1945 Lost German girl

Discussions on the role played by and situation of women in the Third Reich not covered in the other sections. Hosted by Vikki.
Gradus
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Re: 1945 Lost German girl

Post by Gradus » 31 Jul 2022 19:02

I also found this text (at https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/Rev ... 5-2458859/?):

'The LGG was a member of a group of about ten Waffen-SS " Bhmen " wearing civilian clothes and desperately trying to reach the American lines. My great-uncle remembers that, when arriving at their level, the young woman burst in the middle of the road, making signs so that they stop, which they did. So she asked if they knew where were the Americans. He remembers perfectly her fascinating beauty in spite of the knocks she received in the face, her youth and desperate energy. Other men were set back and looked exhausted and discouraged, being afraid of encountering again partisans. My great-uncle and his friends advised them to wait for the main column coming from Prague as getting themselves involved to it. The fact is that Weiddinger orders were strict: only the military units belonging to 2. SS-Panzer-Division were concerned by the protocol of surrender. The motorcyclists gave to the group of fugitives their last rations and restarted in the direction of Rokycany.'

wirklich
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Re: 1945 Lost German girl

Post by wirklich » 31 Jul 2022 19:29

Gradus wrote:
31 Jul 2022 18:03
Has anyone ever checked this: https://www.ww2.dk/Airfields%20-%20Czechoslovakia.pdf ? It's got all the operational Luftwaffe units listed as well plus the years they were active there. There's been a discussion before about the pants but those are indeed female Luftwaffe pants. There is a Pinterest account with Flak Helferinnen as well: https://www.pinterest.com/AlliesAxisWom ... lferinnen/ .
And excuses for when I post something that has been posted already..
It does not matter if you repost something. You may find something new.
post # 2433 gives some detail about what she was wearing.
From about post # 2420 forward you may find interesting.

wirklich
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Re: 1945 Lost German girl

Post by wirklich » 31 Jul 2022 19:35

Interest really took off when all the known film footage was released and uploaded to the internet.
For some unknown reason Thames did not use all of it in The World At War.
That was when she really stood out.

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CarlosXander
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Re: 1945 Lost German girl

Post by CarlosXander » 05 Aug 2022 22:54

hello forum
I recently came across a book that is in digital format entitled "German Women's Life Writing and the Holocaust
Complicity and Gender in the Second World War" in one of its chapters makes a summary of the story of Lore Vogt from the book "Zur Problematik von Soldatinnen.." by Jutta Rüdiger among its paragraphs I found a description that she (Lore Vogt) at Being in an SS vehicle is treated as an SS, it also describes that the US soldiers treated as SS the women who traveled in the SS vehicles, who dressed in men's clothes and obviously those who had the tattoo in her right armpit the blood group, in this story you can presume why LGG was called SS Girl by Captain Oren W. Haglund it will be because of her clothing or when she is accompanied by other members of the SS or perhaps she will carry that tattoo
I leave the paragraph where she appears and the address of the book so that they can read and discuss it
Cheers
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digital book link
https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/ge ... DBDCC0D718

Gradus
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Re: 1945 Lost German girl

Post by Gradus » 06 Aug 2022 12:22

As far I can tell it was concluded (based on vague pics) that LGG did not look like Lore Vogt on those pics and it was not here.. But the paragraph could very well describe something that did happen to her..

Then the 8 dead SS soldiers; in the Fischer report (https://dspace5.zcu.cz/bitstream/11025/ ... ischer.pdf, page 146) the following is mentioned: 'However, German soldiers mostly surrendered without a fight,
knowing that they were going to milder American prison camps. In large
numbers, they fled to West Bohemia, in the direction from Prague, running
away from the advancing Red Army. Yet some of them wanted to escape from
captivity, perhaps to try to get home or at least to Germany on their own. But
Americans were uncompromising in case of an attempted escape and fired at
fleeing captives. This happened, for example, when 2,000 prisoners of war
were brought to the Pilsen barracks (which served as lodgings for captives
until POW camps were built near the city). When passing through Ejpovice,
eight Germans attempted to escape, but the American guards shot and killed
all of them.'

From what I read there this happened in the village of Ejpovice, not in the fields where LGG was walking. So the footage of the battered German soldiers in the fields must have be something else. The dead boy at the bridge however could have been one of the 8 dead SS 'soldiers' (can't call a young boy like that a soldier really.

