1945 Lost German girl

Discussions on the role played by and situation of women in the Third Reich not covered in the other sections. Hosted by Vikki.
wirklich
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Re: 1945 Lost German girl

Post by wirklich » 20 Dec 2022 09:59

CarlosXander wrote:
17 Dec 2022 15:01
Curiosity
hello forum while looking for information I came across the history of the 244th Field Artiillry Battalion, this group reached the town of Susice Czechoslovakia in 1945, the curiosity is that this unit was the one that had Piper L-4 Grasshopper for exploration and brought me to the mind the image of the Piper that is observed in the filming of LGG where it is observed flying over at the moment that LGG is filmed from the front, which very possibly was one of these planes of that unit, I leave the link to the digital book which has many maps of the time as well as several photos of that time.
As an extra curiosity 2 of those Piper L-4 Grasshopper were donated to the Czech government
regards

Digital book
https://244thfieldartillerybattalion.co ... -1945-may/

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Image of the Piper L-4 Grasshopper in Susice
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one of the many maps in the book that shows the progress
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Several photos of the Piper L-4 Grasshopper donated to the Czech government
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Well done, Carlos!

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CarlosXander
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Re: 1945 Lost German girl

Post by CarlosXander » 29 Jan 2023 18:14

hello forum
One question that I asked myself was why did the group of German soldiers where LGG was, leave before the end of the confrontation in Prague? The possible answer seems to be in the book by Max Hastings "Armageddon" (the defeat of Germany 1944-1945) where there is a story where it is commented that on May 6, 1945 the Wehrmacht that were in Czechoslovakia was rumored to that Anglo-American troops were arming the Wehrmacht army to face the Soviets, and it would be implied that this group, made up of more than 2000 German soldiers, left earlier to join the approaching Americans and establish a kind of resistance until the arrival of more elements, this would also explain why they took their "women", here it is also explained that when this group met the Americans they were immediately treated as prisoners and separating the Wehrmacht from the SS for their captivity, this would be reported to the superiors who were in Prague and the surrender order was given and since there was no other alternative to mobilize as soon as possible to the American lines to receive r better treatment than as captives of the Soviets, this would be a curiosity, a perhaps explanation
regards

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Translation
On May 6, a rumor spread among their own—as well as throughout the Wehrmacht—that the Anglo-Americans intended to arm the Germans against the Soviets. Two days (May 8) later, at nightfall, his commander gathered them all together «It's over

.

wellspring
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Re: 1945 Lost German girl

Post by wellspring » 06 Mar 2023 04:09

Hi Forum,
in my estimation I was much too optimistic that all expected replies would be available from the various authorities in about 2 months at the latest. That is why I decided to explain my action now, regardless of having all of them received yet.
I recognized my mother in the person of LGG. Although I am absolutely sure that she is the woman shown in the footage, I have been trying for almost 1 year to trace her life back, to find written hints about the course of her escape. Unfortunately, I can't ask my mother about this anymore, because she died in 1987. She belonged to the community of ethnic Germans in Slovakia, whose family lived there for several centuries and was expelled from the country at the end of the 2nd World War. I had to struggle for every word if I wanted to know something about her life before and during the 2nd World War. She never spoke of the event near Pilsen, which is why I corresponded intensively with public authorities; as I already indicated, with very moderate success and sometimes long periods in getting a response.
Today I don't want to go into more detail, but I upload one of the few photos of her, taken as a young woman.
20230306_000350 (2).jpg
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CarlosXander
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Re: 1945 Lost German girl

Post by CarlosXander » 07 Mar 2023 23:17

Hello Wellspring
When I spent time researching her, I got the idea that the only way to find out her identity would be through her relatives, since there is no data or information about LGG.
I would like to know more about your mother, like her name? Was she a civilian or did she belong to the Wehrmacht? What nationality was she? How old was she? Any more information is useful.
greetings

wellspring
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Re: 1945 Lost German girl

Post by wellspring » 12 Mar 2023 00:09

Hello Carlos,

before I give more detailed data about my mother, I must begin with a report which helps to clarify some of the circumstances.

