French women colllaborating during occupation

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uhu
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French women colllaborating during occupation

#1

Post by uhu » 05 Apr 2020, 16:26

I hope this hasn't been posted before now.
https://rarehistoricalphotos.com/nazi-c ... tor-girls/

Sid Guttridge
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Re: French women colllaborating during occupation

#2

Post by Sid Guttridge » 05 Apr 2020, 16:51

Hi uhu,

Very interesting, but I would suggest that this link illustrates fraternization, rather than collaboration.

Cheers,

Sid.


NickA
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Re: French women colllaborating during occupation

#3

Post by NickA » 08 Apr 2020, 22:20

uhu wrote:
05 Apr 2020, 16:26
I hope this hasn't been posted before now. https://rarehistoricalphotos.com/nazi-c ... tor-girls/
I'm pretty uncomfortable calling those girls "collaborators" too. But there is something interesting in that collection - the girl in the middle of this picture wasn't out of place as a family friend (servant?) in Nazi occupied France.Image

Michael Kenny
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Re: French women colllaborating during occupation

#4

Post by Michael Kenny » 08 Apr 2020, 22:43

NickA wrote:
08 Apr 2020, 22:20
the girl in the middle of this picture wasn't out of place as a family friend (servant?) in Nazi occupied France.Image
Or on stage with Danny La Rue /RuPaul?

NickA
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Re: French women colllaborating during occupation

#5

Post by NickA » 09 Apr 2020, 11:52

Michael Kenny wrote:
08 Apr 2020, 22:43
NickA wrote:
08 Apr 2020, 22:20
the [black] girl in the middle of this picture wasn't out of place as a family friend (servant?) in Nazi occupied France.
Or on stage with Danny La Rue /RuPaul?
I wanted to mention the success of Josephine Baker getting secrets from top Nazis in Paris under occupation (as she could never have done on Americans) and add some moderately striking social commentary on the war. But the Wikipedia only mentions her chatting up Japanese and Italian diplomats. She was greatly acclaimed by the French after the war and died in Paris in 1975 (aged 68) but her movements don't seem to have allowed her to bed many/any Nazi commanders. We don't really seem to know whether she was chased out of Paris in May (?) 1940 or France in 1941 nor how she funded entertaining the penniless Free French in Africa. A shame that de Gaulle refused to personally give her the medal.

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Prosper Vandenbroucke
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Re: French women colllaborating during occupation

#6

Post by Prosper Vandenbroucke » 09 Apr 2020, 12:21

I think that the 2 persons in the middle are NOT girls. It seems to me that it are german soldiers who changed their uniforms with their girlfriends (French or not french)
https://lelombrik.net/98822

Sid Guttridge
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Re: French women colllaborating during occupation

#7

Post by Sid Guttridge » 09 Apr 2020, 13:27

Hi NickA,

What secets did Josephine Baker get out of prominent Nazis under occupation?

She reportedly listened in on conversations between German, Italian and Japanese officials she was entertaining but, assuming they did not speak official matters amongst themselves in French, how much could she understand of the others? She apparently claimed to speak only a little Italian. Did she speak any German, let alone Japanese?

Josephine Baker certainly ran messages for the resistance, as she had considerable freedom of movement, but do we have any hard facts on intelligence she may have gathered herself?

Cheers,

Sid

gebhk
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Re: French women colllaborating during occupation

#8

Post by gebhk » 09 Apr 2020, 22:15

For what it's worth I've always found it fascinating how no one raised an eyebrow when the baker sold his bread to the 'invaders' whoever they might be, the factory workers churned out weapons for him etc. But when prostitutes sold what they had to sell (or provided labour for payment, depending on how you look at it) it tended to unleash torrents of opprobrium, giving comfort to the enemy and so on and so forth. Classic case of, as the man said, if standards are good, then, ipso facto, double standards must be twice as good.

I don't think anyone has the right to criticise these women for doing what they had to do, often to ensure the survival of their children and loved ones.

