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Discussions on the role played by and situation of women in the Third Reich not covered in the other sections. Hosted by Vikki.
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Vikki
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Post by Vikki » 11 Feb 2005 05:40

Fraulein Valkyrie wrote:
Eindecker wrote:Here is one of my more interesting dog tags - not a photo as everyone wants but another log on the fire - I think you can read the descrition below.
Eindecker,

I'd be interested in any additional information you have on this tag.

Not to be insulting, but a pretty questionable example of a "woman's" Erkennungsmarke. First of all, what, aside from the label by the guy who sold it to you, makes you think it's a woman's dogtag?

As even the seller says, the title on the thing is pretty confusing as to why a woman's tag would be labeled as a Hauptmann. (Hauptmann = not any female rank. Women in service had different titles for equivalent ranks).

The common abbreviations for Luftwaffe Helferin are Lw.-Helferin or Ln.-Helferin.

How does one get “Women’s Working Group of the NS German Students’ League” from “Anst”??? And why would a member of the “Women’s Working Group of the NS German Students’ League” need an Erkennungsmarke?

And on and on.....

The only thing I would say about the tag is that from the corrosion pattern it does appear to be aluminum.

~FV
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nondescript handle
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Post by nondescript handle » 11 Feb 2005 06:32

I agree with Fraulein Valkyrie. I would read the Mun. Anst. as Munitionsanstalt (ordnance institution). Especially as there was an ordnance company in Blumenau.

Regards
Mark

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Vikki
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Post by Vikki » 11 Feb 2005 07:31

Mark,

Although I no more believe that this is a female Erkennungsmarke than I believe that my 120-lb. dog is going to sprout wings and fly tomorrow....just for the sake of arguments.....

Your mention of "Mun. Anst." as "Munitionsanstalt" brought this to mind: the initial organization and terms of service of Helferinnen were first specified by a 1940 order by the Ch.H.Rüst.u.B.d.E.. My best efforts at untangling this abbreviation, through both French and German, is to translate it as "Director of Armaments of the Army and Commandant of the Army of the Interior."

First question: With your obvious knowledge of these 1940s abbreviations, do you have a better translation?

Second question: Does this translation (of the "...anst" part) have any bearing on the Erkennungsmarke shown here? (Given my other reservations about the piece, I doubt it.)

Your thoughts would be very much appreciated.

~FV

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Post by nondescript handle » 11 Feb 2005 07:53

Fraulein Valkyrie wrote:[...] Ch.H.Rüst.u.B.d.E.. My best efforts at untangling this abbreviation, through both French and German, is to translate it as "Director of Armaments of the Army and Commandant of the Army of the Interior."
First question: With your obvious knowledge of these 1940s abbreviations, do you have a better translation?[...]
Ch.H.Rüst.u.B.d.E. = Chef der Heeresrüstung und Befehlshaber des Ersatzheeres
I would hesitate to translate the Ersatzheer with 'Army of the Interior'. The Ersatzheer would have used at home, but the main task was to train and organise the replacement for the front units. I would prefer 'replacement army'.
Fraulein Valkyrie wrote:[...]Second question: Does this translation (of the "...anst" part) have any bearing on the Erkennungsmarke shown here? [...]
I know next to nothing how the ordnance production and R&D was organised, but as a native German speaker I'm fairly sure that "ANST." in this case is the abbreviation of Anstalt and not of Arbeitsgemeinschaft Nationalsozialistischer Studentinnen.
And without the link to the Arbeitsgemeinschaft Nationalsozialistischer Studentinnen there is not the faintest hint that this dog tag belonged to a female person.

Regards
Mark

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Vikki
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Post by Vikki » 11 Feb 2005 08:13

Mark,

Danke sehr!


