Soviet Motorcycle Units

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Art
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Re: Soviet Motorcycle Units

Post by Art » 01 Sep 2019 14:44

4 82-mm mortars in the battalion are supported by other documents. I guess, the scheme is simply erroneous at this point, and each of two motorcycle companies had a section of two 82-mm mortars.

Achtung Minen
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Re: Soviet Motorcycle Units

Post by Achtung Minen » 01 Sep 2019 14:48

Art wrote:
01 Sep 2019 14:44
4 82-mm mortars in the battalion are supported by other documents. I guess, the scheme is simply erroneous at this point, and each of two motorcycle companies had a section of two 82-mm mortars.
Interesting, thank you! That raises another question... in addition to the company-level medium mortars, do you think the motorcycle platoons were also still using 50mm light mortars, or had them on paper at least?

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Nakhodchanin
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Re: Soviet Motorcycle Units

Post by Nakhodchanin » 01 Sep 2019 18:44

I am pleased to greet the entire esteemed community! Special greeting to You Art and special greeting to You Achtung Minen, by the way :welcome: Thank you for your translation of organization chart of Motorcycle Battalion! As they say: "Good Luck!" Dear Art has already answered You, I for my part will add the following: firstly - banal mistake or a typo, and even innuendo, example:
01.jpg
Why is there a question mark -
02.jpg
Secondly, by the way, this case leads me to demonstrate what you have never seen before:
I have never seen 82mm mortars attached to infantry platoons during WW2
KStN 126 Bgl.Kp.Pz.Div (1.2.1944) - fragment.jpg
In addition to the official style, here's a great graphics:http://www.wwiidaybyday.com/kstn/kstn1261feb44.htm Thirdly, original shtat No.010/487 sep.MCycleBn is not yet available, what can I offer you - juxtaposition
Motorcycle company of MCycle Rgt Shtat No.010-23 of 09.VI.1940.jpg
, the original is here:http://rkka.ru/org/btmv/010-23.xls and search for data in reporting documents, such as
Report of combat composition 64 sep.MCycleBn February 3, 1944.jpg
link:https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=454996901 You're still asking about the 50-mm mortars, but why would they, when the for Soviet Motorcycles troops did the special modifications of the motorcycle (exactly for sidecars) for 82-mm mortars. AHF limiting me in quantity of images to post, I would to put a photos here of these motorbikes, but You can find similar on the Internet. Thank you very much for the materials used to - http://sturmpanzer.com, http://rkka.ru and https://pamyat-naroda.ru!

Best regards
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Achtung Minen
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Re: Soviet Motorcycle Units

Post by Achtung Minen » 01 Sep 2019 19:39

Nakhodchanin, thank you for that, very interesting. I didn't realize that the Panzer Begleit Companies were organized that way—how strange! It seems to be basically an infantry platoon with a heavy platoon in the same formation.

As for the images of the Soviet organizations, I take it that you are comparing Shtat 010/23 (the first image) with what appears to be organization of the 64th Separate Motorcycle Battalion. Do you happen to know if the 64th was organized according to Shtat 010/487? It is notable that the 64th Battalion breakdown does not show a 50mm mortar (in comparison to the earlier 010/23 organization, which was probably no longer in existence by 1944).

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Nakhodchanin
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Re: Soviet Motorcycle Units

Post by Nakhodchanin » 01 Sep 2019 22:12

Hello again! At first, about Bgl.Kp.Pz.Div. - this unit have "infantry" number of KStN, and I specifically made reference to site of Dear Christoph Awender, in section"Infanterieeinheiten". I offered you this juxtaposition as an example that the structure of the motorcycle company could well correspond between Shtat No.010/23 and Shtat No.010/487. There is such a wonderful site as tankfront.ru (one minus-it not English), follow this link - http://tankfront.ru/ussr/omtsb/omtsb064.html there states that, 64th sep.MCycleBn initially formed on Shtat No.010/353 (in this topic Dear Gary Kennedy in this post provided data on the combat composition and strength viewtopic.php?p=2178345#p2178345). In the autumn of 1943 (during the General reorganization of recon units in Soviet Armoured and Mechanized Troops - new Shtat No.010/487), 64th was staffed due to 45th sep.Armored car Battalion, number of Shtat No.010/487 site tankfront.ru not mentioned. On basis to information on these both TO&E, Shtat No.010/487 noticeably "heavier" than Shtat No.010/353, and 50-mm mortars could not stay in it (new), even if they were in the previous one (old). The wildest guess is that 50-mm mortars (2-inch british) were mounted (or OVE) on Lend-Lease's Universal/Bren Carrier, but then these "foreign mortars" would "come out" as artillery equipment in reporting documents of combat composition, as this happened I have with similar weapons on American (2-inch mortar M3 on M4A2 https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=452084672) and British (50.8 mm Bombthrower Mk.IA on MkIII"Valentine" Mk I-VII https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=262183265) tanks. The Soviet reporting documents can give an answer, for example, how magical it would be if the author added a column to this document on 64th MCBn that should have on Shtat for each sub-unit :roll: ! And you can not say with 100% certainty that this can not be, one thing remains - To Research :milsmile: ! By the way, on the 1st page of this topic Dear Art posted photos of those most modified motorcycles for 82-mm mortars viewtopic.php?p=2146370#p2146370.

Best regards

raymos
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Re: Soviet Motorcycle Units

Post by raymos » 29 Mar 2020 21:46

Art wrote:
03 Jul 2018 12:55
Unit structure and weapons allocations:

Late-war motorcycle battalions (Shtat 010/487) included:
- HQ and HQ platoon (radio section and a motorcycle section)
- two motorcycle companies (each with 9 light machine guns, 2 82-mm mortars)
- tank company (10 tanks)
- armored carrier company (two scout car platoons and and armored car platoon, total 11 M3 scout car and 5 BA-64 armored cars)
- anti-tank battery (4 57-mm guns, frequently replaced with SU-57 SP guns)
- service platoon with maintenance and transport sections
- supply section

47 officers, 168 sergeants, 236 privates, 451 men total
10 tanks (T-34 or Shermans or Valentines)
11 M3 scout cars
5 BA-64 armored cars
18 light machine guns
4 82-mm mortars
4 57-mm guns
207 machine pistols
82 rifles
5 radios (excluding those installed on tanks and scout cars)
56 motorcycles with sidecars
55 motorcycles solo
5 jeeps or Dodges 3/4 tons for AT battery
17 trucks
4 special purpose vehicles (workshops, ambulance etc)

I don't suppose you have any detail about lower level formations like companies, or even platoons?

I'm curious about the motorcycle companies, and the personnel of the armored carrier company (the vehicles seem kind of obvious).

Regards,
Ray

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Re: Soviet Motorcycle Units

Post by Art » 31 Mar 2020 09:56

There was an organizational diagram in the Establishment Album No.50 (IIRC), but I can't access it right now. Anyway, I haven't seen a full organizational table.

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