1945 Lost German girl

Discussions on the role played by and situation of women in the Third Reich not covered in the other sections. Hosted by Vikki.
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Terry Duncan
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Re: 1945 Lost German girl

Post by Terry Duncan » 18 Sep 2019 20:14

Coming to this topic a little late to say the least, I have looked up various versions of the film online and done some research into the possible location the film was shot. As was pointed out in the first couple of pages, the girl is described as SS girl soldier in the shoot listing, and indicates the film was shot on the road from Pilsen to Prague right at the end of the war, indeed on the final day if I am correct about the location. What we can say for certain is that the film unit is with the US army, and has been moving east. The large town with many people in the streets could well be Pilsen, it is the only major town in the area. We know the US 16th Armored Division had liberated Pilsen (Plzen) and pushed several miles east from there.

http://www.globeatwar.com/article/big-r ... vakia-1945

From this we can also be sure the German troops are heading roughly SW from Prague to try and surrender to US forces rather than Russians. In the film, at 08:45 the sign seems to suggest 78km from Prague and what seems to be a 7 from Pilsen under it. This has led me to two points, one where there is a modern road junction (on Google Earth listed as Red 5 and Blue 605 and Blue 26) and what seems to be a new factory complex which makes it rather unrecognizable now, or another point exactly on the 78/7km distance marks just outside the village of Tymakov. The road here has a ditch and bank each side, although the posts have vanished is still has the same sort of trees there on both sides of the road, which is fairly straight and has woods in the background, as well as a path across a field that looks as though it would have once intersected the road in the distance as seen behind the girl. She is carrying a pack of cards. One video has used a reverse image to restore the injured eye to more normal looks;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crpXnuV4OCU

This seems to be the full film, including what appears to be the aftermath of roadside executions at some points. The girl is seen at two points, once walking along the road (8:28 - 9:11), and then sitting on the bank of a ditch with two older German soldiers (9:29 - 9:41). Hopefully this may help anyone, I have not read everything in this thread as it is a little too long, but I would be interested in what others think of my assessment here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRhXJs9TmVc

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wm
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Re: 1945 Lost German girl

Post by wm » 19 Sep 2019 20:47

Terry Duncan wrote:
18 Sep 2019 10:21
You might find it more useful to quote Article 24 of The Hague Convention 1907 as the background to the 1929 Geneva Convention, but even then, Articles 3 and 4 of the Geneva Convention do contain enough useful information to show what is and is not required;
That's really isn't a problem.
Before the uprising, the Poles drafted proper rules of engagements for their fighters, the rules mandated "a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance," and the fighters were wearing them.

History1 is offended by a picture of a few Polish generals standing in trench coats (because it was raining) far away from the frontlines - and without visible "a fixed distinctive sign."

Of course, they didn't have to wear them - according to laws of war, and according to common sense.

history1
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Re: 1945 Lost German girl

Post by history1 » 20 Sep 2019 16:48

wm wrote:
19 Sep 2019 20:47
[...]
That's really isn't a problem.
Before the uprising, the Poles drafted proper rules of engagements for their fighters, the rules mandated "a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance," and the fighters were wearing them.

History1 is offended by a picture of a few Polish generals standing in trench coats (because it was raining) far away from the frontlines - and without visible "a fixed distinctive sign."

Of course, they didn't have to wear them - according to laws of war, and according to common sense.
1. It´s clear that commanders of a militia unit are considered fighters, even when they don´t fight in the trench.
2. Far away from the frontlines at their headquarters DURING the Warsaw Uprise. ROFL
BTW, which frontline you´re talking about?
3. Your Polish common sense is partisans hiding within civilians in plain clothes and later complaining about killed civilians who were unlawful fighters participating in an international conflict.

lartiste
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Re: 1945 Lost German girl

Post by lartiste » 20 Sep 2019 20:18

This has been one of the best topic of this board, mods please what does not relate to the lost girl. Guys, please start your own new thread for your off topic discussion.

history1
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Re: 1945 Lost German girl

Post by history1 » 21 Sep 2019 10:06

I reported the last posts already and asked to delete/transfer them. Sadly Terry Duncan (the responsible admin/mod) even choosed to stretch this OT-discussion instead to erase it.
I´m out from here.