In the book "Hauerländer erzählen", edited by Ludwig Wohlland (Hauerland is one of 3 areas in Slovakia, where many Germans lived), a few storytellers report on their lives. The teacher Stefan Karls documented the following in a chapter entitled "Memories of bad times", written on page 161:
Deckblatt.jpg

Frauen und Kinder waren bereits, mit wenigen Ausnahmen, ins Sudetenland evakuiert worden. Auf Grund eines Staatsvertrages mußten Karpatendeutsche (Deutsche, die in der Slowakei lebten) ihre Wehrpflicht bis 1944 bei der Waffen-SS leisten (Siehe dazu Karpatenjahrbuch 1995, S. 59 ff).
Translation
"Women and Children had already been evacuated to the Sudetenland, with few exceptions. On the basis of a state treaty, Carpathian Germans (Germans living in Slovakia) had to do their military service with the Waffen-SS until 1944 (see Karpatenjahrbuch 1995, p. 59 ff)."


After several imprisonments, Mr. Karls ended up in the Dachau prison camp, where Karl Wildner, a colonel from Slovakia, wrote a defense for the trial before the Nuremberg War Tribunal. I quote from the book on page 163:
In diesem Memorandum schilderte Wildner wahrheitsgetreu die Entwicklung der Heranziehung der Deutschen aus der Slowakei zum Wehrdienst in der Waffen-SS, von der anfänglichen echten Freiwilligkeit, über die Nötigung zur "Freiwilligkeit" und der schließlich gesetzlichen Pflicht. Dazu benannte er Zeugen und führte eine Reihe von Fällen an, auf welche Weise wehrpflichtige Karpatendeutsche zur Waffen-SS gekommen waren, die sich jetzt ebenfalls im Lager Dachau befanden. Die Denkschrift schloß mit der Feststellung: "Wir sind Soldaten und keine Kriegsverbrecher. Wir hatten mit Verbrechen nichts zu tun..." Deshalb könnten diese Soldaten nicht kollektiv als Angehörige einer verbrecherischen Organisation angeprangert werden.
Translation
"In this memorandum, Wildner truthfully described the development of the recruitment of Germans from Slovakia for military service in the Waffen-SS, from the initially true voluntariness, to the coercion to "voluntariness" and finally the legal obligation. On that point, he named witnesses and cited a number of cases of how draftees of the Carpathian Germans had joined the Waffen-SS, who were now also in the Dachau prison camp. The memorandum concluded: "We are soldiers, not war criminals. We had nothing to do with crime..." Therefore, these soldiers could not be collectively denounced as members of a criminal organization."

Due to this fact, the probability is very high that my mother was accompanied by a group of SS soldiers from her homeland, or met some of them there. I knew from her that she desperately wanted to reach the area that the Americans managed.
I also don't know to what extent she fled together with her mother and sister(at that time 15 years old) and to what extent she was separated at some point. These two were actually captured by Russians, had to get undressed and should be shot. Fortunately, there had been no physical assault yet. A Russian officer, who happened to arrive, rebuked the soldiers and ordered them not to bother women and children. Her mother (my grandmother) was so confused, desperate and upset that she started pulling out her hair. When asked about it later, she could not explain why she had reacted that way. Their only suitcase, they had with them had previously been taken away by the Russian soldiers (perhaps also the clothing?). That's why I don't have any photos of my mother from the time before the war, because all the important documents and pictures were stored in them. As I said before, to what extent my mother was involved in this event, my cousin could not answer me. The lack of exchange of experiences between family members is also due to the fact that my mother lived alone and separated from her whole family in the West, while those had to build up their lives in the later GDR. The contact had almost come to a standstill due to the restrictions between both countries.
My mother was 19 1/2 years old at the time of her escape. Nor is anyone aware that she was in the military (to this thread I will tell something another time). She had begun training as a midwife, but at some point she had to break it off, because of the war and never could finish it. Her maiden name was Emilia Pleschko and she had Czechoslovak citizenship.
I hope, this information will be useful.
All the best
wellspring
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CarlosXander
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Re: 1945 Lost German girl

Post by CarlosXander » 12 Mar 2023 00:21

hello wellspring
Thank you very much for sharing this information and everything helps in this investigation
and thank you
greetings

Gradus
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Re: 1945 Lost German girl

Post by Gradus » 21 Apr 2023 06:49

Lukens wrote:
01 Dec 2022 00:32
Gradus wrote:
31 Jul 2022 14:19
Anyway, I also sent an email to the person who claimed to be LGG's grandson (in German). Will see whether I will get a reply..
Did anything ever come of this in the end?

I too, have been following this discussion for quite sometime (long before I had an account on here) , I first picked up on this after seeing the footage from the World at War.

I’m suprised how she hasn’t gotten more publicity outside of this forum over the years, even on Reddit etc the discussion is rather muted and there are actually not that many videos on YouTube etc about her, which I find a bit odd.
No, never got a reply.

