T4 programme nurses euthanising German soldiers, "Hitler's Furies", Wendy Lower

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antwony
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T4 programme nurses euthanising German soldiers, "Hitler's Furies", Wendy Lower

#1

Post by antwony » 27 May 2023, 11:32

I haven't actually read the book. But, I was listening to a review of "Hitler's Furies" by Wendy Lower. Apparently, Lower's book mentions that in Winter '41 German nurses, from the T4 programme, were euthanising seriously wounded German soldiers from the Eastern Front.

Was the review correct; was this mentioned in the book? Does anyone know Lower's sources/ have any information on euthanising "useless eaters" who were also Übermensch?

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Re: T4 programme nurses euthanising German soldiers, "Hitler's Furies", Wendy Lower

#2

Post by Peter89 » 18 Jul 2023, 21:34

I very seriously doubt this, as it goes directly against T4 philosophy.
"Everything remained theory and hypothesis. On paper, in his plans, in his head, he juggled with Geschwaders and Divisions, while in reality there were really only makeshift squadrons at his disposal."


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Re: T4 programme nurses euthanising German soldiers, "Hitler's Furies", Wendy Lower

#3

Post by wm » 19 Jul 2023, 02:34

The Wehrmacht never would allow it, and "Aktion T4" was suspended on 24 August 1941 by Hitler anyway.
Although the nurses could have done it in secret on their initiative or maybe because the soldiers requested it.

Mentally ill, incurable ill Germans were euthanized all the time but euthanizing soldiers (i.e., defenders of the Fatherland, heroes) was, in my opinion, over the top even for Hitler.

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Re: T4 programme nurses euthanising German soldiers, "Hitler's Furies", Wendy Lower

#4

Post by hucks216 » 19 Jul 2023, 16:35

wm wrote:
19 Jul 2023, 02:34

...and "Aktion T4" was suspended on 24 August 1941 by Hitler anyway.
It carried on covertly until the end of the war. US troops found recently killed inmates of Hadamar in 1945.

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Re: T4 programme nurses euthanising German soldiers, "Hitler's Furies", Wendy Lower

#5

Post by hucks216 » 19 Jul 2023, 16:36

antwony wrote:
27 May 2023, 11:32
I haven't actually read the book. But, I was listening to a review of "Hitler's Furies" by Wendy Lower. Apparently, Lower's book mentions that in Winter '41 German nurses, from the T4 programme, were euthanising seriously wounded German soldiers from the Eastern Front.

Was the review correct; was this mentioned in the book? Does anyone know Lower's sources/ have any information on euthanising "useless eaters" who were also Übermensch?
Here is the entry in the book.

123.jpg
456.jpg

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Re: T4 programme nurses euthanising German soldiers, "Hitler's Furies", Wendy Lower

#6

Post by PunctuationHorror » 19 Jul 2023, 18:36

Over the years I stumbled upon reports from family members mentioning that their badly injured relative was given 'mercy', e.g. pilots, tankers, soldiers who were badly maimed (jaws, nose, face missing) and lost their eyesight, who had suffered severe burns, lost limbs, were paraplegic etc., usually all of this together or who had suffered irrecoverable brain damage.

Don't know if this was related to a special programme like T4. I guess that it was not. Seemed to be more like 'he was taken care of in the hospital', 'died during (reconstructive) surgery' or 'succumbed to his previous bad injuries'.

Since I do not cataloguet such things, I can't point to references.

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Re: T4 programme nurses euthanising German soldiers, "Hitler's Furies", Wendy Lower

#7

Post by wm » 20 Jul 2023, 00:00

hucks216 wrote:
19 Jul 2023, 16:35
It carried on covertly until the end of the war. US troops found recently killed inmates of Hadamar in 1945.
Although it was covertly in both cases.
Aktion T4 was a large-scale centralized operation that ended in August 1942, but the "Law on Euthanasia for the Incurably Ill" was still in force, so it was possible to implement it locally.
But it was based mostly (entirely?) on need, usually because beds were needed for injured in bombardments Germans.

