Nazi Germany's High Birth-Rate: Ideology or Nature?

Discussions on the role played by and situation of women in the Third Reich not covered in the other sections. Hosted by Vikki.
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maxxx
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Post by maxxx » 10 Sep 2004 22:57

by now we are definitely off topic. If you want to continue, we should open a thread in the lounch.

greetings

maxxx

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Einsamer_Wolf
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Post by Einsamer_Wolf » 10 Sep 2004 23:00

I cannot post in the lounge yet. Not enough posts. Feel free to pm me if you wish. For now I will simply reply that I do think your talk of Bavarians being estranged from Prussians is a bit oversimplistic. These things do give rise to friction, but the degreee of factioanalism is infitely less harmful than what we are experiencing in today's cosmopolitanism.

EW

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Post by Brotherhood of the Cross » 11 Sep 2004 02:58

Einsamer_Wolf wrote:Ours is a nation without heritage, culture or history. No one knows who they are. Maybe that is why most just are not very friendly to one another—why there is no feeling of community, of Volksgemeinschaft as touted in Germany during the National Socialist era.


Well there are other communities who discovered and applied in practice their own "Volkgemeinschaft" long before the Germans did. See the Jews for instance, from that point of view they are the champions of the "Volkgemeinschaft". Are you sure you got your sympathies right? :)

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Geli
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Post by Geli » 11 Sep 2004 04:25

Einsamer_Wolf wrote:consider how the average American young woman speaks. I think all will agree that when Valspeak has risen to such a point that one can hear some bimbo use the word “like” some sixty-plus times in less than five minutes on the subway home (this discounts the use of other general filler words used to express general approval or disapproval), then a society is in various serious decline indeed.


:lol: "Valspeak?" That is so 20 years ago! :wink:

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Einsamer_Wolf
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Post by Einsamer_Wolf » 11 Sep 2004 05:53

Geli wrote:
Einsamer_Wolf wrote:consider how the average American young woman speaks. I think all will agree that when Valspeak has risen to such a point that one can hear some bimbo use the word “like” some sixty-plus times in less than five minutes on the subway home (this discounts the use of other general filler words used to express general approval or disapproval), then a society is in various serious decline indeed.


:lol: "Valspeak?" That is so 20 years ago! :wink:


Obviously, I was using it in a perjorative sense. And no, unfortunately, it is not so dated. Though the phrase "gag me with a spoon" is no longer in favor, excessive use of the word like and other filler words is as much in favor as it ever was. It makes my ears bleed.

EW

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Einsamer_Wolf
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Post by Einsamer_Wolf » 11 Sep 2004 05:57

Well there are other communities who discovered and applied in practice their own "Volkgemeinschaft" long before the Germans did. See the Jews for instance, from that point of view they are the champions of the "Volkgemeinschaft". Are you sure you got your sympathies right? :)


Brother, I think this just strenghtens my argument. The Jews have been able to preserve their religion, languages and customs for thousands of years in the face of tremendous persecution. Their religion and culture provides Jews with a tremendous sense of identiy and purpose, as it fosters a strong emphasis on education, learning, and general awareness of this culture and religion.

EW

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Post by Witch-King of Angmar » 11 Sep 2004 15:33

Einsamer_Wolf wrote:The United States is a very crass society. Most value sheer commercialism above all else, as most are satisfied by the type of bread and circus type gimmicks like professional sports and utterly stupid sit-coms, reality shows, and other network and cable television programming that dim the national conscience.


Millions of people in Europe or Asia do just the same....

Einsamer_Wolf wrote:In my mind these components of The Einsamer Wolf Challenge represent the vices of a rootless society absent the concept of Volksgemeinschaft. People do not know who they are, or what their purpose is in life is, or where they belong, so they find solace in decadence.


The same vices had been and still are practiced by most civilized nations, in North America as well as in Latin America, Europe or East Asia, yet it's easier to find some understanding with an European or Latin American(or even with an Asian) than an American - so either the problem lies elsewhere, or the rest of the world had found a way to overcome it ;) I'll bet on the former: the problem lies elsewhere.

BTW unity among people is not to be found by the means of tyranny, Victorianism or incentives for raising kids. Unity can be established only in pursuit of a common goal plus a common set of ideas(for David C. Clarke: no, Communism does not fit here, but somewhere between tyranny & Victorianism :P ).

