Female Auxiliary Photographs

Discussions on the role played by and situation of women in the Third Reich not covered in the other sections. Hosted by Vikki.
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Annelie
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Post by Annelie » 10 Nov 2006 20:01

I really enjoy looking at these photos but I cannot help but wonder
if the women whom maybe are still alive, what they would think
having their photos posted on the net?

In conversation with people in their 80's one sometimes hears the
men talking about their time but never a word from any women.
Can't help but think they would not be pleased but how I like
to see them and how they lived and their contributions.
Perhaps their children would be interested.

One day I would like to see a thread of photos of volunteer
workers.....not the upaid workers. :)

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Heimatschuss
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Post by Heimatschuss » 10 Nov 2006 22:35

Hello Ancasta,

you wrote:
Actually the above photo was taken before 1944, as the new-style M44 was issued to the ladies after February 1944
My reference for dating the jackets was:
Brian L. Davis
Uniformen und Abzeichen der Luftwaffe 1940- 1945
Motorbuch Verlag, Stuttgart, 2001
p.246
He writes that both jackets (the cloth belt jacket as well as the M44) were introduced in 1944. The silver piping on the Führerin collars appeared in October 1943 (p.245). Not that I regard Davis as an absolute authority. Even the book's translator points out some errors. It's just the only major work I have available. If Angolia has diverging information feel free to post it. I'm no authority in this field and always like to see hints to the flaws of the books I'm relying on.

BTW, the RAD broochs on the girls from Postmoor are an excellent observation. Didn't notice that.

Best regards
Torsten
Last edited by Heimatschuss on 10 Nov 2006 22:48, edited 2 times in total.

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ancasta
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Post by ancasta » 10 Nov 2006 22:41

Heimatschuss wrote:This is interesting. Captured female auxiliaries, two of them in male uniforms.
That photo is a super find!
You see, if I now add to it another, more famous photo you will get an interesting sequence. The first shows the three terrified ladies at the moment of capture - in the larger version of this photo you will see thousands of German POW's marching past just behind the Panzerfaust box, and two of the ladies were pulled from their ranks trying to hide from the Russians disguised as men (although looking at the pants and boots of the first Helferin she really does look like a dyed-in-the-wool Flakhelferin)
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ancasta
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Post by ancasta » 10 Nov 2006 23:00

Heimatschuss wrote: My reference for dating the jackets was:
Brian L. Davis
Uniformen und Abzeichen der Luftwaffe 1940- 1945
Motorbuch Verlag, Stuttgart, 2001
p.246
Torsten
Hi there again - he has by his own admittance made some mistakes in the books and some serious American collectors have also discovered some small mistakes. This is an easy mistake to make if you cover your topic too far and wide. The author is alledgedly planning to revise his books for this reason but I dont know if this is true. My sources are from Germany and include:

'Frauen zu den Waffen?' by Franz W. Seidler - First Edition
'Blitzmadchen' by Franz W. Seidler - Third Edition
'Frauen im Kriegsdienst 1914-1945' by Ursula Von Gersdorff - First Edition

Naturally I'm only human and can make mistakes too regarding dating! :D What is interesting to note is that the Flakhelferin pockets varied - some photos have them with rounded edges and some with square edges.

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Heimatschuss
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Post by Heimatschuss » 10 Nov 2006 23:04

Good post Ancasta,

I remembered the panzerfaust crate photo some time after posting the other one but didn't have a suitable copy available. I've even seen the panzerfaust pic with a subtitle that these were actually soviet POWs. Good to know that they were able to evade the worst case scenario.

For the late evening attendance some small portraits.
Sources:
http://www.ebay.de auction: 330041623900 Backside of the photo says "Besancon 30.01.1944"
http://www.ebay.de old auction
http://www.ebay.de auction: 160049228399

Best regards
Torsten
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ancasta
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Post by ancasta » 10 Nov 2006 23:13

Heimatschuss wrote:I've even seen the panzerfaust pic with a subtitle that these were actually soviet POWs. Good to know that they were able to evade the worst case scenario.
I have to admit I'm with you on that point - I too was under the impression that they were captured by the Russians, reinforced by the look of sheer terror on the face of the middle Helferin.

Regarding issue dates of uniforms - the same author you mention says in another book that RADwJ were issued with pants and M44 jackets 'on paper', but never in the field. However, I have seen two sets of uniforms now which casts doubt on this. Mind you, perhaps a very limited number of women were lucky enough to be issued with them just months before the war ended.

I shall return to my book collection and see what I can dig up about the actual day of Luftwaffe M44 issue. I was always under the impression that the older hands kept the earlier style and just the new hands, mainly drawn from the RADwJ, got the M44? What are your thoughts?