coin123
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Re: 1945 Lost German girl

Post by coin123 » 23 Sep 2019 17:41

I to am interested in who this girl was,

Stephan
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Re: 1945 Lost German girl

Post by Stephan » 29 Sep 2019 14:03

Terry Duncan wrote:
18 Sep 2019 20:14
Coming to this topic a little late to say the least, I have looked up various versions of the film online and done some research into the possible location the film was shot. As was pointed out in the first couple of pages, the girl is described as SS girl soldier in the shoot listing, and indicates the film was shot on the road from Pilsen to Prague right at the end of the war, indeed on the final day if I am correct about the location. What we can say for certain is that the film unit is with the US army, and has been moving east. The large town with many people in the streets could well be Pilsen, it is the only major town in the area. We know the US 16th Armored Division had liberated Pilsen (Plzen) and pushed several miles east from there.

http://www.globeatwar.com/article/big-r ... vakia-1945

From this we can also be sure the German troops are heading roughly SW from Prague to try and surrender to US forces rather than Russians. In the film, at 08:45 the sign seems to suggest 78km from Prague and what seems to be a 7 from Pilsen under it. This has led me to two points, one where there is a modern road junction (on Google Earth listed as Red 5 and Blue 605 and Blue 26) and what seems to be a new factory complex which makes it rather unrecognizable now, or another point exactly on the 78/7km distance marks just outside the village of Tymakov. The road here has a ditch and bank each side, although the posts have vanished is still has the same sort of trees there on both sides of the road, which is fairly straight and has woods in the background, as well as a path across a field that looks as though it would have once intersected the road in the distance as seen behind the girl. She is carrying a pack of cards. One video has used a reverse image to restore the injured eye to more normal looks;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crpXnuV4OCU

This seems to be the full film, including what appears to be the aftermath of roadside executions at some points. The girl is seen at two points, once walking along the road (8:28 - 9:11), and then sitting on the bank of a ditch with two older German soldiers (9:29 - 9:41). Hopefully this may help anyone, I have not read everything in this thread as it is a little too long, but I would be interested in what others think of my assessment here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRhXJs9TmVc
Ah, a pack of cards. You are sure of this? This is an irregularity. Of course, its difficult to take any conclusion about somebody whom is deprived everything save her life and her clothes, beaten up and in shock.
Still, its an irregularity to observe. Can we have any conclusions from this? For whom would a deck of cards be worth extra much??

Early in the thread I had a guess she could be a gypsie foretelling peoples future for money... I suspect this post was taken away as a bad joke.
For a fortune teller a pack of cards is her professional tools. But a gypsie girl wouldnt be into the SS nor travelling in company with SS men in a moment where the self travelling with SS men gave extra dangers... Even if the most dangerous was apparently to be SS man but hiding as a civilian - as we saw on the clip, it was these pretending civilian, whom were grossly executed on spot. While these going into POW could be beaten up, but seldom murdered. As our girl, for example.

So this idea of a gypsie girl, with her somewhat darkish looks and her prfessional tools, although intriguing, cant be correct.

Were there others whom used cards professionally or as a dear hobby??
A renown bridgeplayer? A fond player of some other card game? I believe in Germany they often play a card game named Skat.
A poker player??

Of these proposals only a bridge player could be a good trace. As good bridge players were usually wellknown from tournaments or advanced club play.

Or just something saved from the rubble, easy to carry, and thus, taken on...

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Re: 1945 Lost German girl

Post by TedjeX » 29 Sep 2019 15:59

And Still Have,nt found what i,m Looking For!

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Terry Duncan
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Re: 1945 Lost German girl

Post by Terry Duncan » 29 Sep 2019 20:04

I am pretty much positive it is a pack of cards, such things become valuable when all else has broken down as you can gamble with them for food, valuables, even weapons and clothes. To be honest, I would look to see if there is a register of POWs picked up by the US forces in the area of Pilsen on the last day of the war. This can be narrowed down slightly to certain villages by the 78 marker, I presume it is 78km from Prague but I am not an expert in Czech road markings, though it is one of the few clues we do have to go on. Also, I would like to note that after looking at the film further, the sign reads 78/17 and not 78/7 as I previously said. This still leaves the area I first noted as in the same area, but a few other villages are in the catchment range, though on most the ground falls away to one side of the road or others and thus rules them out. We know the area, and we know the film unit that took the film, so someone with access to the US records may be able to see names and details of prisoners picked up in this area on this date. The last time you see the girl she is holding a pack to her eye like a compress with water or ice that we use now to reduce swelling, and she seems to be smiling and interacting with the men she is sitting with. I would say this indicates they are now POWs of the US forces, and are probably relieved not to have been captured by the Soviet forces.