Then there is a book called 'Die Flakhelfer: Wie aus Hitlers jüngsten Parteimitgliedern Deutschlands führende Demokraten wurden' written by Malte Herwig. In the book description is mentioned 'Malte Herwig hat die 1945 auf abenteuerliche Weise gerettete Mitgliederkartei der Nazi-Partei gründlich gesichtet und ist auf viele bekannte Namen gestoßen.'. So Malte Herwig had access to a list with all the members of the NSDAP from 1933 through 1945. (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_von ... edsnummern). Now if LGG was indeed a Flak Helferin then she was most likely drafted from the Bund Deutscher Mädel (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bund_Deutscher_M%C3%A4del). There are over 10 million entries in the NSDAP list and I figure the members of the Bund Deutscher Mädel could be in there too. I am not sure how detailed this list is though. Will try to see if I can find any contact details for Malte Herwig.

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CarlosXander
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Re: 1945 Lost German girl

Post by CarlosXander » 06 Aug 2022 21:41

hello
I think that the book “Na demarkační čáře, Americká armáda v Čechách v friction 1945” where it tells of these events generalizes the facts since they went from the curve on highway 605 to the bridge where the town of Ejpovice ends, it is likely that LGG was attacked in that curve or at the end of it where most of the people beaten on the side of that road can be seen, it also names garden 89 or plot 89 which is precisely where LGG is apparently filmed sitting with other men and that sector is where Lore Vogt and her companions arrived on May 9
Cheers

Spavy
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Re: 1945 Lost German girl

Post by Spavy » 08 Aug 2022 00:20

Hi, I'm Italian and thanks to this forum I got interested in the story of the LLG. I found a written testimony from Anna Spieckermans, one of these Flakwaffenhelferinnen who was assigned to the Pilsen area between 1944 and 1945.
At these link you can read some pages and download them in PDF:

https://www.proquest.com/docview/1300490552

ignacioosacar1
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Re: 1945 Lost German girl

Post by ignacioosacar1 » 11 Aug 2022 15:40

Ciao Spavy,

Welcome to the forum. Yours is a good contribution to the "Flakhelferinen" theory. I must say that in my oppinion, it is a very probable one.

Cheers

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CarlosXander
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Re: 1945 Lost German girl

Post by CarlosXander » 16 Aug 2022 23:39

bentleyhugh wrote:
18 May 2022 06:46
CarlosXander wrote:
19 Feb 2022 16:53
my theory I keep insisting that in this part of the filming it is LGG with her boyfriend/husband or lover, it is her for me since she has her hair tied, it is true that it is not the clothes that we see later but it is clear that the clothes that alarece in the row is not hers and apart from the older woman she is the only woman who appears in the group who were later beaten and killed, it is my theory
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Yes, this is it. LGG was trying to look like a male and it was known that retreating German forces would do this to hide women from view for a host of reasons. To take it a step further the group they were marching with was stopped by the Czechs to look for SS. The small group of SS officers trying to blend into this group made a run for it and there was a pursuit, shoot out, and maybe even hostages taken. These details were known and is was also known that a small group of SS broke off from a larger column trying to flee. These are in Czech police reports. I believe the Germans off camera were what was left of this group. They prob surrendered or made it to an American unit. LGG had injuries that look like a rifle butt hit her, so I think she was not killed intentionally but let go. To positively identify her it will be necessary to identify someone in close proximity to her that day and work backwards.
hello
something that I noticed at this time of that filming and to further reinforce my sayings, is that in that filming you can see a shine based on her hair, as if she were wearing a buckle or something that makes her hair shine, which What makes me think that person is a woman

ImageImageImage

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https://imgur.com/oyy9LEv
https://imgur.com/ujgMuke

wirklich
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Re: 1945 Lost German girl

Post by wirklich » 17 Aug 2022 10:26

That is a very good observation
Unfortunately, it is a defect in the film.
If you look at the tank to their left, you can see 2 light specks in the sky. One bright and one very faint.
They are easiest to see against the sky or something not moving like a building.
You can see more light specks in the rest of this scene and the following town scene.
https://www.quora.com/Why-are-there-whi ... der-movies
https://collections.ushmm.org/search/catalog/irn1003536 1:42:19:00-end of film.
I would suggest having very experienced female hairstylists (stylists that do women's hair) look at the men's hair in the film. Then have them look at the hair of the person in question. Then ask them if they think the hair looks masculine or feminine compared to the known men.
Yes, I still see a feminine quality to the hair.

