Women In the Waffen SS ?

Discussions on the role played by and situation of women in the Third Reich not covered in the other sections. Hosted by Vikki.
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agibaer
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Post by agibaer » 06 Mar 2004 06:02

Tsts where are the mannors guys?
Welcome to the Forum Insomniaque I hope your stay will be a long one!

What's it with me and women in uniform, geeze... :P :oops: :lol:

regards
robert

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Vikki
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Post by Vikki » 06 Mar 2004 07:13

Female concentration camp guards were not the only women in the service of the SS.

Note that Wenn Alles Brüder Schweigen refers to non-medical SS female personnel who performed clerical/communications duties (I think the usual term "auxiliary" has been misused here, above) as "Helferinnen." Specifically, those pictured in the book are titled "SS-Nachrichtenhelferinnen" (Communications or Signals Helpers). The Telex operator's title of "Fernschreiberin" simply calls her by her specialty training and duties; from her breast patch (and I assume she would have had also a Reichsschule-SS cufftitle---her left lower sleeve is cut off in the picture), she is still an SS-Helferin.

More importantly, note also the difference between the terms "Helferin" and "Aufseherin" (the term used for female SS camp guards). Different titles, different uniforms, different insignia, completely different functions. Bitte.

And agibaer, yes, what IS it with you and women in uniform???
Last edited by Vikki on 06 Mar 2004 07:44, edited 3 times in total.

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agibaer
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Post by agibaer » 06 Mar 2004 07:32

Fraulein Valkyrie wrote:
And agibaer, yes, what IS it with you and women in uniform???
Mainly the parkin fine notices :roll:

regards
robert

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Vikki
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Post by Vikki » 06 Mar 2004 07:57

Mainly the parkin fine notices :roll:

Yes.....how long has your car been parked there???

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agibaer
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Post by agibaer » 06 Mar 2004 08:50

Fraulein Valkyrie wrote:
Mainly the parkin fine notices :roll:

Yes.....how long has your car been parked there???
:lol: I'm not referring to W-SS uniforms :D

regards
robert

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PanzerVI
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Post by PanzerVI » 06 Mar 2004 14:23

Fraulein Valkyrie wrote:Female concentration camp guards were not the only women in the service of the SS.

Note that Wenn Alles Brüder Schweigen refers to non-medical SS female personnel who performed clerical/communications duties (I think the usual term "auxiliary" has been misused here, above) as "Helferinnen." Specifically, those pictured in the book are titled "SS-Nachrichtenhelferinnen" (Communications or Signals Helpers). The Telex operator's title of "Fernschreiberin" simply calls her by her specialty training and duties; from her breast patch (and I assume she would have had also a Reichsschule-SS cufftitle---her left lower sleeve is cut off in the picture), she is still an SS-Helferin.

More importantly, note also the difference between the terms "Helferin" and "Aufseherin" (the term used for female SS camp guards). Different titles, different uniforms, different insignia, completely different functions. Bitte.

And agibaer, yes, what IS it with you and women in uniform???
Dear Fraulein as Philmil said (twice) they were not just camp guards , but operators , clerks etc
I just presumed that their tasks were auxiliary type tasks it was not a statement , correction is always welcome.What are your sorces please ?
The main fact however is that they were not SS Members.
David , thanks mate for the pics.The first was also on the axisforum gallery , what is the full inscription on the second one ?
And agibaer what have parking tickets to do with our discussion ? No offence :lol:

/Bogdan

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Insomniaque
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Post by Insomniaque » 06 Mar 2004 19:52

Ok, thanx to all. I think of having found my response your messages.

So SS women were not just camp guards, but Operators, Nurses etc... Someone know their number ? which unit it has was affiliated in general ?

I also see that my post was moved to this section. So, I've lot of read about the story of Gestapo/SD, some informations or names about some famous female gestapo agent during the war ?

I'll scan my foto this week-end.