The black top she is wearing looks like a sweater or long sleaved vest type garment rather than a formal shirt of blouse, were such items issued to the German forces or SS in particular? If not she may be wearing the best clothes she could find either from her own clothes or looting, a mix and match of neccessity? The fact she seems to start off alone rather than with other sevice personel and does not seem intimidated by being filmed approaching what was probably a fairly sizable group of armed men may well indicate a luckless civilian who has nothing to hide, and if this is the only footage of her, then she was obviously of little importance to film as could be expected of someone of high rank or status for propaganda. As far as looking for needles in haystacks goes, this is likely rather like looking for a needle in haystack that was scattered over most of Europe almost 75 years ago, so unless there is something like a list of prisoners that can be linked to the location of the film unit it is unlikely to be solved now.

Details of the film itself exist in US records and it was restored by Stephen Spielberg it seems, so if anyone knows who to contact at the US records office in question then we might have more to go on if they can provide more info?

mars0367
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Re: 1945 Lost German girl

Post by mars0367 » 30 Sep 2019 14:10

It has been pretty well established that the girl walking towards the camera was staged. And it is pretty obvious in looking at it. But as usual conjecture reigns.

And why not - nothing else remains.

Mars0367
By and large, language is a tool for concealing the truth. - George Carlin RIP
So is the above statement true or not - Mars
Truth will out - Shakespeare

Stephan
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Re: 1945 Lost German girl

Post by Stephan » 30 Sep 2019 15:16

mars0367 wrote:
30 Sep 2019 14:10
It has been pretty well established that the girl walking towards the camera was staged. And it is pretty obvious in looking at it. But as usual conjecture reigns.

And why not - nothing else remains.

Mars0367
Wait, what where was it established as staged?

Anyway, there are several types of staging, from totally fake with paint and everything, to simply asking one of the fleeing refugees / future POW´s, to marsch again as she did a moment ago, so the camera could follow her closely in a comfortable way...

stello
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Re: 1945 Lost German girl

Post by stello » 04 Oct 2019 21:21

Hello Forum,
regarding the "pack of card" please see post #473 (21 december 2010) on page 32 of this topic:

viewtopic.php?p=1539921#p1539921

Cheers!

stello
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Re: 1945 Lost German girl

Post by stello » 04 Oct 2019 21:31

...and if is anyone interested in a brief summary -from 2008 to 2012- i wrote about this thread take a look at the attached pdf file (post #538, 3 january 2012):
AFH _ 1945 Lost german girl.pdf
Stefano
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EasyRoller
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Re: 1945 Lost German girl

Post by EasyRoller » 31 Oct 2019 15:32

I never considered those playing cards in her hands - even in the hardest times who would want playing cards ? I always thought they were personal family/friend pictures of hers, something she's trying to preserve.

It was not unusual for soldiers to show pictures of their wives and children to lessen the danger of being shot. Surrendering to a foreign army and not knowing what might happen, every bit of sympathy can help. My father said there were huge numbers of German and other soldiers surrendering to the US and British by late spring, trying to get away from the Soviets, and showing their family pictures.

Her pictures look like they could have been what was commonly called "Carte de Visite" prints with fancy scrolling along the edges. Well, that's my 'guess'.

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Re: 1945 Lost German girl

Post by EasyRoller » 31 Oct 2019 15:53

Forgot to add it could also be money. But in the film close-up of her clutching whatever it is, she then lowers her hands down out of sight of the camera while looking down, then seems to pull something out of what she's holding and raises whatever she peeled off up to her damaged left brow.

Then in the second pic of her sitting with the boys, she raises her hand with something similar to what she was holding earlier, wrapped in some type of linen or gauze, to her damaged brow. I sort of doubt it's an ice pack, more like a simply gentle pressing against the swelling. Again, an interpretation.

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