Operation Uranus Soviet Strength Reports

Discussions on all aspects of the USSR, from the Russian Civil War till the end of the Great Patriotic War and the war against Japan. Hosted by Art.
Von Heydte
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Re: Operation Uranus Soviet Strength Reports

Postby Von Heydte » 10 Feb 2017 22:05

Absolutely amazing data. Do those same links provide strength reports for the Voronezh and Trancaucasus Fronts? I am trying to build a simulation with the most accurate data possible and these reports are exactly what I was looking for. Thank you so much for your time!

Trey

Art
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Re: Operation Uranus Soviet Strength Reports

Postby Art » 12 Feb 2017 14:11

And what date exactly? As I remember, even secondary sources contained some information on both fronts.

Von Heydte
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Re: Operation Uranus Soviet Strength Reports

Postby Von Heydte » 12 Feb 2017 15:46

The same date - 19/20 November 1942. I am working on a simulation that covers the German 2nd Army all the way down to the Caucasus. I am trying to get the strength numbers as close to historical as possible. I looked over the links that you provided and it looks to contain a wealth of knowledge. Are there certain Russian key words that you would suggest to bring up similar strength reports? I don't speak Russian but I have some primers that help me get the information that I need. I have a friend of mine that is working through the Oder-Vistula simulation and could use similar information.

Trey

Dann Falk
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Re: Operation Uranus Soviet Strength Reports

Postby Dann Falk » 16 Feb 2017 01:22

Greetings Art,

I need a little more information/clarification.

When you said about the 1-16 column tables...

Art wrote:Ok, numerated columns:
1. Total personnel
2. Including service elements


I take it that column 1. = Total combat personnel
and that column 2. = Total service elements

And that the service elements are NOT included in the totals of 1. Total personnel/Total combat personnel.

If we look at table here...https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=131308081

we see:
The totals at the bottom is 33,677 men Column 1
and 8773 men in service elements Column 2

If Column 2 is included within Column 1 (subtracted), then that leaves only 24,904 men in combat units...which is too few for the 64A on 20 Nov 42, The start of the big offensive at Stalingrad.

I have another source (a Soviet source) which lists 53,742 total people in the 64 A with 49,490 combat troops on Nov 1 42, which equals 4,252 people in non-combat roles. These totals makes sense.

So to sum up:

On tables with 16 columns, Column 1 = Total combat personnel and Column 2 = Total additional personnel in service elements.

What is your take on this? I think this is correct.

Thanks,

Dann

Art
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Re: Operation Uranus Soviet Strength Reports

Postby Art » 16 Feb 2017 12:21

Well, "total men" can only means total men, I guess. That document is obviously incomplete because it doesn't count any artillery or tank units. The war diary of the Stalingrad Front posted above additionally counts 3 tank brigades, 4 artillery regiments and army blocking detachments for a total of 38 628 men in battle units. And even the war diary didn't count everything because anti-aircraft or rocket units and also 20th AT Brigade were omitted, but they were definitely present. Then you will have different numbers for different dates because of the different OOB.

Art
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Re: Operation Uranus Soviet Strength Reports

Postby Art » 16 Feb 2017 12:56

Dann Falk wrote:I have another source (a Soviet source) which lists 53,742 total people in the 64 A with 49,490 combat troops on Nov 1 42

That must be a typo BTW. 40 490 men in battle units and 53 724 total on 20.11.42 according to A.Isayev (with BChS handbook as an original source, I suspect). Which can be reconciled with the StF war diary providing for a couple of omitted units.

Art
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Re: Operation Uranus Soviet Strength Reports

Postby Art » 16 Feb 2017 16:03

Dann Falk wrote:If Column 2 is included within Column 1 (subtracted), then that leaves only 24,904 men in combat units...which is too few for the 64A on 20 Nov 42, The start of the big offensive at Stalingrad.

I have another source (a Soviet source) which lists 53,742 total people in the 64 A with 49,490 combat troops on Nov 1 42, which equals 4,252 people in non-combat roles. These totals makes sense.

Juts to be clear: your are talking about two different things. The document of the 64 Army lists service and auxiliary personnel in battle units. Drivers, tailors and medics in rifle divisions, for example. 40 490 combat troops stands for all men in battle units, including mentioned drivers, tailors and medics. So the difference between 53 742 and 40 490 is the strength of non-battle (by Soviet definition) units of the army, they were not covered in any of reports posted this topic. Which is a entity completely different from 8 773 service personnel in the 64 Army's report. The numbers pertain to different groups of people to say it simply.

Dann Falk
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Re: Operation Uranus Soviet Strength Reports

Postby Dann Falk » 16 Feb 2017 17:29

Thanks Art...

I too have noticed missing units, not listed on the strength tables - Artillery, Tank, Engineer, Medical and so on. Some lists are partial lists and even on some, a shift of Total Personnel to column #4.

So it looks like to me, that having different tables, with different sources, displaying different data, along with omitted units makes my efforts to find daily strength totals for different categories very difficult.

I guess that only the "column #1 Total Personnel" can be relied upon on to display clear totals (all units together) for just that day.

By the way my other source is:
Боевой и численный состав Вооруженых Сил СССР в период Великой Отечественной войны (1941-1945 гг.). Статистический сборник №5 (Fighting and strength of the Armed Forces of the USSR during the Great Patriotic War (1941-1945) Statistical Bulletin number 5). For November 1942. This official source lists the 64 Army as having 53,742 people in total on 1 Nov 1942, with 49,490 combat troops.