Bestens,

~FV

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Siegfried Wilhelm
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Post by Siegfried Wilhelm » 11 Feb 2005 18:30

Any ideas as to why this perticular Erkennungsmarke is mainly only stamped on one half? I mean wouldn't that defeat the purpose of the tag in the first place?
The half stamped is the 'body' half. the other half that would be taken, has only a three digit number--which wouldn't tell the records people a thing.
Most unusual.

Perhaps it wasn't used as an Erkennungsmarke at all--just a tag for something utilizing an Erkennungsmarke blank? Or maybe never finished and thus never used at all? Or....?

SW~

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Post by Eindecker » 12 Feb 2005 23:47

An interesting thing to follow - I normaly dont collect dog tags, but the description was interesting - sucker I guess for a potential skirt?? Anyhow - it didnt cost me much. Would like to know then for what it is?? Of not a female dog tag...

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Vikki
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Post by Vikki » 13 Feb 2005 18:10

Eindecker wrote:I normaly dont collect dog tags, but the description was interesting - sucker I guess for a potential skirt??
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Actually, I've seen it done fairly often, that if a dealer doesn't quite know what a piece is, they put it off as a "female" item. Maybe because so little is generally known about women's items? And perhaps also because of the "skirt" appeal?


Would like to know then for what it is?? Of not a female dog tag...
I think Siegfried's suggestions are good ones.

~FV

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Post by Karl » 16 Feb 2005 13:24

Luftwaffe had a great need for these special ladies. I have some interesting photos of ‘Luftwaffenhelferinnen an Punktgeräten und Luftlagekarten’. Regarding the former, they seem to be massed on elevated platforms, each armed with periscope type devices.

Karl

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Post by Vikki » 19 Feb 2005 05:05

Karl,

Although I'm not familiar with the specific photos you've mentioned, I think from your description and titles, the "periscope type devices" are range-finding equipment.

~FV

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Post by Karl » 19 Feb 2005 20:23

Heh-he yes. Something like that though believe it or not, I am not very military and do not know at all what you mean. :)

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Geoff Walden
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Post by Geoff Walden » 22 Feb 2005 12:09

Fraulein Valkyrie wrote:Mark,

Your mention of "Mun. Anst." as "Munitionsanstalt" brought this to mind: the initial organization and terms of service of Helferinnen were first specified by a 1940 order by the Ch.H.Rüst.u.B.d.E.. My best efforts at untangling this abbreviation, through both French and German, is to translate it as "Director of Armaments of the Army and Commandant of the Army of the Interior."

First question: With your obvious knowledge of these 1940s abbreviations, do you have a better translation?

~FV

Agreed - "Mun.Anst." = Munitions Anstalt, commonly abbreviated as MUNA. A Luftwaffe Munitionsanstalt would be a LuftMUNA. I believe the "Hpt." to equal Haupt- ; therefore, the abbreviation probably stands for Luftwaffe Haupt Munitionsanstalt - Luftwaffe Main Ammunition Site (normally an area where ammunition was both manufactured and stored).

Geoff Walden

Karl
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Post by Karl » 22 Feb 2005 16:23

Is there no one that can shed some light on what those girls with the periscopes…I mean telescopes, were up to?

Karl
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Post by Karl » 24 Feb 2005 03:27

BTW and for those interested, the photograph in question can found at:

Michaelis, Prof. Dr. Herbert et al. Der 2. Weltkrieg – Bilder Daten Dokumente. Gesamtherstellung Mohndruck Reinhard Mohn OHG, Gütersloh. Pg. 516.

[A work I highly recommend. A welcome addition to anyone’s (relevant) library, even if you don’t read German; the amount of pictorial coverage, the detailed charts and maps make this a valuable reference tool and resource all it’s own.]

Karl

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Post by knieptang » 24 Feb 2005 03:58

Another advice would be to search for the term SS - Helferinnen, you will find close to 1000 links, most of them in german language.

You will find a few pictures, on the other hand some very detailed stories, written by Helferinnen and also written by the victims of these Helferinnen, mostly very sad memories, not a very nice theme...

To sorry, most of this information is only online in german language.

Michael

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