Gudrun Himmler

Discussions on the role played by and situation of women in the Third Reich not covered in the other sections. Hosted by Vikki.
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Annelie
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Re: Gudrun Himmler

Post by Annelie » 23 Jun 2011 01:37

Just to show how he contextualizes his subjects.

http://www.lutzfriedel.de/LUTZ-FRIEDEL- ... Frank.html

What do you think of Anne Frank?
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ladycplum
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Re: Gudrun Himmler

Post by ladycplum » 23 Jun 2011 02:39

How do I look at the painting of Anne? Her life has been blackened and blotted out before it had the chance to bloom into full color. I don't care what she says, Gudrun was old enough to know exactly what was going on. Anyone who knows what their father did yet rationalizes it, pushes it aside and consciously justifies everything he did either has a cold heart, a dead heart, or no heart.
"The more I see, the more I know. The more I know, the less I understand"-Paul Weller

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Adam Carr
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Re: Gudrun Himmler

Post by Adam Carr » 23 Jun 2011 04:23

No, I don't think Gudrun Himmler was old enough to know what was going on at the time. How could she have known? Who would have told her? Her real culpability came in the years after the war when she was an adult, and when the truth was fully available. Some of the Nazikinder, such as Martin Bormann Jr and Niklas Frank, were able and willing to accept the truth about the fathers, so there's no reason why she could not have done so.

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Helge
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Re: Gudrun Himmler

Post by Helge » 23 Jun 2011 07:22

http://www.aolnews.com/2011/01/04/marti ... child-sex/
http://www.profil.at/articles/1052/560/ ... liebeswerk

Son of Hitler's Deputy Bormann Accused of Child Sex Abuse
Jan 4, 2011 – 11:14 AM

Martin Bormann Jr., the eldest son of Adolf Hitler's deputy Martin Bormann, has spent decades attempting to atone for his father's sins. He has served as a priest and a Catholic missionary and has lectured in Germany, Austria and Israel on the horrors of the Holocaust.

But Bormann Jr.'s almost saintly reputation is now threatened after he was accused of violently and sexually assaulting young pupils while serving as a teacher at an elite Austrian boarding school in the 1960s. Bormann Jr. has denied any knowledge of the events.

The allegations -- the latest in a flurry of sex abuse charges leveled at members of the Catholic Church in Germany and Austria over the past year -- were made by a 63-year-old former pupil at Salzburg's Heart of Jesus Monastery. The man, named only as Victor M., told Austria's Profil magazine that when he was just 12 years old he was repeatedly raped by Bormann Jr., then a 30-year-old priest.

Bormann was not present at Nuremberg. It was thought he had fled to South America, and he was sentenced to death in absentia. In fact, Hitler's successor was already dead. He had died attempting to flee Hitler's Berlin bunker in 1945, and his remains were discovered in 1972.

Shocked by these revelations, Bormann Jr. abandoned his family's Lutheranism and trained as a Catholic priest. He spent six years as a missionary in the Belgian Congo -- where he was captured by rebels three times -- and was released from the priesthood in 1969 after he was almost killed in a car crash in Germany. Three years later he married a Dominican nun who nursed him following that accident.

When Profil magazine visited Bormann Jr. at an undisclosed location in Germany, he said he could not remember the alleged incidents of abuse. And when shown a photograph of his alleged victim, the 12-year-old Victor M., he responded, "That's a girl."

Martin Bormann Jr. is shown at a seminary in Austria in 1958. The son of Hitler's deputy, he has been accused of violently and sexually assaulting young pupils while teaching at an Austrian boarding school in the 1960s.
The top Nazi's son allegedly warned Victor M. that it was pointless to tell his family about the abuse because "nobody will believe you." Bormann Jr. was right. When Victor M. -- the son of a French nobleman and a former Nazi forced laborer -- told his mother, she casually dismissed his claims.

Victor M., who turned to alcohol to try to erase his memories of those days, isn't alone in accusing Bormann Jr. of brutal abuse. One former pupil interviewed by Profil recalled seeing the schoolmaster hurl a boy against a wall so hard that the child's face was covered in blood. Another claimed Bormann Jr. once knocked a boy unconscious by punching him in the back of the head. He allegedly had the boy doused in cold water and declared, "We will bring the weakling back to life."

But Bormann Jr. wasn't the only alleged abuser at the Heart of Jesus Monastery. One teacher -- dubbed "Joe Bat" for his preferred method of punishment -- reportedly enjoyed pushing his fingers so far up pupils' nostrils that their noses began to bleed. "It still hurts a lot," a 62-year-old former pupil told the magazine, as he recalled his years at the school. "You can see that I cry when I talk about it, even though I've been through psychotherapy."

The Rev. Walter Licklederer, who now serves as head of the Salzburg order, said he was "shaken" by the allegations.

As the son of a high-ranking Nazi, and Hitler's first godson, Bormann Jr. was educated at a similarly brutal institution. He was shipped off to the Nazi Party Academy in Bavaria when he was 10 and stayed there until the collapse of the Third Reich five years later. Speaking to the British magazine The Spectator in 2000, Bormann Jr. described how he first became aware of the horrors of the Nazi regime in the summer of 1944, when he visited the home of Heinrich Himmler's mistress with his mother and sister. She ushered them up to the attic, where they were shown Himmler's "special collection."