Thanks again for your help

Dann

Art
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Re: Operation Uranus Soviet Strength Reports

Postby Art » 16 Feb 2017 19:45

Dann Falk wrote:By the way my other source is:
Боевой и численный состав Вооруженых Сил СССР в период Великой Отечественной войны (1941-1945 гг.). Статистический сборник №5 (Fighting and strength of the Armed Forces of the USSR during the Great Patriotic War (1941-1945) Statistical Bulletin number 5). For November 1942. This official source lists the 64 Army as having 53,742 people in total on 1 Nov 1942, with 49,490 combat troops.

That is the same source as quoted by Isaev who just has one different digit (40490 vs 49490). The same for another recent Russian book ("Great Patriotic War: campaigns and strategic operations in numbers"):
Image
So someone clearly has a mistake/typo/misreading and I suggest to check if it's you.
Let's just note a correspondence between the table above and the StF war diary. We have:
62 Army - 41 667/40 472
64 Army - 40 490/38 628
57 Army - 44 720/38 904
51 Army - 56 026/51 161
28 Army - 47 891/46 173
Front's reserve - 27 523/27 550

Dann Falk
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Re: Operation Uranus Soviet Strength Reports

Postby Dann Falk » 16 Feb 2017 20:53

It looks like I did the typo...I added a 9...Like you said it should be 40,490 men. Thanks for catching my error.

So with 53,742 total people, subtracting the 40,490 = 13,252 non-combat people within the 64 Army on 1 Nov 42. This is a bit more then I have been estimating but reasonable.

FORBIN Yves
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Re: Operation Uranus Soviet Strength Reports

Postby FORBIN Yves » 26 Aug 2017 17:40

I see excellent files for personnel but i search for tanks, number by units, i have some numbers for Corps, good ?
1 TC : 161 tanks
26 TC : 163
4 TC : 143
16 TC : 103
4 MC : 109 seems low
13 TC : 113 seems low
3 GCC normaly don't have
4 CC " "
8 CC " "

If someone can say me more and eventualy for Tanks brigades, thanks.

Art
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Re: Operation Uranus Soviet Strength Reports

Postby Art » 27 Aug 2017 16:40

Operational tanks by 19.11.42:
1 Tank Corps: 8 KV, 67 T-34, 61 T-60. Total 136
26 Tank Corps: 24 KV, 64 T-34, 42 T-70, 27 T-60. Total 157
From P.I. Balashov (1974)

4 Tank Corps: 22 KV, 58 T-34, 53 T-70. Total 143
From "Stalingrad" by A.Isayev

16 Tank Corps: 35 KV, 43 T-34, 30 T-60, 7 T-70. Total 115
Original report by the Don Front:
https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=133337867
For comparison the tank status as of 23.11 (from Isayev):
KV - 35 operational/40 total
T-34 - 37 operational/47 total
T-70 - 5/10
T-60 - 28/43
Total 115/150 tanks

FORBIN Yves
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Re: Operation Uranus Soviet Strength Reports

Postby FORBIN Yves » 27 Aug 2017 21:22

Thanks excellent !

Art
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Re: Operation Uranus Soviet Strength Reports

Postby Art » 28 Aug 2017 08:56

Ok, after digging a little total numbers for the South-West Front:

5 Tank Army

1 Tank Corps:
89 Tank Brigade: 8 KV, 12 T-34, 27 T-60
117 TBde: 32 T-34, 21 T-70
159 TBde: 32 T-34, 21 T-70
Total corps: 8 KV, 76 T-34, 42 T-70, 27 T-60.

26 Tank Corps:
19 TBde: 34 T-34, 21 T-70
157 TBde: 32 T-34, 21 T-70
216 TBde: 24 KV, 4 T-34, 27 T-70
Total corps: 24 KV, 70 T-34, 69 T-70

8 Guards TBde: 18 KV, 3 T-34, 2 T-70, 27 T-60.
510 Flame Tank Battalion: 10 KV-8, 11 OT-34
511 Flame Tank Battalion: 10 KV-8, 11 OT-34

Total 5 TA: 70 KV, 171 T-34, 113 T-70, 54 T-60

21 Army

4 Tank Corps
45 TBde: 25 KV, 27 T-70
69 TBde: 32 T-34, 21 T-70
102 TBde: 35 T-34, 21 T-70
Total corps: 25 KV, 67 T-34, 69 T-70

1 Guards Tank Regiment: 21 KV
2 Guards Tank Regiment: 21 KV
4 Guards Tank Regiment: 21 KV

Total 21 Army: 88 KV, 67 T-34, 69 T-70
Numbers stand for all tanks available including those in need of repair.
Also 2 T-34 and 11 T-60 in 1 Guards Army (unspecified units), in addition probably some tanks in headquarters.

Mostly from a report on operations of SWF tank units in November 42 with corrections.

Art
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Re: Operation Uranus Soviet Strength Reports

Postby Art » 28 Aug 2017 10:30

Regarding mechanized corps. According to a 20 November's report from the Stalingrad Front staff 4 Mechanized Corps had:
112 T-34 and 81 T-70 operational and 5 T-34 and 6 T-70 in repair. Total 117 T-34 and 87 T-70. It must be said that the tables of organization provided for 5 tank regiments (including 3 organic to mechanized brigades and two separate regiments), each with 23 T-34 and 16 T-70, one armored car battalion with 7 T-70 and 2 T-34 in the corps HQ. Total exactly 117 T-34 and 87 T-70.

13 Tank (Mechanized) Corps was supposed to have the same organization save for the missing armored car battalion. So theoretically 117 T-34, 80 T-70. In reality the corps hadn't fully arrived when the operation started and by the morning of 20 November in the staging area west of the Volga River there were only 2 of 3 mechanized brigades and 3 of 5 tank regiments with the following operational tanks:
44 Tank Regiment: 20 T-34, 15 T-70
163 Tank Regiment: 22 T-34, 15 T-70
176 Tank Regiment: 21 T-34, 15 T-70
Total 63 T-34, 45 T-70.


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