CraigM
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Re: 1945 Lost German girl

Post by CraigM » 17 Aug 2022 14:47

wirklich wrote:
17 Aug 2022 10:26
Unfortunately, it is a defect in the film.
As a cinema projectionist for many years, screening 35mm and 70mm films, I agree with wirklich. The "flash" is not a reflection from the sun of something in her hair. It's a single frame of film with emulsion damage. I know what they look like and they look like that! They tend to be a pinky/red colour because that's the last layer of colour on the film base (the other colours layered above the red), so the last to be scratched off when there's damage. There are plenty more of them in that film, even in that scene, if you look hard enough.

I also agree its a woman.
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wirklich
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Re: 1945 Lost German girl

Post by wirklich » 03 Sep 2022 23:56

Seven pictures in the ditch. page 1.
Are the woman's seven movements as awkward as they look?
Have you ever had a minor upper arm injury? The kind that makes you keep your arm close to your body or even use the opposite arm to support the injured arm. Something as simple as lifting a cloth to your face can make you do this. Perhaps a strained bicep muscle from pulling on something or someone too hard, or someone pulling too hard on you. Or her.
Just a minor injury that takes about an hour or two to bother you.
The womans left arm appears to be injured. The left side of her face is injured.
All of her left arm movements while sitting in the ditch appear to be accomplished by rotating her hand or by bending her arm at the elbow with very little use of upper arm muscles or movement
This really is an awkward way to do this. A normal movement would be to lift your arm and rotate it slightly to the left for your fingers to follow the hair part line. Unless your arm hurts to lift it, so you keep it close to your body and support it with the other arm and lean forward and turn your head.
It appears she is using her right arm to support her left.

1. She holds both arms close to her body and holds her left hand with her right hand.
In her left hand she holds a folded cloth to the left side of her face.
She turns and slightly tilts her head forward and to the right and rubs her face on the rag.
She does not move her left arm to rub the cloth on her face.
ditch1.png
2. She turns and slightly tilts her head back to the left to look at the rag.
ditch2.png
3. She rotates and opens her left hand dropping the cloth into her right hand.
ditch3.png
4. Without lifting her left arm, she places her open left hand to the left side of her face.
ditch4.png
5. By tilting her head forward and to the right she rubs her fingers across her head where her hair parts. Without lifting her left arm.
ditch5.png
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wirklich
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Re: 1945 Lost German girl

Post by wirklich » 04 Sep 2022 00:01

Page 2.
6. She turns her head back to the left, bends her left arm forward at the left elbow to hold the cloth in both hands again.
ditch6.png
7. While holding the cloth in both hands she bends her arms at the elbows to her legs.
ditch7.png
You can do the proofreading.
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CarlosXander
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Re: 1945 Lost German girl

Post by CarlosXander » 04 Sep 2022 17:33

hello
notice that his left hand is very swollen, it is very likely that his left hand has been stepped on or he is trying to defend himself, since it is the same place of his injury on his face, perhaps once relaxed it will lead to pain, something that note it is perhaps that she is left-handed since in the film that she is facing the front she only uses her left arm, or perhaps it is a reflection of the situation
Cheers

ImageImage

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CarlosXander
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Re: 1945 Lost German girl

Post by CarlosXander » 26 Sep 2022 16:22

Greetings forum


I recently finished translating the book "Zur Problematik von Soldatinnen..." by Jutta Rüdiger in that book you can get an idea of what happened to LGG after its filming, although they don't name it or say anything about it, you can trace 4 destinies so one of them had to be the one LGG took.
From page 58 to 75 it narrates what happened from the 8th of May 1945 to the final events.

In the chapter 1.2 BERICHT ÜBER DEN EINSANA ALS FLAKWAFFENHELFERIN Von Lore Vogt

It should be noted that this group left on May 8 at 9:00 p.m. from Prague

On page 58 and 59 Image
it narrates all the chaos that was the arrival of that tide of people to that sector that names it as 16 km from Pilsen near Rokycany (named as Ropican)
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(here there is a curious fact it narrates the arrest of the Reichsprotektor K.H. Frank who was in front of them (it can be seen in the film). Frank who was in front of them (it can be seen in the film), where she was is a truck where you can see the blonde woman who identified herself in the photo of the SS-Alarm-Flakabeilung group "Prague"
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establishing that Lore Vogt and the author were travelling in that vehicle).

On page 59 it is narrated that they arrived at the site at 5 pm and the great fear they had of the US soldiers Image
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when they went to fetch water from the stream that is next to highway 605.

On its pages 60 and 61 it narrates what was the first days and night in that sector
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On page 60 it narrates that the women formed a circle surrounded by another larger circle of men, a way that the men protected the women, this can be seen in the footage in this circle of women, it is mentioned that there were military girls dressed in civilian ImageImageImage
will LLG be among them???

