The Lebensborn Program. You tell me.

[Roberto]

While a certain Mr. R...... around consider any account that doesn't fit in his own bubble(this including, but not limited to, charges of cruelty and aggresiveness for the Soviets, charges of subversive actions for the Jews, charges of underground actions for the Brits) to have been at least "embellished", if not outrightly hollow bunk and empty slander which is strictly for the birds as usual

If my good friend Ovi read my posts more carefully, he would know that i) I have no ideological bubble whatsoever and ii) I only reject such accounts of Soviet atrocities the origin, source and features of which are highly dubious. The example I remember is the Leonora Geier fairy tale. Any others that Ovi can show us?

The same friend of us thinks that an occupation of Eastern Europe by Communists, or even a victory of the Communists in German elections(they were #2 in the top of numbers of votes earned) followed by the Communization of Germany & Europe was less horrible than the hypothesis of a German victory over the USSR. Because, "what the heck, under Communism they were still alive, while Hitler was going to kill 100 million Slavs".

If may not have been less horrible for Europe, but it was certainly less horrible for the Eastern Slavs whom, unlike Ovi, I also consider to be human beings.

And last but not least, the same friend of us is ready to believe any account that will portray his favorites "Nazi" betes noires as not only cruel & brutal, but also sexually pervert(charges of homosexual activities for Hans Frank, Rudolf Hess & Co.), maniacally sadistic and hysteric(Hitler), or cold-blooded murderous robots(Amon Goeth).

Not any account, as Ovi well knows. Only such that are duly supported by evidence, of which there unfortunately are many. An account of Nazi atrocities as thinly supported as the Leonora Geier nonsense I wouldn’t even look at, for instance.

A little bit of info for you, my dear Mr. R......:

Use of past actions recorded in one person's file to persecute that person over years was a Communist practice, perpetrated in peacetime, when the existence of an oversized terror machine had to be justified by spreading even more terror. I doubt that in Germany during wartime there were secret-service men who wasted precious time & energy to watch over a girl or another for this kind of things. Maybe they threatened her(even with violence), even beaten her, but I strongly doubt they put into action a vast network of officials to stop her from pursuing academic studies.

Yeah, the Nazi regime was more gentle on those who were “Volksgenossen” than any Communist regime. And those who did not belong to the tribe and were accordingly treated like garbage at best and systematically murdered at worst don’t even enter Ovi’s considerations, for he sees himself as an Aryan.

And I doubt this not only because of "wishful thinking", but because if the terror network worked at such tiny levels, the existence of subversive groups within Germany had to be impossible. And those groups existed, "worked" and so on, as the same friend of us has endlessly told how "heroic" they were.

If not as if there had been no subversive groups in Soviet-occupied territories despite the supposedly much tighter network of repression, is there, Ovi? And subversives like the White Rose Group who opposed the Nazi murder regime on grounds of conscience were true heroes, in my opinion. The louder Ovi yells that they deserved to have their heads chopped off because they opposed his beloved Führer, the more I like them.

[Scott Smith]

What's the matter, Roberto? I thought you found Ovidius' frankness refreshing.

The louder Ovi yells that they deserved to have their heads chopped off because they opposed his beloved Führer, the more I like them.

No, the White Rose Group did not deserve what they got, unlike Count von Stauffenberg and his fellow-travellers, but perhaps a little time spent in a labor batallion pouring concrete and dumping gravel for the defense of the Reich would have done them a little good. Blitz Mädeln and Flak HJ were the true German heroes, IMHO.

[Ovidius]

subversives like the White Rose Group who opposed the Nazi murder regime on grounds of conscience were true heroes, in my opinion. The louder Ovi yells that they deserved to have their heads chopped off because they opposed his beloved Führer, the more I like them.

They did not deserve to die, because death is not a punishment for stupidity. Otherwise, most of humanity will deserve to die, because the number of fools is immense, and it grows exponentially, thing for which we should thank to the pop-(sub)culture

The best idea for the White Rose people would have been to be sent to a penal unit in Russia or Poland, to search for partisans. The men as ordinary Landsers, the girls as Blitzmadeln. After finding the mutilated bodies of comrades(victims of partisans), I doubt they were going to have any sympathy for those poor guys in the East.

~Ovidius

[Roberto]

subversives like the White Rose Group who opposed the Nazi murder regime on grounds of conscience were true heroes, in my opinion. The louder Ovi yells that they deserved to have their heads chopped off because they opposed his beloved Führer, the more I like them.