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Re: T4 programme nurses euthanising German soldiers, "Hitler's Furies", Wendy Lower

#8

Post by wm » 20 Jul 2023, 00:06

The strange thing is so many people were needed:
Viktor Brack, ... a gassing and sterilization expert, led a team of doctors, nurses, and technicians
Any doctor could kill with a syringe and a common substance.
The team of experts wasn't needed at all - in concentration camps, people without medical education (and frequently without any education) did it.

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Re: T4 programme nurses euthanising German soldiers, "Hitler's Furies", Wendy Lower

#9

Post by antwony » 21 Jul 2023, 12:12

Peter89 wrote:
18 Jul 2023, 21:34
I very seriously doubt this, as it goes directly against T4 philosophy.
So, you have no knowledge of the subject and can't answer my questions. But, you feel it didn't happen...

Thanks for the reply, I suppose.
wm wrote:
19 Jul 2023, 02:34
The Wehrmacht never would allow it, and "Aktion T4" was suspended on 24 August 1941 by Hitler anyway.
Although the nurses could have done it in secret on their initiative or maybe because the soldiers requested it.

Mentally ill, incurable ill Germans were euthanized all the time but euthanizing soldiers (i.e., defenders of the Fatherland, heroes) was, in my opinion, over the top even for Hitler.
Thank you for your, not massively relevant and pretty questionable, opinion.
hucks216 wrote:
19 Jul 2023, 16:35
It carried on covertly until the end of the war. US troops found recently killed inmates of Hadamar in 1945.
Technically he's correct. Aktion T4 was ended in 1941.

But, you're correct too. Euthanasia happened right through to the end.
hucks216 wrote:
19 Jul 2023, 16:36
Here is the entry in the book.
There we go, thanks very much.

Chapter five of the book, where your quote comes from, can be found online at: https://homepage.univie.ac.at/ljiljana. ... owerII.pdf
PunctuationHorror wrote:
19 Jul 2023, 18:36
Over the years I stumbled upon reports from family members mentioning that their badly injured relative was given 'mercy', e.g. pilots, tankers, soldiers who were badly maimed (jaws, nose, face missing) and lost their eyesight, who had suffered severe burns, lost limbs, were paraplegic etc., usually all of this together or who had suffered irrecoverable brain damage.

Don't know if this was related to a special programme like T4. I guess that it was not. Seemed to be more like 'he was taken care of in the hospital', 'died during (reconstructive) surgery' or 'succumbed to his previous bad injuries'.

Since I do not cataloguet such things, I can't point to references.
Don't worry about the referrences, thanks for the reply.

Both yourself and WM have misunderstood my initial post.

Reading back what I initially wrote, I can see how my initial question could be misinterpreted.

The personnel for the operations in the east included ex-T4 personnel such as Sister Kneissler. It wasn't an actual T4 thing.

According to Frank Hirschinger in "Zur Ausmerzung freigegeben" the (possible) soldier killing operational group were part of Organisation Todt, (possibly) to obscure what they were upto.
wm wrote:
20 Jul 2023, 00:00
Although it was covertly in both cases.
So?
wm wrote:
20 Jul 2023, 00:00
But it was based mostly (entirely?) on need, usually because beds were needed for injured in bombardments Germans.
I'm going to interpret that as not trying to justify the Holocaust.
wm wrote:
20 Jul 2023, 00:06
The strange thing is so many people were needed:
Viktor Brack, ... a gassing and sterilization expert, led a team of doctors, nurses, and technicians
Any doctor could kill with a syringe and a common substance.
The team of experts wasn't needed at all - in concentration camps, people without medical education (and frequently without any education) did it.
I'm going to interpret that as not being Holocaust denial.

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Re: T4 programme nurses euthanising German soldiers, "Hitler's Furies", Wendy Lower

#10

Post by Peter89 » 21 Jul 2023, 14:33

antwony wrote:
21 Jul 2023, 12:12
Peter89 wrote:
18 Jul 2023, 21:34
I very seriously doubt this, as it goes directly against T4 philosophy.
So, you have no knowledge of the subject and can't answer my questions. But, you feel it didn't happen...