And the Helferinnen in another circle Image
, many girls cry, they make fires with whatever there is, the ground is damp so they get wet and cold, in the morning the sun warms them and they dry their clothes

On page 61 the departure of the civilians Image

that I described in if LGG were a civilian is narrated, the departure of the Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe troops leaving the SS behind (125)
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is also narrated, here it is confirmed that they are cataloged from the SS, can another branch be made here, did LLG go with them or did they stay with the rest of the girls? It is more likely that when she was identified with the SS she stayed, here is a curious fact that tells of 4 women who dressed in civilian clothes left with their troops, it must be said that LGG was in military clothes, not Helferinnen, and here again Could I continue the question about his clothes or did he stay? There are no answers for this, it is only presumed that this would have consequences later

An important fact is narrated here, that here the women of the SS-Alarm-Flakabeilung "Prag" are separated, since they were cataloged as SS belonging to the Waffen-SS, also implying that all the women who were identified as SS would remain in that field or sector this is where if LGG was classified as SS it would have to stay with these women,
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also the change in attitude towards the US Army troops since they are allowed to approach, sit and share in the fires the songs, it is also narrated that they are allowed to go to the nearby forest to look for water and relieve themselves
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here again it is narrated that “The men of the Wehrmacht and the Luftwaffe had been transported far away. He had been transported away. Only the Waffen-SS were still there, a few thousand of them!”
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it is here if LGG was cataloged as SS, she would be linked to this group of women


On pages 62 and 63, the experiences in that place continue with terrible consequences
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On page 62 it is narrated that a Czech delegation demands the surrender of the entire SS-Alarm-Flakabeilung "Prag" since they were part of the conflict that occurred in Prague, which the commander of the US group's camp refuses arguing that they would be sent with them to Japan
On page 62 it is narrated that they are allowed to gather with other Waffen-SS men, they are also forbidden to enter the forest since there are Czech partisans in those forests trapping people (the disappearance of a girl is narrated but she is found few later without damage). It is narrated that in that group there are 100 girls,
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they are allowed to go to a nearby stream to be able to bathe and refresh themselves, which is half an hour away from walking, on the sixth day the food runs out, so everything that remains has to be rationed.
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It is here that an unfortunate event is narrated, a group of girls who belong to the Bayer group are sent to Pilsen to be examined, the rest of the girls, believing that they would also be sent to Pilsen, wait anxiously with hope, the next day the girls return with serious face and tears in their eyes they say that in the exam in their papers by their blood group they were identified as Waffen-SS with a seal and that that night 2 of them were raped (clarification: who they were is not specified)
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On pages 64 and 65, what happened on those days continues to be narrated, but that they would be transferred to another place
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Page 64 narrates the hunger and sunstroke that the girls suffered when they were in the open field trying to cheer each other up, the replacement of the US soldiers by others is narrated , a soldier who had fraternized with them says goodbye of everyone taking off their case and saying that it will be sent to Japan , the change of guards brought new changes , the next day the men were separated from the women , the women were sent to a wooded area , a guard was placed on them so that they did not talk to the men and there they are notified that all of them will be sent to Pilsen and they are immediately given food rations at 7:00 am they are put on trucks and transferred to Pilsen the men too but they are transferred
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On page 65 the arrival of the girls in Pilsen is narrated, when they went down they were sent to a tent, her papers are checked and they are given another paper, they are sent to some barracks and the men were sent to a open field, immediately they are given more rations of more abundant food and here is the date when this happened Sunday May 21, 1945, 12 days had passed since that
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Clarification: it should be mentioned that at that time and place LGG was identified and interrogated, for which her true data would have to be in those papers, for which the name that emerges from her would have to be in those papers and that is why if the name Lore/Lara Bauer is not there, it is not her, since her registered name appeared

On pages 66 and 67 the life of the girls in the barracks is narrated, how they organized, cleaned etc etc, it is mentioned again that they are identified as an SS unit
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On pages 68 and 69 it is on these pages that mention is made of the interrogations and identification of the girls and again what is lived in the barracks
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On page 68 it is narrated that the girls were confined to cells and their rations were reduced to a minimum, the interrogations of the girls began continuously and they were all identified as SS, paper after paper was filled out, the girls began to get sick, a scurvy pandemic broke out for which many girls began to lose their teeth (why they were sent to cells and their diet was reduced is to physically break them during the interrogation, they also made them go through the camps of the men they lived at out in caves showing them that if they don't talk it would be worse for them)
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Here we make a parenthesis and it is that the narration mentions the amount of paperwork that the girls had to do and how they were identified, this means that if LGG was with them that identification is there, this makes LGG have another name since the name of Lara/Lore Bauer would have to be in the records or unless she was a civilian they were sent to Germany earlier

