Operation Little Saturn

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Von Heydte
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Operation Little Saturn

Postby Von Heydte » 24 Mar 2017 15:16

These forums were extremely helpful on helping me clarify the strength of Soviet units during the initial phase of the Uranus battle. Now, I am moving on to the peripheries of Uranus starting with Operation Little Saturn. If anyone has any useful book references, web pages or the information directly, I greatly appreciate it. So on to my questions.

1. I know that 2nd Air Army has units that were attached to the Southwest Front during Uranus. What was the true air strength of the entire 2nd Army on or about 19 November 1942 to include air units supporting both Voronezh and Southwest Fronts? References that I have show that 2nd Air Army had 163 aircraft (139 Serviceable) but I don't know if this number only includes the number of aircraft that were attached to Southwest Front during Uranus.

2. Trying to get the relative strength nailed down between the Hungarians, Italians and Germans and the Soviet units of the Voronezh Front on 19 November and those that participated in Little Saturn. Anything would be of help here. Total strength numbers of Armies, Corps, Divisions, etc.

Trey

Art
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Re: Operation Little Saturn

Postby Art » 25 Mar 2017 10:15

According to an official statistical digest ("Soviet air forces in numbers") on 19.11.42 the 2 Air Army/Voronezh Front had:
7 SB bombers total/4 operational
63/56 night bombers
49/44 IL-2s
3/3 Yak-1 fighters
16/12 LaGG-3 fighters
10/7 Hurricanes
15/12 Pe-2 recon airplanes
Total 163 airplanes (139 operational)

As concerns allocation for "Saturn", the is an interesting document titled "Plan of 2 Air Army operations" from 10 December 1942:
https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=151324632
According to the document the offensive was to be supported by:
205 Fighter Aviation Division - 21 fighters, 15 ground-attack planes
227 Ground-Attack Aviation Division - 10 fighters, 35 ground attack-airplanes
208 Night Bomber Aviation Division - 52 U-2, 11 R-2, 7 SB
3 Mixed Air Corps (one regiment) - 32 fighters.
Total 183 airplanes
Can't say right now if actual allocation was different from planned.

Art
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Re: Operation Little Saturn

Postby Art » 26 Mar 2017 09:32

Von Heydte wrote:References that I have show that 2nd Air Army had 163 aircraft (139 Serviceable) but I don't know if this number only includes the number of aircraft that were attached to Southwest Front during Uranus.

I somehow don't understand this part. So "Saturn" or "Uranus"? 2 AA didn't take part in "Uranus" as far as I know.
2. Trying to get the relative strength nailed down between the Hungarians, Italians and Germans and the Soviet units of the Voronezh Front on 19 November and those that participated in Little Saturn

Why not 16 December?

Von Heydte
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Re: Operation Little Saturn

Postby Von Heydte » 31 Mar 2017 16:04

I apologize for not being very clear. I am working on a wargame scenario that begins on 19 November so having the data of Voronezh Front on that date would be most helpful as is any reinforcements that the front received from 19 November to the beginning of Little Saturn. The aircraft allocations for 2nd Air Army is extremely useful and I will be incorporating that data into the scenario. I've read several references that say that significant parts of the 2nd Air Army supported the Southwest Front during Uranus.

Trey

FORBIN Yves
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Re: Operation Little Saturn

Postby FORBIN Yves » 08 Sep 2017 15:33

Von Heydte wrote:These forums were extremely helpful on helping me clarify the strength of Soviet units during the initial phase of the Uranus battle. Now, I am moving on to the peripheries of Uranus starting with Operation Little Saturn. If anyone has any useful book references, web pages or the information directly, I greatly appreciate it. So on to my questions.

1. I know that 2nd Air Army has units that were attached to the Southwest Front during Uranus. What was the true air strength of the entire 2nd Army on or about 19 November 1942 to include air units supporting both Voronezh and Southwest Fronts? References that I have show that 2nd Air Army had 163 aircraft (139 Serviceable) but I don't know if this number only includes the number of aircraft that were attached to Southwest Front during Uranus.

2. Trying to get the relative strength nailed down between the Hungarians, Italians and Germans and the Soviet units of the Voronezh Front on 19 November and those that participated in Little Saturn. Anything would be of help here. Total strength numbers of Armies, Corps, Divisions, etc.