Thanks for the reply, I suppose.
wm wrote:
19 Jul 2023, 02:34
The Wehrmacht never would allow it, and "Aktion T4" was suspended on 24 August 1941 by Hitler anyway.
Although the nurses could have done it in secret on their initiative or maybe because the soldiers requested it.

Mentally ill, incurable ill Germans were euthanized all the time but euthanizing soldiers (i.e., defenders of the Fatherland, heroes) was, in my opinion, over the top even for Hitler.
Thank you for your, not massively relevant and pretty questionable, opinion.
I would suggest to keep a more friendly tone when we're discussing a topic you've sourced from a book you've never read.

As a research assistant, I was participating the Charité commemoration of T4 victims in 2010, and spoke with those who put together the exhibition and a few of those who had second/third hand knowledge of the murders.

The T4 initiative did not aim to deliver merciful death of the injured German soldiers. It aimed the civilian population, especially the mentally ill. As far as I know, the procedure to select the victims did not include boxes for ticking that were related to battlefield injuries. Independently of T4, euthanasia of extremely injured soldiers might have happened in individual cases (maybe not even rarely), and many severly injured soldiers tried to kill themselves.

If you'd like to get definitive answers with sources, please consult with the Institut für Geschichte der Medizin und Ethik in der Medizin at the Charité, and get in contact with Dr. Petra Fuchs.
"Everything remained theory and hypothesis. On paper, in his plans, in his head, he juggled with Geschwaders and Divisions, while in reality there were really only makeshift squadrons at his disposal."

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Re: T4 programme nurses euthanising German soldiers, "Hitler's Furies", Wendy Lower

#11

Post by CraigM » 21 Jul 2023, 15:10

Antwony, I agree with Peter89. Would you please be more polite in this forum and less confrontational? There's no need to be abrasive. It's all about knowledge sharing and friendly discussion here, even if we have different opinions.

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Re: T4 programme nurses euthanising German soldiers, "Hitler's Furies", Wendy Lower

#12

Post by wm » 22 Jul 2023, 01:36

For the most part, the "examination" [of new arrivals before sending them to the gas chamber] consisted of the doctor simply checking on the fact that patient and chart coincided -the right person was being killed ...
Reversing a decision about a patient's death at that point was extremely rare, probably limited only to a few discovered to have been war casualties of some kind.
In Württemberg, only twenty-nine patients, mostly war veterans, were saved.
The Nazi Doctors: Medical Killing and the Psychology of Genocide by Robert Jay Lifton

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Re: T4 programme nurses euthanising German soldiers, "Hitler's Furies", Wendy Lower

#13

Post by wm » 26 Jul 2023, 00:20

The first part is from a letter from Dr. Friedrich Mennecke to his wife:
The day before yesterday, a large team from our Operation left for the East under the leadership of Herr Brack to help save our wounded in the ice and snow.
It looks like an emergency mobilization of doctors to help care for the masses of wounded resulting from the failed Battle of Moscow. But he adds:
top secret! Only those who could not be spared from carrying out our Operation's most urgent work have not come along.
Some say "top secret" means euthanasia but more likely, secrecy was needed to hide their profession, that they were killers, from the soldiers.


Robert Lifton doesn't mention Pauline Kneissler and her story in his "The Nazi Doctors," probably because he considered it hearsay - and it was hearsay.
According to post-war hearsay testimony from Pauline’s colleague, Pauline allegedly said the goal of this Eastern Mission was to murder wounded German soldiers on the front—soldiers who were suffering from severe head trauma, or severe psychiatric disorders—manifested from war trauma.
...
Pauline tells her colleague she especially, quote, “regretted giving injections at a reserved military hospital in Russia from which the soldiers died painlessly”
Btw, by the look of it, "Hitler's Furies" seems to be tabloid history.

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Re: T4 programme nurses euthanising German soldiers, "Hitler's Furies", Wendy Lower

#14

Post by antwony » 24 Sep 2023, 15:12

So, to answer my own question having read the book. Lower's information about Kneissler apparently comes from Gaida, Ulrike "Zwischen Pflegen und Töten: Krankenschwestern im Nationalsozialismus" (Mabuse Verlag, 2006) p.176.