On page 69 he narrates a fact that we could divide this story again and it is that he mentions that the US soldiers handed over soldiers and girls who were in civilian clothes to a Czech Legion
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LGG was the entrance to the Czechs? It must be said that LGG was not in civilian clothes when she was filmed, she put on the civilian clothes that were mentioned before, unfortunately it is not mentioned what happened to those people, the only possibility is that there is nothing of LGG after the filming and it may have been her luck or that she is still with these women in Pilsen

the consequences for these women were narrated on page 118 in the book "Fighter Aces of the Luftwaffe in World War 2" by Philip Kaplan where the ace of the Luftwaffe Erich Hartmann comments that a group of Women who were in Pilsen were handed over to the Russian army and all were brutally raped, then they would be deported to the Gulag inside the Soviet Union, if they survived the confinement or torment they would return in 1955
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clarification: it is not known why Captain Oren W. Haglund identified LGG as SS, if it was because of his clothes, because he accompanied a member of the SS or because he had a tattoo on his right armpit with the blood group (the members of the Waffen-SS had their blood group tattooed on their right armpit)

The rest of the narration again focuses on what the girls do in the barracks after the interrogations.
On pages 70 and 71, the narration of the girls in the barracks continues, but this time they start working for the US in maintenance and housework
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On page 70 it is narrated that the food rations improve, becoming more abundant again, the girls began to do cleaning, laundry, ironing and other things at the US Army barracks which were paid with various food
On page 71 the narration of what happens in the barracks continues, here they find out about all the places that the Soviets took and the conditions that Germany is in
On pages 72 and 73, the fate of the girls is narrated and everything that led to that movement
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On page 72 an event is narrated that changes the events there of the girls, the Pilsen and all that sector will be occupied by the Russians and the US army would have to evacuate and take everyone with them, they do a lot of paperwork to the girls for their transportation, another narration on that page comments that all those who were cataloged as SS were immediately changed as members of the Luftwaffe so all of them will be able to leave there, here perhaps if LGG was there, their SS identification would change
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On page 73 the entire movement that occurred is narrated and most importantly only the women would be liberated (the men would be taken to camps within Germany occupied by Western allies) and the date when this happened, July 4, 1945 ,
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perhaps LGG was released on that date

On pages 74 and 75, the entire journey of the girls towards their liberation is narrated and a fact that again divides the story.
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On page 74 it is narrated that the girls were separated when they got into the vehicles but they were all taken to the same place at 4 pm they crossed into Germany and at 9 pm all the girls were left to their own devices and free in the town of Bayreuth ( 147)
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LGG was released with them? perhaps and most likely if she was there

On page 75 a fact that divides this story is narrated and that is that 3 of the girls (one of them is Lore Vogt) are sent to Regensburg by mistake,
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unfortunately mention of these 3 girls nothing else, it is mentioned to others, in the narration it is mentioned that they all got on the transport including other members who were not in their group and the question LGG was there and was sent to that place? we won't be able to know
From here the book narrates all the experience of the author during her release and meeting with her relatives and in another chapter what happened to Lore Vogt in Regensburg who were released together with all the women in January 1946

Only these 3 women are mentioned, it must be clarified that these women traveled in trucks to their release but somewhere in Germany one of the trucks where these 3 women were were destined for that camp, so it follows that in that truck there would have been more women, what happened in that field is not described, in a video that shows the conditions that the women were in, it is mentioned that in that field there was a large outbreak of typhus due to which some women fell ill and died, it is due to the lack of information from her that makes this destination have a "maybe" but nothing is confirmed

In this book you can extract the 4 possible destinations of LGG

The first that she was a civilian (by her DAF identification) which she remained with the civilians until her deportation to the border with Germany along with all those people of German ethnicity

The second she was listed as SS for which she suffered the same fate as the author of the book, she would stay in Ejpovice until May 21 and then be transferred to Pilsen where she would be identified and then on July 4, 1945 she I would be released

The third and perhaps most tragic, she for her clothes would be handed over to the Czechs and this handed over to the Russians where she would spend terrible hardships and if she survived that and the Gulag would return in 1955/1956, this fate is made likely by the lack of information her

The fourth and last would be that by mistake she was sent to the women's detention camp in Ragensbur. Germany (like Lore Vogt) and would be released in January 1946 like the other destination as there is no information about her it is not known if she survived the Typhus outbreak or other reasons

Unfortunately all these destination there is no evidence or data

Cheers

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