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Lukens
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Re: 1945 Lost German girl

Post by Lukens » 21 Apr 2023 18:08

Gradus wrote:
21 Apr 2023 06:49
Lukens wrote:
01 Dec 2022 00:32
Gradus wrote:
31 Jul 2022 14:19
Anyway, I also sent an email to the person who claimed to be LGG's grandson (in German). Will see whether I will get a reply..
Did anything ever come of this in the end?

I too, have been following this discussion for quite sometime (long before I had an account on here) , I first picked up on this after seeing the footage from the World at War.

I’m suprised how she hasn’t gotten more publicity outside of this forum over the years, even on Reddit etc the discussion is rather muted and there are actually not that many videos on YouTube etc about her, which I find a bit odd.
No, never got a reply.

Pity. That’s honestly one of the most frustrating things, the amount of people who I’ve corresponded with when it comes to my research who don’t reply frustrates me much more than it should. I often wonder why some of these people entertain the prospect in the first place.

ignacioosacar1
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Re: 1945 Lost German girl

Post by ignacioosacar1 » 08 May 2023 02:40

Dear Lukens,

In my experience as the beginer of this thread I identify clearly four types of members: those who have serious intentions to do their bit, those who are honest but unfortunately are dominated by wishful thinking, those who openly want to novelize the LGG story and those who just plant false leads and whose intentions are quite obscure to say the least. I agree that there has been a small impact outside this forum which is rather strange given the years it has been ongoing. If I recall correctly there were one or two articles in German magazines mentioning the LGG thread in the AHF Forum. My own fantasy is that someone has known her identity all this time but has never gone out to the light. Cheers

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Bachmann
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Re: 1945 Lost German girl

Post by Bachmann » 08 May 2023 02:44

I too have been following this thread, hoping one day to know what became of her after the war

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CarlosXander
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Re: 1945 Lost German girl

Post by CarlosXander » 08 May 2023 23:14

hello forum
78 years after the filming of LGG by Haglund in that part of Czechoslovakia (today the Czech Republic) unfortunately I have not found anything new, only clues that lead to more clues without being able to find anything new, the only thing that stands out was a couple of current photos of the places where LGG was, something to highlight is that it can be affirmed that LGG was sent to Pilsen that same Tuesday, May 8, 1945 (this theory was previously stated in this forum) this is shared by an inhabitant of the area who has a Facebook group (Rokycany - Ejpovice - Plzeň 1945) in the final part of Haglund's filming you can see the 2 civilian women and a group of prisoners walking towards a place, that place is near Pilsen several kilometers from where it was filmed LGG, in this filming and others filmed by Haglund's companions, several prisoners are observed who were next to LGG when she was filmed sitting next to them (in garden no. 89) in Ejpovice, all of them were sent that same May 8 and it is very likely that LGG was sent along with them, as always there is no data or filming to prove this, only assumptions and theories, but it is most likely, what happened next? If LGG were a civilian she would be released immediately or released on May 10 or 11 like the rest of the civilians in Ejpovice, if she was classified as SS (perhaps more likely) she was released on July 4, 1945 along with all the other civilians. prisoners who was in Pilsen (if she was not accused as a collaborator or other things she would be sent to the Czech partisans and sent to the Russians with tragic consequences (unlikely))
greetings

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image site
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place where that group was filmed and where LGG was filmed
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current photos of the site (thanks to Marcel Beran)
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if you are interested visit their facebook group Rokycany - Ejpovice - Plzeň 1945
https://www.facebook.com/groups/300093803980178

wirklich
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Re: 1945 Lost German girl

Post by wirklich » 09 May 2023 05:28

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------Unbekannte-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------08.05.1945-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Die unbekannte Frau.
The unknown woman.
Unbekannte....Unknown.
The woman's fate is unknown.
The woman's age is not known.
The woman's name is not known.
The woman's homeland is not known.
The woman's occupation is not known.
It is not known if the woman was alone.
It is not known how the woman was injured.
It is not known where the woman came from.
It is not known where the woman was going to.
It is not known if the woman was military or civilian.
It is not known if the woman followed a German soldier east.
It is not known if the woman was following a German soldier west.
It is not known if the woman was with the German soldiers that were killed.

Military or civilian. The woman has no visible military insignia, Erkennungsmarke or Soldbuch.
Many German soldiers can be seen with an Ek around their neck and what may be a Soldbuch in the upper pocket of their tunic. The EK on some of the dead soldiers can be seen. Their EK could have been used to identify them as SS.
If... she was with them and they were identified as SS she may have been presumed to be military/SS.