~The Witch-King of Angmar

PS there are Jews who serve pop culture and other Jews who practically had invented it...
Last edited by Witch-King of Angmar on 12 Sep 2004 12:17, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Einsamer_Wolf » 12 Sep 2004 01:32

Witch-King of Angmar wrote:
Einsamer_Wolf wrote:The United States is a very crass society. Most value sheer commercialism above all else, as most are satisfied by the type of bread and circus type gimmicks like professional sports and utterly stupid sit-coms, reality shows, and other network and cable television programming that dim the national conscience.


Millions of people in Europe or Asia do just the same....

Einsamer_Wolf wrote:In my mind these components of The Einsamer Wolf Challenge represent the vices of a rootless society absent the concept of Volksgemeinschaft. People do not know who they are, or what their purpose is in life is, or where they belong, so they find solace in decadence.


The same vices had been and still are practiced by most civilized nations, in North America as well as in Latin America, Europe or East Asia, yet it's easier to find some understanding with an European or Latin American(or even with an Asian) than an American - so either the problem lies elsewhere, or the rest of the world had found a way to overcome it ;) I'll bet on the former: the problem lies elsewhere.

BTW unity among people is not to be found by the means of tyranny, Victorianism or incentives for raising kids. Unity can be established only in pursuit of a common goal plus a common set of ideas(for David C. Clarke: no, Communism does not fit here, but somewhere between tyranny & Victorianism : P ).

~The Witch-King of Angmar

PS there are Jews who serve pop culture and other Jews who practically had invented it...


Witch-King,

Where did I ever advocate tyranny? Anyways, we will never agree on this. It is perfectly obvious to me that my position is the correct one--either one can see or he is blind.
As for the Jewsh role in popular culture, I will merely note that anti-semitic remarks, whether justified or not, are clearly discouraged. I do not want to get banned, so I shall not comment further.

EW

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Drew Maynard
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Post by Drew Maynard » 13 Sep 2004 14:30

Interesting post all....it seems there's much more to birthrates and 'mothering' and social experiments than meets the eye.

Definitely one thing I have always wondered about with the 3rd Reich is whether any impact was made upon the general population bith curve by the intention and methods of the government.

As the father of two, and soon three, I find this interesting. I think alot of the attempts made by the then-German goverment to 'right the wrongs' of the past didn't have as great an impact as hoped for by them is that when you talk about generational increases and birth rates, it's not a quick fix or impact. Programs would have to continue for a number of generations to measure and see if there was an impact, either positive or negative.

Much also can be said of other attemps by the government at that time to cincrease or change the direction that the country was going in, from labour to education etc. Was it perhaps to short a span in time to see if they were effective? Also, call me wrong, but it seems as if a nation at war could seriously skew these numbers or put a dent in proactive rate increases.

Good discussion it smelled like it was deteriorating into a flame war, but glad to all that it did not.

Fr. Valkyrie: I am in the midst of reading the Koonz book on German motherhood and sex, family etc- what's your opinion on it? She obviously has some interesting credentials and well versed as a historian, from teh get go, she doesn't waste time on declaring where she stands as far as the topic goes- but before I delve further into it, (my morning commuter train read), is it worth the read?

I believe some sort of 'taxation per marriage status' is still in effect- i know that in Germany today, singles (and these are all people over 18) are taxed higher proportionally comparitive to married couples with children. I know this is somewhat standard and some countries are looking at more 'bonuses' for 'fruitful' families. Does anyone in Europe know of such bonuses? In Canada here, we can receive a paltry 15 bucks a month or something cheesy for a birth of a child, but I don't know of any incentive beyond that.

Regards

'Pappa' Vinland....(doing his best to raise the birthrate, lol) Where's the 'herrnkreuz'? lol

:D

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Post by nondescript handle » 13 Sep 2004 15:59

Vinland wrote:[...]I believe some sort of 'taxation per marriage status' is still in effect- i know that in Germany today, singles (and these are all people over 18) are taxed higher proportionally comparitive to married couples with children. I know this is somewhat standard and some countries are looking at more 'bonuses' for 'fruitful' families. Does anyone in Europe know of such bonuses?[...]