Thx to agibaer : I'm always here, but a little long to answer... :)

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PanzerVI
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Post by PanzerVI » 06 Mar 2004 21:44

My dear Insomniaque , regarding yourr question to where could have these women served I have stumbled upon a text from a short auto-biography of a BDM , Julia Zogel : 'Viele Mädchen traten nach ihrer BDM-Zeit ins SS-Helferinnen-Corps ein oder betätigten sich als Flak-Helferinnen.' which means 'Lots of girls entered after their BDM time in the SS-Helferinnen Korps or worked themselves as Flak-Helferinnen'
Further investigation about this Korps is required to put some light on our debate.

Then across this one 'SS Affidavits 95 and 96 prove that the SS woman auxiliaries were neither members of the SS nor sponsors. These girls carried out the same work as the Intelligence and Staff assistants in the Wehrmacht and must not be confused with the female supervisors in the concentration camps for female prisoners. ' from the The Trial of German Major War Criminals ;9th August to 21st August 1946 Two Hundred and Seventh Day: Tuesday, 20th August, 1946 (Part 9 of 9)

Here is another text from a re-enactment group : 'During W.W.II the SS employed female auxiliaries ( SS Helferin ) within their ranks. These were used mainly as Signal personnel ( many decoding secret radio and fax ciphers ). As far as we know they never saw front line service and as such were not issued with weapons or side arms ( as were some Luftwaffe Helferinen ).'

You can see that clear evidence and records are scarce so deeper investigation is needed.The main fact is that you got your question answered , I guess and also hope :)

Bogdan

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Post by Vikki » 06 Mar 2004 23:06

PanzerVI wrote:Dear Fraulein as Philmil said (twice) they were not just camp guards , but operators , clerks etc
I just presumed that their tasks were auxiliary type tasks it was not a statement , correction is always welcome.What are your sorces please ?
The main fact however is that they were not SS Members.
Bogdan,

I was not disagreeing with your statement that SS-Helferinnen's duties were normally of a clerical or communications nature, but with the statement in your first message on this thread that "The only women in the SS were those from SS-Aufseherinnen (Female Concentration Camp Guards)". My source for disagreeing with this is a 14 August 1943 order from Himmler regarding SS-Helferinnen:

1. The designation SS-Helferinnen remains confined to female personnel who have been trained in the Reichsschule SS at Oberenheim/Alsace, tested, and incorporated into the Corps of SS-Helferinnen.

2. All other female employees and workers who are in the service of the SS under contract or by virtue of an Emergency Service Order will be known as Kriegshelferinnen, insofar as they are entitled to be issued with service clothing during their employment in accordance with the Führer's Order of 11 January 1943.

3. Service clothing: The approved service clothing for SS-Helferinnen will also be worn by Kriegshelferinnen, but without distinguishing marks apart from the Hoheitsabzeichen on the headdress and left upper arm. SS runes, sleevebands with the inscription "Reichsschule-SS," and unit emblems are reserved for SS-Helferinnen only.

4. Administration of the Kriegshelferinnen is the responsibility of the unit employing them, in collaboration with the SS-Wirtschafts-Verwaltungs-Hauptamt, but the Chef der Fernmelderwesens (Chief of the Telecommunications Service) is exclusively responsible for SS-Helferinnen.



This translation is from Volume 3 of Beaver's Uniforms of the Waffen-SS. Beaver asserts, and I agree, that SS-Aufseherinnen (female camp guards) would have fallen under the category of SS-Kriegshelferinnen. Numerous pictures in Beaver's book and other sources show exactly the difference between the insignia of SS-Helferinnen and SS-Aufseherinnen that is dictated by #3 of the Order above. Further, unstated by that Order, but clearly shown in the pictures, is that the actual uniforms of the two were also different.

If by your statement that "The only women in the SS were those from SS-Aufseherinnen (Female Concentration Camp Guards)", you meant that they would have more likely been members of the SS than would SS-Helferinnen, I disagree. That SS-Helferinnen were allowed to wear the runes, a cufftitle, and unit emblems, while Aufseherinnen were not, makes it more likely that they, rather than Aufseherinnen, would have been considered members of the SS.