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Vikki
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Post by Vikki » 11 Nov 2006 19:52

Heimatschuss wrote:My reference for dating the jackets was:
Brian L. Davis
Uniformen und Abzeichen der Luftwaffe 1940- 1945
Motorbuch Verlag, Stuttgart, 2001
p.246
He writes that both jackets (the cloth belt jacket as well as the M44) were introduced in 1944. The silver piping on the Führerin collars appeared in October 1943 (p.245). Not that I regard Davis as an absolute authority. Even the book's translator points out some errors. It's just the only major work I have available. If Angolia has diverging information feel free to post it.
Angolia in fact agrees, dating the issue of both jackets to 1944 (the longer hip-length jacket to early in the year and the shorter, “M44” style jacket to the end of 1944). He doesn’t give specific orders in this case, but as most of his information is backed up with citations of the actual orders or Dienstordnung directives (for example, LV 43, No. 2015 of 20 October 1943 for the aluminum cord on Führerin collars; LV 41, No. 896 of 28 July 1941 and Manual of 7 June 1944 prescribing rank insignia), his dating generally tends to be very credible.


By the way, Führerin ranks were equivalent to Officer ranks (not NCO), a Führerin being equivalent to a Leutnant, an Oberführerin to an Oberleutnant, a Hauptführerin to a Hauptmann, etc.

Best,
~Vikki

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Heimatschuss
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Post by Heimatschuss » 11 Nov 2006 21:30

Hi Ancasta,
Love to know what the woman on the right is thinking though in the above photo
Perhaps one of the 'California Dream Boys' was lost in teleportation and landed on a German barracks yard in 1944 by accident. :lol:
The sergeant is obviously trying hard to drag some regulation governing such cases from the remote recesses of his mind.

Best regards
Torsten
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Heimatschuss
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Post by Heimatschuss » 11 Nov 2006 21:53

Ancasta wrote:
I shall return to my book collection and see what I can dig up about the actual day of Luftwaffe M44 issue. I was always under the impression that the older hands kept the earlier style and just the new hands, mainly drawn from the RADwJ, got the M44? What are your thoughts?
I'm without any specific expertise in this field but some general ideas:
a)
In 1944 German resources in materials and manpower were so low that nobody would have started a major uniforms exchange program without the utmost necessitiy. You got what was available at the moment and kept that kit. Available stocks of any kind had to be used up if possible.
b)
German late war uniforms were considerably inferior to earlier models in fabric quality as well as mending. I doubt anyone owning a good early war uniform would have voluntarily exchanged that for a piece worth much less.

Best regards
Torsten

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ancasta
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Post by ancasta » 13 Nov 2006 17:55

Heimatschuss wrote:Perhaps one of the 'California Dream Boys' was lost in teleportation and landed on a German barracks yard in 1944 by accident. :lol:
The sergeant is obviously trying hard to drag some regulation governing such cases from the remote recesses of his mind.
My seven year old son had a cheekier interpretation and said 'Mummy, I think that man farted as the photo was taken'. :lol:
Out of the mouths of babes...
b) German late war uniforms were considerably inferior to earlier models in fabric quality as well as mending. I doubt anyone owning a good early war uniform would have voluntarily exchanged that for a piece worth much less.
True. I do remember reading somewhere about a Maidenfuhrerin in the RADwJ saying in 1944 how much the girls cried when they handed in their uniform after completing their service. She thought it was because they were going to miss all their Kameraden, other more cynical people think it was because they had to hand back good quality clothing and go back to wearing old worn-out things!

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FRANCY RITTER
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Post by FRANCY RITTER » 15 Nov 2006 16:58

Hello to all!! :)
Luftwaffe Helferin in airfield...
From ebay exp. auction
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Heimatschuss
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Post by Heimatschuss » 15 Nov 2006 23:04

Hello Francy,

noticed that auction too ( http://www.ebay.com Item number: 290042914728 ). :)

I've swept the airfield and tidied up the girls a bit so that they will pass the inspection. Only the leftmost women (leaders) are clad in uniform while the rest is in civilian clothes. Therefore the picture must have been taken after summer 1942 and the location must be inside Germany.

The planes are interesting too. The one in the background on the left seems to be an old Heinkel He 111 from a series that was produced before 1939. On the right is a later Heinkel model with the newly designed cockpit section. The wing of the plane on the extreme right bears the letter 'T' which you can also see vaguely on the wing of the leftmost He 111. Seems to be the base of a Luftwaffe flying unit that had a unit identification starting in 'T'.