I think this is a discussion for the lounge, but:
In addition to the better tax rates for married couples, parents (actually the ward of the child regardless of legal status) in Germany receive Kindergeld, child benefit, by the federal republic:
154 Euros (~184 US$) per month per child (for the first to third child, 179 Euros (~214 US$) for the fourth child and every one after that).
E.g. a couple with four children receives 641 Euros (~769 US$) child benefit per month.

There is the alternative to 'tade in' the Kindergeld for a certain tax extemption per child if that is more beneficial, so the Kindergeld is the minimal amount.

Regards
Mark

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Geli
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Post by Geli » 13 Sep 2004 19:29

[quote="Vinland] I know that in Germany today, singles (and these are all people over 18) are taxed higher proportionally comparitive to married couples with children. I know this is somewhat standard and some countries are looking at more 'bonuses' for 'fruitful' families[/quote]

But was this policy created as an incentive to have more children and boost the population, or was it created to lift some of the financial burden from families that already have many children?

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Post by nondescript handle » 13 Sep 2004 20:59

Geli,
ultimately it's as broad as it's long, isn't it?

The precise reason why married couples and parents have lower tax rates and are able to split their tax base is a ruling of the Constitutional Court of 1957.

Before 1958 double income married couples actually paid more taxes than unmarried ones (all other things equal), this was ruled unconstitutional (cf Article 6 sentence one of the German constitution:"Marriage and family enjoy the special protection of the state.").

The ultimate goal of the constitutional protection of marriage and family is of course to promote children, i.e. population growth.

Regards
Mark

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Vikki
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Post by Vikki » 13 Sep 2004 21:21

Vinland wrote:Fr. Valkyrie: I am in the midst of reading the Koonz book on German motherhood and sex, family etc- what's your opinion on it? She obviously has some interesting credentials and well versed as a historian, from teh get go, she doesn't waste time on declaring where she stands as far as the topic goes- but before I delve further into it, (my morning commuter train read), is it worth the read?


Koonz' book is definitely worth the read, although it may be a little heavy at times for anyone who's not specifically interested in the history of "The Woman Question" in Germany. I've read it through a couple of times, and now mostly use it for its almost encyclopedic references to the history of German women's organizations in the 1930s and 40s. One of Koonz' main theses seems to be that Reich Women's Leader Gertrud Scholtz-Klink and other Nazi women's leaders "sold out" any earlier gains or potential political power on women's issues, by buying into and promoting (to secure their own positions) the Nazi ideology on women's roles. This ideology generally represented only upper- and upper-middle-class women, and ignored the interests of lower-class women and others who were outside of (or unwilling to comply with) the "ideal".

Overall, though, it's very informative on the issues being discussed here and similar ones.



'Pappa' Vinland....(doing his best to raise the birthrate, lol) Where's the 'herrnkreuz'? lol

:D


Don't feel overlooked! In addition to the Mother's Cross, in the Third Reich there was also a more general badge and organization for large families (Reichsbund der Kinderreichen). Its membership was for families of four or more children. So you have only one more to go! :D

~FV

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Drew Maynard
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Post by Drew Maynard » 14 Sep 2004 13:27

fraulein;

early on in the book it seems as if the theme seems to be a sellout of original ideals to gain power/position/affluence in the NSDAP power structure, which is interesting, seems alot of people throughout the web of organizations did the same, but that in the women's organizations, it seemed to take on a 'benficial to the prussian' nobility type only. A former BDM girl I knew was a little grumpy of the fact that working class or lower class females were looked down upon, because of social class by others in the group, as if they were hangers on of some sort, that the BDM was a membership group for the elite.......

thanks for the info. never heard of that badge - the reichsbund badge- do you have any photos of it? Laff- going for gold does have a different meaning than it does in the olympics when you look at the mothers' cross, laff...

thanks for all your input so far. much appreciated as always.

vinland

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Vikki
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Post by Vikki » 15 Sep 2004 05:18

Vinland,

Check J.R. Cone's book on enamel badges of the Third Reich. But, as I know you're also a collector, beware that the RDK badges are heavily faked. Who'd have thought there would be so much interest in that kind of badge, to reproduce them?

~FV

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