Trey


Interesting battle, wargamer also me mobile combats with Mech units i like much :D

For Aicrafts according Glantz mainly
Sov : 2 Air Army support 6th A and 17 Air Army support 1st GA and 3rd GA : 400 aircrafts : 100 fighters, 135 Atk, 70 Bombers, 100 Po-2
Axis : 4è Luflotte (-) sector Ar Gr B : about 400 without trp

Mech Corps units TCs all full, 1 GMC almost,

Strength, Mech units and Divisions, Bdes :

Voronej Front (-):

6 A : 60000 pers, 280 tanks, 1000 Guns/Heavy Mortars
5 x ID
17 TC : 168 tanks
115 Tank Bde : 41 tanks
82 TR : 34
82 TR : 37

S-W Front (-)

1 GA : 110000 pers, 505 tanks, 1500 Guns/Heavy Mortars
7 x ID, 1 Art Div
18TC : 160 tanks
24 TC : 159
25 TC : 160
126 TR : 12 few normaly only ops
141 TR : 12 few normaly only ops

3 GA : 110000 pers 230 tanks, 1300 Guns/Heavy Mortars
7 x ID + 2 Inf Bdes + 1 Mot Bde
1 CMG : 163 tanks
243 TR : 23
114 TR : 23
119 TR : 23

After more for others Arms and Axis

FORBIN Yves
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Re: Operation Little Saturn

Postby FORBIN Yves » 10 Sep 2017 11:57

Soviet Infantry, artillery

Voronej Front (-):

6 A :
15 Fus Corps : 172, 267, 350 ID
127, 160 ID
5 x ATK Rgts, 3 LRM Rgts, 5 LRM Batteries

S-W Front (-)

1 GA :
4 G Fus Corps : 35, 41 GID, 195 ID
6 G Fus Corps : 38, 44 GID, 1 ID
153 ID
7 Art Div ( 7 Rgts )
12 x LRM Bats, 1 x ATK Rgt

3 GA :
14 G Fus Corps : 159, 203, 266 ID, 14 GID
197, 278 ID, 50 IDG, 90, 94 Inf Bdes, 22 Mot Bde
8 x ATK Rgts, 5 x Art Rgts, 2 x Mo Rgts, 2 x LRM Rgts

Source : From the Don to the Dnepr: Soviet Offensive Operations, December 1942 - August 1943

FORBIN Yves
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Re: Operation Little Saturn

Postby FORBIN Yves » 10 Sep 2017 12:28

Axis Mech units

Source : From the Don to the Dnepr: Soviet Offensive Operations, December 1942 - August 1943
Panzertrupen 2 and others

Total numbers

8 Italian Army
Celere / Aosta Mot Div : 64 : 19 Semovente 47/32c, 45 ligh tanks L6
201 Stug Bat : 31 Stug

Hollidt Army Group
22 Pz : 17 Pz ops total about 50, 5000 pers KG for size
1 Rom Arm Div : 6 tanks ops

Rfts : arrival date to the front, total number
22/12 Tatinskaia : 11 Pz Div : about 50 Pz ops the 08/12 : 78 Pz ops
24/12 : Pz Abt 138 : 38 Pz : 30 Pz IV 75L + 8 Pz III 50 L
25/12 : 19 Pz Div : 68 Pz ops : 10 Pz IV 75L + 3 Pz IV 75K + 8 Pz III 50K + 37 Pz 38t + 7 Pz II + 3 Bef Pz
25/12 Morozovsk : 6 Pz Div : about 100 Pz the 12/12 have 139 Pz
29/12 : 7 Pz Div : 155 Pz full : 18 Pz IV 75L + 2 Pz IV 75K + 91 Pz III 50L + 14 Pz III 75 + 21 Pz II + 9 Bef Pz
12/42 or 01/43 : 209 Stug Bat : 31 Stug

Art
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Re: Operation Little Saturn

Postby Art » 13 Sep 2017 09:22

From report on armored units situation, South-West Front 15 Dec 1942:

24 Tank Corps
54 Tank Brigade - 27 T-34 operational/32 total, 19 T-70 operational/21 total
4 Guards Tank Brigade - 30/32 T-34, 20/21 T-70
130 Tank Brigade - 31/32 T-34, 15/21 T-70

18 Tank Corps
110 Tk Bde - 29/33 T-34, 17/21 T-70
170 Tk Bde - 21/30 T-34, 17/20 T-70
181 Tk Bde - 16/32 T-34, 13/20 T-70

5 Mechanized Corps

50 Mech Bde - 39/39 Mk-II
40 Mech Bde -32/39 Mk-III
45 Mech Bde - 33/39 Mk-III
168 Tk Rgt - 36/39 Mk-II
188 Tk Rgt - 39/39 Mk-II

1 Mechanized Corps
1 Gu.Mech Bde - 19/22 T-34, 13/16 T-70, 1/1 T-60
2 Gu.Mech Bde - 23/23 T-34, 10/10 T-70, 1/1 T-60
3 Gu.Mech Bde - 23/23 T-34, 9/9 T-70, 1/1 T-60
16 and 17 Gu.Tk Rgt - no data. From an earlier report as of 11 Dec 16 GTR had 23 T-34 and 17 GTR - 23 T-34 and 12 T-70