"There were special editions of Hitler's 'Mein Kampf' printed on parchment made with skin from the backs of human beings," he told The Spectator. "Then there was a little table and a stool which were partly made from human bones."

At the end of the war, Bormann Jr. -- then a refugee hiding out at an Austrian farm -- saw the first photographs from the concentration camps. Many Germans insisted they were fakes. "But I knew they were real," he said. "I had seen Himmler's furniture."

It was only during the Nuremberg Trials of 1945-46 that Bormann realized the crucial role his father had played in the Holocaust. Witnesses testified that he had ordered the deportation of Dutch Jews to Auschwitz and dismissed Slavs as subhumans. "The Slavs are to work for us," Bormann wrote in a 1942 memo. "In so far as we do not need them, they may die. Slav fertility is not desirable."
Sota ei päätä kuka on oikeassa, vain sen että kuka on jäljellä.
War does not decide who is right but only those who are left.

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Helge
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Re: Gudrun Himmler

Post by Helge » 15 Aug 2011 06:23

Otto Kumm and Gudrun Himmler Burwitz: october 1993

http://www.leon-degrelle.org/achat/prod ... .php?id=21
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Sota ei päätä kuka on oikeassa, vain sen että kuka on jäljellä.
War does not decide who is right but only those who are left.

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Vikki
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Re: Gudrun Himmler

Post by Vikki » 28 Aug 2011 17:16

Posts on Louise Cuyon-Witzschel have been split into a separate topic at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 7&t=181448

~Vikki

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Helge
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Re: Gudrun Himmler

Post by Helge » 16 Oct 2011 22:23

Gudrun Himmler, ca 1930 (U. S. Holocaust Memorial Museum).
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Sota ei päätä kuka on oikeassa, vain sen että kuka on jäljellä.
War does not decide who is right but only those who are left.

Arto O
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Re: Gudrun Himmler

Post by Arto O » 12 Nov 2011 04:44

Thanks Helge,
Very interesting photo of HH, what is his collar insignia?
Cheers
Arto

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von thoma
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Re: Gudrun Himmler

Post by von thoma » 13 Nov 2011 23:39

Arto O wrote: what is his collar insignia?
175px-HimmlerOberfhr.jpg
I think is of the same time.


Photo:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_Himmler
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" The right to believe is the right of those who don't know "

Arto O
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Re: Gudrun Himmler

Post by Arto O » 14 Nov 2011 04:05

Thanks von thoma,
First I was laughing by myself, because I was imaging that it was like Rottenführer stripes. I knew quite surely that it was the Oberführer rank, but then I started to image/hope that it cuold be something else, something not seen before. Because the early SS uniforms changed quite often.
Cheers
Arto

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beamers1
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Re: Gudrun Himmler

Post by beamers1 » 01 Jan 2012 06:46

Helge wrote:Gudrun Himmler, ca 1930 (U. S. Holocaust Memorial Museum).

I have seen this photo sometime ago and have been wanting to know who the girl is in the photo that is holding Gudrun. At first I thought is might be one of Gebhard's (Heinrich's brother)daughters, but I think the girl might be too old...Does anyone have a guess?

Thanks
Reagan
"I know you started with an open mind I realize that." Michael Palin

ladycplum
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Re: Gudrun Himmler

Post by ladycplum » 05 Jan 2012 02:12

I looked at Marga and thought "I'll get your my pretty, and your little dog too!"
"The more I see, the more I know. The more I know, the less I understand"-Paul Weller

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Bugra Sahin
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Re: Gudrun Himmler

Post by Bugra Sahin » 24 Mar 2012 00:27

Adam Carr wrote:Well if she is reading, ich hoffe, dass sie fühlt sich gerade eine bisschen Reue für die Millionen der Leute ihr Vater und ihre Freunde haben ermordet. Aber, ich glaube, dass es für das zu spät ist.


Well, look, Adam, let me tell a couple of words.

Heinrich Himmler might be a terrible man himself. But we humanbeings are just like machines, we are being programmed in our childhood.

This old woman, had a father who probably was a good father. Everything he did was right, and Uncle Hitler was just like a god, for years.

Suddenly everything she believed became the most unwanted things in whole world.

This old woman's behaviour can not make me blaming her. She only has an everlasting trauma in my opinion.

You think she never thought what you wrote before ? But putting the weight of what her father did on her shoulders will not help anyone. You cant expect her to think in the way you or me do, because he was her father. Because her homeland was 3rd Reich since she was Himmler's daughter, she lived the ideology way heavier than the public.

Your thought may be that nazis are evil. But if you judge her with your own opinion, that wouldnt be fair. You have to see the conditions of the times she raised before starting to judge her.

Bugra Sahin

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Helge
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Re: Gudrun Himmler

Post by Helge » 04 May 2012 00:16

Gudrun and Heinrich
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Sota ei päätä kuka on oikeassa, vain sen että kuka on jäljellä.
War does not decide who is right but only those who are left.

ladycplum
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Re: Gudrun Himmler

Post by ladycplum » 04 May 2012 20:53

Helge wrote:Gudrun and Heinrich
I think I actually recognize Albert Bormann in there...wonder where Marga is....
"The more I see, the more I know. The more I know, the less I understand"-Paul Weller

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