They did not deserve to die, because death is not a punishment for stupidity. Otherwise, most of humanity will deserve to die, because the number of fools is immense, and it grows exponentially, thing for which we should thank to the pop-(sub)culture

The best idea for the White Rose people would have been to be sent to a penal unit in Russia or Poland, to search for partisans. The men as ordinary Landsers, the girls as Blitzmadeln. After finding the mutilated bodies of comrades(victims of partisans), I doubt they were going to have any sympathy for those poor guys in the East.

~Ovidius

1. The White Rose Group were at least as concerned with the image and future of Germany, which they saw imperiled by the Nazis' war and atrocities, as they were with the victims of Nazi crimes. And the German soldiers who had succumbed to Hitler's mistakes at Stalingrad were first and foremost on their plate.

2. In Ovi's opinion, Soviet prisoners of war and civilians deserved to be starved, shot, hanged or burned alive in their millions because some individual Soviet soldiers and partisans committed atrocities against some soldiers of the magnificent German Wehrmacht. Nice thinking, Ovi. The honest self-portrayal is highly appreciated.

[Ovidius]

In Ovi's opinion, Soviet prisoners of war and civilians deserved to be starved, shot, hanged or burned alive in their millions because some individual Soviet soldiers and partisans committed atrocities against some soldiers of the magnificent German Wehrmacht.

Did I say that !?

There had to be some hunt for partisans, because those guys existed. And, what do you seem to have forgotten, Mr. R, is that while the partisans and saboteurs were just a nuisance for the Germans, they were a lethal plague for their fellow Soviets or Poles, because after each partisan attack, reprisals would follow, which would hit just a fraction of the partisans, but a lot of innocents.

Which was, of course, very convenient for the Soviet authorities, because it ensured the locals wouldn't cooperate with the German conquerors.

~Ovidius

[Roberto]

In Ovi's opinion, Soviet prisoners of war and civilians deserved to be starved, shot, hanged or burned alive in their millions because some individual Soviet soldiers and partisans committed atrocities against some soldiers of the magnificent German Wehrmacht.

Did I say that !?

There had to be some hunt for partisans, because those guys existed. And, what do you seem to have forgotten, Mr. R, is that while the partisans and saboteurs were just a nuisance for the Germans, they were a lethal plague for their fellow Soviets or Poles, because after each partisan attack, reprisals would follow, which would hit just a fraction of the partisans, but a lot of innocents.

In other words, those bloody partisans were the ones to blame for the German killing sprees that killed about a million people, mostly unarmed civilians, in the occupied territories of the Soviet Union. The fault lies not with the killers, but with those who gave them a pretext to carry out large-scale mass murder. Interesting.

Which was, of course, very convenient for the Soviet authorities, because it ensured the locals wouldn't cooperate with the German conquerors.

Of course.

As the Head of the SS, Heinrich Himmler, admitted a few months before the Germans were driven from the Soviet Union: ‘Perhaps we have overreacted to these bandits, and by this have caused ourselves needless problems.’

Source of quote: Matthew Cooper, The Phantom War, Introduction

[Lebensborn]

I would like to thank those who stayed on topic...LEBENSBORN.
thanks to all those with their opinions and if anyone has names, titles, authors and the such that i could get for information for the Lebensborn program it wil l be much appreciated,
The lebensborn program is excluded from most history textbooks and i just want to find out why, Is it a question of relevance? or is there a deeper meaning behind it? Please as much as "personal" stories are concerned i am interested only in why historians chose to exclude the Lebensborn program.
Any further comments please do not hesitate to contact me at [email protected] for direct access.
And just again thank you for all your opinions and time.

Thanks

[Bomar]

this thread could have been interesting if people would have stopped arguing about who is the more national socialist and who is the less !!

[konig15]

Personally I think the Nazis did some wierd crap, but Lebensborn is not one of the things I'd worry about. I mean, this isn't connected to the "save the Aryan baby by shooting it's Polish parents and give them to SS men" program. Women voluntarily got preggers by studly SS men. Personally I wouldn't do it; if I were a woman I'd want to bear the children of a loving husband. But, if they wanna, why should we care?

Anyway, considering birthrates in the civilized world, the return of Lebensborn is invitable. Men and women have forgotten that the most important thing they ever do is perpetuate the speices. China, Japan, and Western Europe are headed for demographic collapse as pensioners outnumber the workers two to one, something even UN reports say cannot be made up by immigration. The only problem with Lebensborn is that it is to limited to have an effect. But if we get our hands on artificial wombs, in 50 years every major power on earth will be turning out babies by the millions to replace workers not produced via the family. It's a sad comment that feminism and birth control, both in my opinion good things, will ensure the last product produced industrialy by man will be man himself. That's my two cents.