NickA
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Re: French women colllaborating during occupation

#9

Post by NickA » 26 Apr 2020, 13:31

Sid Guttridge wrote:
09 Apr 2020, 13:27
Hi NickA, What secets did Josephine Baker get out of prominent Nazis under occupation? She reportedly listened in on conversations between German, Italian and Japanese officials she was entertaining but, assuming they did not speak official matters amongst themselves in French, how much could she understand of the others? She apparently claimed to speak only a little Italian. Did she speak any German, let alone Japanese? Josephine Baker certainly ran messages for the resistance, as she had considerable freedom of movement, but do we have any hard facts on intelligence she may have gathered herself? Cheers, Sid
Good thinking, she cannot really have had the language skills to have been of any use.

Actually, I'd convinced myself of that already, the "Talk" page behind the Wikipedia article sometimes has really good information, chased out of the Article entry by often self-interested and quite unpleasant nationalists. But there's nothing like that on the Josephine Baker article, only attempts to smear her as a bisexual. There are apparently loads of references to this - but they all come from a 14 year old she may or may not have adopted and says he hated her. The Wikipedia editors, to their credit, has spotted this and driven it out.
Prosper Vandenbroucke wrote:
09 Apr 2020, 12:21
I think that the 2 persons in the middle are NOT girls. It seems to me that it are german soldiers who changed their uniforms with their girlfriends (French or not french) https://lelombrik.net/98822
Good research you've done there. Photograph elsewhere captioned "German soldiers exchanged their outfits with their French girlfriends. France, 1941."
But my basic point, that there wasn't much severe racism in either French or German society is somewhat endorsed by the more reliable back-story. I can't imagine any black and white American soldiers were allowed to socialise like that.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: French women colllaborating during occupation

#10

Post by Sid Guttridge » 28 Apr 2020, 13:25

Hi NickA,

As Germany barely had a black minority to offer even a notional threat, the absence of "much severe racism" towards them, even if it were true, would probably reflect lack of opportunity rather than race blindness. Where racial minorities were present in numbers, i.e. the Jews and Gypsies, the story was rather different!

The French were more liberal for both ideological and practical reasons. It is hard to claim to uphold the ideals of "Liberty, Equality, Fraternity" and still be overtly racist. By 1940 France already had a black governor in one of its African colonies.

On a pragmatic level, France was short of population, particularly in the countryside. In the 1930s two Germans were reaching conscription age for every Frenchman. The only way to redress some of the balance was to allow colonial (and Spanish, Portugese and Italian) immigration to rural areas and to raise colonial army divisions. This requires some sensitivity to racial issues. That said, the French colonial system was still essentially racially based.

Cheers,

Sid

Stephan
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Re: French women colllaborating during occupation

#11

Post by Stephan » 07 May 2020, 20:14

gebhk wrote:
09 Apr 2020, 22:15
For what it's worth I've always found it fascinating how no one raised an eyebrow when the baker sold his bread to the 'invaders' whoever they might be, the factory workers churned out weapons for him etc. But when prostitutes sold what they had to sell (or provided labour for payment, depending on how you look at it) it tended to unleash torrents of opprobrium, giving comfort to the enemy and so on and so forth. Classic case of, as the man said, if standards are good, then, ipso facto, double standards must be twice as good.

I don't think anyone has the right to criticise these women for doing what they had to do, often to ensure the survival of their children and loved ones.
Well said, and its of course so.

I myself think a big part of the explanation is the scape-goat thinking.

To find SOMEONE whom is the REALLY quilty one, so we others can get free and pretend innocent.

And yes, its the girls here, alike often otherwise. Stupid, unfair etc? Yes, but such is life.

history1
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Re: French women colllaborating during occupation

#12

Post by history1 » 11 May 2020, 17:50

I suggest to be very careful by judging others from this photos and agree totally with gebhk and Stephan.
Take as example the last image, the photo caption reads
"Festival atmosphere: A French woman cavorting with members of Hitler’s SS in bars and cabarets. To say that all these women had no choice is a bit much."
The photo itself:
Image
Odd that not a single rank insignia visible in the image does indeed show an SS-rank insignia!
But it´s easier for hypocrites to throw stones when the alleged collaborator fraternates with the evil SS.
BTW, does the unlawful tortures and mistreatment of women by French resistance members and with French cops, Allied soldiers and civilians as onlookers not to be mentioned then?

Sid Guttridge
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Re: French women colllaborating during occupation

#13

Post by Sid Guttridge » 12 May 2020, 12:19

Hi history1,

They can be mentioned here on AHF, but with hard facts and sourcing, preferably on their own dedicated thread.

Over to you.....

Sid.

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