1 Tank Corps
89 Tk Bde - 1/6 T-34, 16/30 T-70, 7/8 T-60, 7/19 Mk-II
117 Tk Bde - 20/44 T-34, 11/24 T-70
159 Tk Bde - 12/38 T-70, 12/25 T-60

114 Tk Rgt - 35/39 M3 medium
119 Tk Rgt - 17/23 T-34, 13/16 T-70
243 Tk Rgt - 22/22 T-34, 16/16 T-70
141, 126, 127 Tk Rgt - in transfer to Kalach station
216 Tk Bde - 11/24 KV, 3/4 T-34, 12/33 T-70
8 Gu.Tk Bde - 10/18 KV, 2/5 T-34, 5/10 T-70, 11/24 T-60
510 and 511 Flame Tank Battalions - no data
https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=132351438

Art
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Re: Operation Little Saturn

Postby Art » 13 Sep 2017 11:46

Also 6 Army/Voronezh Front as of 15 December 1942 (the document is barely readable in some parts):

17 Tank Corps - 90/96 T-34, 61/63 T-70
25 Tank Corps - 72/81 T-34, 39/52 T-60, 5/10 T-70
115 Tank Brigade - 23/31 T-34, 18/23 T-60, 1/1 T-40
82 Tank Regiment - 21/23 T-34, 13/16 T-70
212 Tank Regiment - 23/23 T-34, 14/16 T-70

https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=132347170

FORBIN Yves
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Re: Operation Little Saturn

Postby FORBIN Yves » 13 Sep 2017 20:37

Art wrote:Also 6 Army/Voronezh Front as of 15 December 1942 (the document is barely readable in some parts):

17 Tank Corps - 90/96 T-34, 61/63 T-70
25 Tank Corps - 72/81 T-34, 39/52 T-60, 5/10 T-70
115 Tank Brigade - 23/31 T-34, 18/23 T-60, 1/1 T-40
82 Tank Regiment - 21/23 T-34, 13/16 T-70
212 Tank Regiment - 23/23 T-34, 14/16 T-70

https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=132347170


Interesting 8-) but a lot units are full and even a little more curious... in this case i think it is not the total in units but the theorical total according TOE.

Art
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Re: Operation Little Saturn

Postby Art » 13 Sep 2017 21:55

The document talks about tanks on hand, I'm quite certain about it.

From comparison numbers from corps-level situation reports:

17 Tank Corps as of 14.12.42:
66 Tank Brigade - 30 operational/32 on hand T-34, 19/21 T-70
67 Tank Brigade - 29/32 T-34, 21/21 T-70
174 Tank Brigade - 31/32 T-34, 21/21 T-70
Total corps - 90/98 T-34 (apparently including 2 in corps HQ), 61/63 T-70
https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=132345897

25 Tank Corps as of 14.12.42:
111 Tank Brigade - 7/9 T-34, 30/30 T-60, 3/4 T-70
162 Tank Brigade - 39/43 T-34, 1/1 T-60, 2/4 T-70
175 Tank Brigade - 26/29 T-34, 20/21 T-60, 2/2 T-70
https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=132320402
Total in three brigades - 72/81 T-34, 51/52 T-60, 7/10 T-70

FORBIN Yves
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Re: Operation Little Saturn

Postby FORBIN Yves » 14 Sep 2017 15:45

The problem is for units of the 5 TA take part to combats since 3 weeks and units can't be full by ex
8 Gu.Tk Bde - 10/18 KV, 2/5 T-34, 5/10 T-70, 11/24 T-60 : total 57 theoric 53 + 4 and no lost ?
For me make sense 10 + 2 + 5 +11 : 28

Same for others units of the 5 TA except if they are new units in Rfts by ex 114, 119 Tk Rgts ?

Sorry and again thanks but i don't understand

Art
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Re: Operation Little Saturn

Postby Art » 14 Sep 2017 17:01

FORBIN Yves wrote:The problem is for units of the 5 TA take part to combats since 3 weeks and units can't be full by ex
8 Gu.Tk Bde - 10/18 KV, 2/5 T-34, 5/10 T-70, 11/24 T-60 : total 57 theoric 53 + 4 and no lost ?

I believe you are confusing "being lost" and "being written off". Yes, it's quite possible that no write-offs happened for weeks.
Actually the part relating to 1 Tank Corps seems odd indeed. I guess, due to some mess-up with encoded telephone or radio message. Likely the correct report must read:
1 Tank Corps
89 Tk Bde - 1/6 KV, 16/30 T-34, 7/8 T-70, 7/19 T-60
117 Tk Bde - 20/44 T-34, 11/24 T-70
159 Tk Bde - 12/38 T-34, 12/25 T-70

Which starts to make sense when compared with other docs. 1 TC received more than 80 tanks as replacements in December, hence an increase in tank strength.


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