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PanzerVI
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Post by PanzerVI » 06 Mar 2004 23:13

PanzerVI wrote: Then across this one 'SS Affidavits 95 and 96 prove that the SS woman auxiliaries were neither members of the SS nor sponsors. These girls carried out the same work as the Intelligence and Staff assistants in the Wehrmacht and must not be confused with the female supervisors in the concentration camps for female prisoners. ' from the The Trial of German Major War Criminals ;9th August to 21st August 1946 Two Hundred and Seventh Day: Tuesday, 20th August, 1946 (Part 9 of 9)
That was my source.The documented trials of Nuernberg which clearly indicated that they were not SS Members.Also I agree with your that SS Helferinnen were different from SS-Aufseherinnen and perhaps I did a mistake of making myself concise and clear.That order from Himmler sure enlightens up your statement.
Thanks for adding it :)

Bogdan

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David E M
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Post by David E M » 07 Mar 2004 03:47

PanzerVI, thats all there is, that photo follows on from a couple of others on the same page.
Cheers.

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Post by PanzerVI » 07 Mar 2004 04:03

Allright , it's a pitty mate.Thanks for the other ones.
Anyway speaking of those dutch SS-Lazarett Helferinnen I found another pic on a site , too bad the site is in dutch and I understand it partially (it speaks about the SS-Feldlazarett Freiwilligen Legion 'Niederlande' vanaf 12-3-1943 and SS-Lazarett Niederländische Ambulanz vanaf 8-2-1944
Veldpostnummer 47331).
It is somehow like your's , except here I can't see any arm patch only the uniforms of the SS men behind them.
Have a nice day/night down there :)

Bogdan
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Skadi
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Post by Skadi » 09 Mar 2004 07:05

Some pictures of female camp kommandants...

Irma Grese: Overseer at Ravensbruck concentration camp at 19.
Kommander of 18,000 female prisoners at Auschwitz.
Moved to Belsen in 1945.
Sadistic tendencies, fascinated in medical experiments.
Charged as a war criminal & hung in 1946...dragged &
screaming to the gallows.


Ilse Koch: Wife of Karl Koch, became the overseer of the Buchenwald
Camp in 1937.
Sadistic, nymphomaniac. Had a fetish for the skins of dead
prisoners.
Tried & sentenced to life, in 1949. Hung herself at age 61,
in Aibach prison in 1967.
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PanzerVI
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Post by PanzerVI » 09 Mar 2004 12:29

Good pics , very helpful.

Bogdan

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Helvik
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Post by Helvik » 09 Mar 2004 18:20

Skadi wrote:Some pictures of female camp kommandants...

Irma Grese: Overseer at Ravensbruck concentration camp at 19.
Kommander of 18,000 female prisoners at Auschwitz.
Moved to Belsen in 1945.
Sadistic tendencies, fascinated in medical experiments.
Charged as a war criminal & hung in 1946...dragged &
screaming to the gallows.

I am curious, what is the source for "dragged & screaming to the gallows"? In Albert Pierrepoint's "Executioner" he recounts the hanging of Irma Grese as follows:
... 'Are you ready, Pierrepoint?' I answered 'Yes sir. 'Gentlemen, follow me,' he said, and the procession started.

We climbed the stairs to the cells where the condemned were waiting. A German officer at the door leading to the corridor flung open the door and we filed past the row of faces and into the execution chamber. The officers stood at attention. Brigadier Paton-Walsh stood with his wrist-watch raised. He gave me the signal, and a sigh of released breath was audible in the chamber, I walked into the corridor. 'Irma Grese,' I called.

The German guards quickly closed all grills on twelve of the inspection holes and opened one door. Irma Grese stepped out. The cell was far too small for me to go inside, and I had to pinion her in the corridor. 'Follow me,' I said in English, and O'Neil repeated the order in German. She walked into the execution chamber, gazed for a moment at the officials standing round it, then walked on to the centre of the trap, where I had made a chalk mark. She stood on this mark very firmly, and as I placed the white cap over her hand she said in her languid voice 'Schnell'. The drop crashed down, and the doctor followed me into the pit and pronounced her dead. After twenty minutes the body was taken down and placed in a coffin ready for burial.

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