As the woman walks towards the camera both hands can be seen to be empty. On the next shot she has her right hand behind her back. As she steps towards the camera her right shoulder is turned slightly to the right. She does not want her right hand to be seen. On the last shot she is holding the book and money in both hands. She lowers both hands keeping the book in the her left hand, moving the money to her right hand and raising it to her face.

The woman holds what may be a red DAF book with a card/picture in it and bank notes in her hands. German civilian workers were required to have a DAF Book. Military were not. Not all DAF books were red. Not all civilian workers with red German identification books were German.

The woman has no other personal belongings that can be seen. No tunic/jacket. Latter she is seen with a white cloth/handkerchief in her hand.
A white handkerchief/cloth was a very common item for civilians and many can be seen waving one at American soldiers in the other USHMM film footage. Many German soldiers can be seen with a white cloth/handkerchief.
The woman started her journey with what may be a red DAF book and bank notes. The cloth/handkerchief is most likely hers.

The woman wears trousers that resemble Luftwaffe issue. Not SS. Combat trousers were made full cut and were very baggy with large pockets that could easily conceal the book and money. The black sweater resembles what German soldiers wear. The braces are damaged but they are not needed to hold the trousers up. The sweater and trousers fit the woman.
The woman appears to be wearing ankle boots like another female refugee in another film clip wears.
The clothes fit the woman...and may be hers. There is very little chance any soldiers would have had clothes that would fit the woman.

The woman's face is injured on the left side and her eye is swollen. The hands appear to be swollen but this may be caused by lens distortion. The hands are at the edge of the frame and are the closest body part to the camera lens on a very close shot. The woman does not have any trouble holding the book and moving her fingers.

If the woman was from East Europe and was German descent/German military or had helped the Germans she could not stay there.
If the woman was from the East Europe and not German descent she may not have been allowed to enter Germany and may have been left there or turned over to the Russians.

If the woman was from a country in West Europe and had helped Germany she could not stay in the East. If the woman was not from Germany she may not have been welcome back in her country in the West. Germany may have been the only place she could go. But she might not want to stay there. Some people of German descent went to other countries.

If the woman went to Germany it is not known if it was West or East. If it was East the woman could be an unknown here.https://www.stasi-unterlagen-archiv.de/ ... o-records/

It is not known how long the woman lived after she was filmed. It may have been days or years. Many did not live long after the war ended.
It is not known if the woman had any family to return to or if they would accept her if she was from a country other than Germany in West Europe.
It is not known if the woman left family behind if she was from East Europe.
It is not known if the woman would be recognizable decades latter. Some people do not age well.
It is not known where the woman went to, lived or died after she was filmed.
It is not known if the woman or anyone that may have known her had any knowledge of the film footage of her.
It is not known who the woman was.

Unbekannte Frau...Unknown woman. 08.05.1945 __.__.____

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------Known unknowns-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------08.05.2023--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Uncle John
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Re: 1945 Lost German girl

Post by Uncle John » 09 May 2023 07:50

Capt. Oren W. Haglund was a Hollywood guy......he was interested in making pictures..... anything else?   
I don't think he was a war correspondent

I wish he had asked her for her name and where from ...... and given her a Hershey bar!



If he did, then what? nothing!

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CarlosXander
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Re: 1945 Lost German girl

Post by CarlosXander » 09 May 2023 20:49

wirklich wrote:
09 May 2023 05:28
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------Unbekannte-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------08.05.1945-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Die unbekannte Frau.
The unknown woman.
Unbekannte....Unknown.
The woman's fate is unknown.
The woman's age is not known.
The woman's name is not known.
The woman's homeland is not known.
The woman's occupation is not known.
It is not known if the woman was alone.
It is not known how the woman was injured.
It is not known where the woman came from.
It is not known where the woman was going to.
It is not known if the woman was military or civilian.
It is not known if the woman followed a German soldier east.
It is not known if the woman was following a German soldier west.
It is not known if the woman was with the German soldiers that were killed.

Military or civilian. The woman has no visible military insignia, Erkennungsmarke or Soldbuch.
Many German soldiers can be seen with an Ek around their neck and what may be a Soldbuch in the upper pocket of their tunic. The EK on some of the dead soldiers can be seen. Their EK could have been used to identify them as SS.
If... she was with them and they were identified as SS she may have been presumed to be military/SS.

As the woman walks towards the camera both hands can be seen to be empty. On the next shot she has her right hand behind her back. As she steps towards the camera her right shoulder is turned slightly to the right. She does not want her right hand to be seen. On the last shot she is holding the book and money in both hands. She lowers both hands keeping the book in the her left hand, moving the money to her right hand and raising it to her face.