Interestingly, the notes also contain a reference to Lydia Thomas whose testimony in court (I think) matched Kneissler's, alleged, story. That, apparently is in Lilienthal, Georg "Personal einer Tötungsanstalt. Acht biographische Skizzen" in Hadamar: Heilstätte, Tötungsanstalt, Therapienzentrum (Jonas Verlag, 2006) p.286
Peter89 wrote:
21 Jul 2023, 14:33
I would suggest to keep a more friendly tone when we're discussing a topic you've sourced from a book you've never read.

As a research assistant, I was participating the Charité commemoration of T4 victims in 2010, and spoke with those who put together the exhibition and a few of those who had second/third hand knowledge of the murders.

The T4 initiative did not aim to deliver merciful death of the injured German soldiers. It aimed the civilian population, especially the mentally ill. As far as I know, the procedure to select the victims did not include boxes for ticking that were related to battlefield injuries. Independently of T4, euthanasia of extremely injured soldiers might have happened in individual cases (maybe not even rarely), and many severly injured soldiers tried to kill themselves.

If you'd like to get definitive answers with sources, please consult with the Institut für Geschichte der Medizin und Ethik in der Medizin at the Charité, and get in contact with Dr. Petra Fuchs.
As for my tone, yeah maybe.

I could have given the thread a more clear title. I wasn't asking if the book was claiming that wounded German soldiers were euthanised under the T4 programme. Rather, that a nurse, who had been part of the T4 programme was killing wounded soldiers in winter 1941/42 .

Although....

antwony wrote:
21 Jul 2023, 12:12
Both yourself and WM have misunderstood my initial post.

Reading back what I initially wrote, I can see how my initial question could be misinterpreted.

The personnel for the operations in the east included ex-T4 personnel such as Sister Kneissler. It wasn't an actual T4 thing.
I did explain myself, yet you still kept going on about the T4 programme.
CraigM wrote:
21 Jul 2023, 15:10
Antwony, I agree with Peter89. Would you please be more polite in this forum and less confrontational? There's no need to be abrasive. It's all about knowledge sharing and friendly discussion here, even if we have different opinions.
Well... no. WM is, in my opinion, an archly anti- semitic Nazi apologist, so I wont be polite with him and Peter89 either can't, or wont, understand the subject.
wm wrote:
26 Jul 2023, 00:20
The first part is from a letter from Dr. Friedrich Mennecke to his wife:
The day before yesterday, a large team from our Operation left for the East under the leadership of Herr Brack to help save our wounded in the ice and snow.
It looks like an emergency mobilization of doctors to help care for the masses of wounded resulting from the failed Battle of Moscow. But he adds:
top secret! Only those who could not be spared from carrying out our Operation's most urgent work have not come along.
Some say "top secret" means euthanasia but more likely, secrecy was needed to hide their profession, that they were killers, from the soldiers.


Robert Lifton doesn't mention Pauline Kneissler and her story in his "The Nazi Doctors," probably because he considered it hearsay - and it was hearsay.
According to post-war hearsay testimony from Pauline’s colleague, Pauline allegedly said the goal of this Eastern Mission was to murder wounded German soldiers on the front—soldiers who were suffering from severe head trauma, or severe psychiatric disorders—manifested from war trauma.
...
Pauline tells her colleague she especially, quote, “regretted giving injections at a reserved military hospital in Russia from which the soldiers died painlessly”
Btw, by the look of it, "Hitler's Furies" seems to be tabloid history.
Hitler's Furies really isn't tabloid. It's a properly sourced academic work and the writing lacks the definitive statements found in more excitable histories.

Lower even leaves out supporting, and more credible, evidence to support the matter of contention here i.e. murdering soldiers and relegates it to the notes.

You are correct though about the hearsay nature of Sister Kneissler's alleged statement to a friend. However, I suspect Lipton didn't include Kneissler because A) she wasn't a doctor which was what his book was about and B) he didn't know who she was. She's pretty obscure.

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