General information on Heinkel He-111:
http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Waffen/He111-R.htm

Luftwaffe airborne units with a designation starting in 'T':
http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Zus ... ngen-R.htm
http://users.hol.gr/~nowi/luftcodes/index.html

I got their inventories from:
http://www.ww2.dk/

and had the following results:
T1 - Aufklärungsgruppe 10
(no He111 in the inventories)

T2 - Ergänzungsgruppe (Schlepp) 2
See below

T3 - Bordfliegerstaffel 196; 1./Bordfliegergruppe 196
(No He111 in the inventories.)

T4 - Verbindungsstaffel Luftflotte 2
(Seems to have had only Junkers W 34 and was in Italy anyway)

T5 - Aufklärungsgruppe ObdL, Kommando Rowehl
(All elements except 4.(F)/ObdL in the Soviet Union since summer 1941, Jan. 1943 dissolved)
(Inventories of 4.(F)/ObdL show only He 111-H and He111-P models since summer 1942, no early types.)

T6 - Stuka-Geschwader 2, from Oct.1943 Schlachtgeschwader 2, III./Stuka-Geschwader 3 (1942), Stuka Ergänzungs-Staffel/VIII. Fliegerkorps
(No He111 in the inventories)

T9 - Versuchsverband Transport des OBdL, Erprobungskommando des OKL, "Zirkus Rosarius"
(No He111 in the inventory)
http://www.ww2.dk/air/transport/ergs2.html says about this unit:
Ergänzungsgruppe (S) 2 [Glider Training Group]
Gruppenkommandeure:
Oberst Karl Drewes, 12.12.40 - 23.3.42
ObLt Albert Snowadzki, 3.42 - 10.11.42
Hptm Hans-Günther Nevries, 1.43 - 12.11.43
ObLt Albert Snowadzki, 13.11.43 - 9.9.44
Formed 12.40 in Gutenfeld as Fliegerschule der Luftwaffe (S). In 6.41 moved to Stuttgart-Süd, and began training with the Me 321, with 2 Ausbildungskommandos in Leipheim and Obertraubling. In early 1942 four LS-Staffeln (Ausbildung) were formed in Posen (now known as Fliegerschule (Schlepp) Posen), with DFS.230 and Go 242.

In 4.42 renamed Ergänzungsgruppe (S) 2 with:
Stab/Ergänzungsgruppe (S) 2
1./Ergänzungsgruppe (S) 2
2./Ergänzungsgruppe (S) 2
3./Ergänzungsgruppe (S) 2
4./Ergänzungsgruppe (S) 2

In 6.42 part of the Gruppe was used to form II./LLG2. In 6.42 1./Erg.Gr.(S) 2 became 5./LLG2. In 8.42 1. (Go)/Lw.Kdo.Don was formed from parts of the Gruppe with Go 242.

On 9.11.42 most of the unit was ordered to convert to an Infanterie-Bataillon (4 coys.) with 756 men. The Infanterie-Bataillon left Posen 10.11.42 for Reggio in southern Italy, and on 20.11.42 arrived in Bizerta and became I./Regiment Barenthin.

The remains in Posen was soon rebuilt, and became fully operational.

On 9.9.44 moved to Würzburg and was disbanded.

Used the following aircraft: Avia B.534, Bf 110, Bloch 175, Bü 131, Bü 181, DFS.230, Do 17, Do 23, Fi 156, Fw 58, Go 242, Grunau Baby, He 46, He 72, He 111, Hs 126, Ju 52, Kl 35, Kranich, Letov S.328, Me 321, MS.230 and W.34

Bases:
12.40 - 10.6.41 Gutenfeld
11.6.41 - 10.41 Stuttgart-Süd
10.41 - 9.44 Posen*

* in early 1944, one staffel was based at Schroda, and one staffel at Bednary.
So location, time frame and equipment are fitting. Therefore I'm pretty convinced that this is the unit where the Helferinnen worked (or they belonged to the airfield where the unit was stationed). Training units didn't always get top notch equipment. Hence the old Heinkel that was presumably used up there towing gliders. The men are all still equipped with jackboots so the date should be closer to 1942 than to 1944. Can anyone confirm that the area of Posen (Poznan) looks like this?

Best regards
Torsten
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Matt Gibbs
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Post by Matt Gibbs » 18 Nov 2006 12:55

Unless they are on a flying day trip out somewhere for inspection or orientation, the aircraft could be visiting another field anywhere within their range ;)
However, you are right that they do indeed look like the very early He111 version as produced for civil airliner purposes and then later claimed by the Luftwaffe for transport purposes for higher level staff or long distance flights, and training.
Regards
Matt Gibbs

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ancasta
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Post by ancasta » 20 Nov 2006 11:46

Anyone know anything about this film? Certainly a war film I've never heard of.
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Scarlett
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Post by Scarlett » 20 Nov 2006 15:50

"Blitzmädels an die Front" is 1958 movie.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0051417/

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