The woman holds what may be a red DAF book with a card/picture in it and bank notes in her hands. German civilian workers were required to have a DAF Book. Military were not. Not all DAF books were red. Not all civilian workers with red German identification books were German.

The woman has no other personal belongings that can be seen. No tunic/jacket. Latter she is seen with a white cloth/handkerchief in her hand.
A white handkerchief/cloth was a very common item for civilians and many can be seen waving one at American soldiers in the other USHMM film footage. Many German soldiers can be seen with a white cloth/handkerchief.
The woman started her journey with what may be a red DAF book and bank notes. The cloth/handkerchief is most likely hers.

The woman wears trousers that resemble Luftwaffe issue. Not SS. Combat trousers were made full cut and were very baggy with large pockets that could easily conceal the book and money. The black sweater resembles what German soldiers wear. The braces are damaged but they are not needed to hold the trousers up. The sweater and trousers fit the woman.
The woman appears to be wearing ankle boots like another female refugee in another film clip wears.
The clothes fit the woman...and may be hers. There is very little chance any soldiers would have had clothes that would fit the woman.

The woman's face is injured on the left side and her eye is swollen. The hands appear to be swollen but this may be caused by lens distortion. The hands are at the edge of the frame and are the closest body part to the camera lens on a very close shot. The woman does not have any trouble holding the book and moving her fingers.

If the woman was from East Europe and was German descent/German military or had helped the Germans she could not stay there.
If the woman was from the East Europe and not German descent she may not have been allowed to enter Germany and may have been left there or turned over to the Russians.

If the woman was from a country in West Europe and had helped Germany she could not stay in the East. If the woman was not from Germany she may not have been welcome back in her country in the West. Germany may have been the only place she could go. But she might not want to stay there. Some people of German descent went to other countries.

If the woman went to Germany it is not known if it was West or East. If it was East the woman could be an unknown here.https://www.stasi-unterlagen-archiv.de/ ... o-records/

It is not known how long the woman lived after she was filmed. It may have been days or years. Many did not live long after the war ended.
It is not known if the woman had any family to return to or if they would accept her if she was from a country other than Germany in West Europe.
It is not known if the woman left family behind if she was from East Europe.
It is not known if the woman would be recognizable decades latter. Some people do not age well.
It is not known where the woman went to, lived or died after she was filmed.
It is not known if the woman or anyone that may have known her had any knowledge of the film footage of her.
It is not known who the woman was.

Unbekannte Frau...Unknown woman. 08.05.1945 __.__.____

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------Known unknowns-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------08.05.2023--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is a summary of how frustrating it is to find any information or data from LGG
There is no other image of her, there are no stories, nothing at all, no image of her before being attacked, a possible maybe, but nothing more, neither after the filming and again a maybe, a possible story from one of the soldiers that they were there, the date and place cannot be established (this story appears on this forum where a forum member reports that his grandfather remembered a beautiful beaten woman who was helped by them in that sector).
It's that complex trying to identify LGG, there's always hope of finding something but it gets frustrating

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CarlosXander
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Location: Argentina

Re: 1945 Lost German girl

Post by CarlosXander » 09 May 2023 21:11

Uncle John wrote:
09 May 2023 07:50
Capt. Oren W. Haglund was a Hollywood guy......he was interested in making pictures..... anything else?   
I don't think he was a war correspondent

I wish he had asked her for her name and where from ...... and given her a Hershey bar!



If he did, then what? nothing!


With the subject of Haglund, he was a second line war correspondent, the main correspondents were on another front such as John Ford, Frank Capra, William Wyler, George Stevens and John Huston who was in the northern sector with Montgomery, center with Bradley that it was believed that one of them would arrive in Berlin or in the Air Force or in the Pacific, in the sector where Patton was it was known that they would not be sent to Germany but to the sector of Austria or Czechoslovakia and that is where most of the cameramen, directors and second line correspondents
About Haglund I have not found anything about whether he helped others as they say on other sites, I only leave the reference notes of the filming and that is where the only identification of LGG as "SS Girl" seems, apart from this there are no notes or something else, it is implied that he did not attend LGG, it was just one more filming and showing the horrors of war, nothing more
Unfortunately, Haglund passed away in 1972 and it was only in 1974 that his filming became known (I have not found an older date for the projection of that tape) and it is at this time that interest in LGG was taken, if he knew anything about it, unfortunately, he would tell him. I carry to the grave

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