Disposition of Poles in Red Army at end of War

Discussions on all aspects of the USSR, from the Russian Civil War till the end of the Great Patriotic War and the war against Japan. Hosted by Art.
User avatar
Yuri
Member
Posts: 1969
Joined: 01 Jun 2006, 12:24
Location: Russia

Re: Disposition of Poles in Red Army at end of War

#31

Post by Yuri » 19 Oct 2021, 23:30

Biber wrote:
25 Sep 2021, 17:55
Korets was an eastern Volhynian town on the old Polish-Soviet border. Volhynia had long been in the middle of the tug of war between the Poles and the Russians, then the Poles and the Soviets then the Germans and the Soviets, and finally it all became a killing ground for the Germans and the Ukrainians - remember that other genocide? So, as I understand it (please correct me), the area was a mix of Polish and Ukrainian (Russian) ethnic elements.
Both in Soviet and post-Soviet times I have been to Volhynia many times, including Korets.
You forgot to mention the Turkish factor. By the way, this old song ("Two brothers came from the Turkish front") reflects the complexity of the military-political situation in those areas in the Middle Ages. I found variants with Polish and Turkish subtitles.
With English, alas, unfortunately I did not find it.

1. Turkish
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFX0mqSTyFE

2. Polish
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=do8CsDmJEX4

Biber
Member
Posts: 616
Joined: 31 Jan 2007, 23:56
Location: Cleveland, Ohio

Re: Disposition of Poles in Red Army at end of War

#32

Post by Biber » 20 Oct 2021, 02:23

Yuri wrote:
19 Oct 2021, 23:30

Both in Soviet and post-Soviet times I have been to Volhynia many times, including Korets.
You forgot to mention the Turkish factor. By the way, this old song ("Two brothers came from the Turkish front") reflects the complexity of the military-political situation in those areas in the Middle Ages.
That's interesting. I didn't know that. On a related topic, during the early '40s, if someone in Volhynia referred to "the Czech colonies," where would that be? Czechs were in many places but would that mean anything in particular?


User avatar
Yuri
Member
Posts: 1969
Joined: 01 Jun 2006, 12:24
Location: Russia

Re: Disposition of Poles in Red Army at end of War

#33

Post by Yuri » 20 Oct 2021, 12:10

Biber wrote:
20 Oct 2021, 02:23
Yuri wrote:
19 Oct 2021, 23:30

Both in Soviet and post-Soviet times I have been to Volhynia many times, including Korets.
You forgot to mention the Turkish factor. By the way, this old song ("Two brothers came from the Turkish front") reflects the complexity of the military-political situation in those areas in the Middle Ages.
That's interesting. I didn't know that. On a related topic, during the early '40s, if someone in Volhynia referred to "the Czech colonies," where would that be? Czechs were in many places but would that mean anything in particular?
Yes, there were such Czech colonies.
The most famous (at least for me) Czech colony in Volyn is the Czech Malin, located between Rovno and Lutsk, now it's Malin.
In 1940, the collective farm was created in this way.
In June 1943, the Germans shot most of the Czechs from this village, and therefore, after the war, the Czech Malin received the unofficial name "Volyn Lidice".
After the war, one of the villages in the Czech Republic was renamed Novy Malin (in the north of the Olomouc region, near town Shumperk).
I served in the 210th motorized rifle regiment, which was located in Rokitnitsa-in-Orlitsky horach, and Shumperk was a tank regiment of our 48th motorized rifle division. We very often went to the landfill in Libava and passed Novy Malin on the way.
The Volyn Czechs became the source of the formation of a separate Czechoslovak battalion (in 1941-42 it was formed together with Anders' army in Buzuluk in the Orenburg region in the Southern Urals, that is, in my small homeland), then the 1st separate Czechoslovak brigade and the 1st separate Czechoslovak corps. General Ludvig Svoboda writes about this, in particular (during my service in Soviet Army Gen. Ludvig Svoboda was the President of Czechoslovakia). One of the brigades of this corps received the name of the Czech Malin.
After the war, the surviving Czechs from Volyn Malin had the opportunity to move to Novy Malin at will. They enjoyed certain privileges, for example, to cross the Soviet-Czechoslovak border without a visa in a private car and travel through Soviet territory to their former places of residence or visit their relatives.
But I know about this only from the words of these Czechs, I have not conducted documentary research, therefore, I cannot say for sure.

Biber
Member
Posts: 616
Joined: 31 Jan 2007, 23:56
Location: Cleveland, Ohio

Re: Disposition of Poles in Red Army at end of War

#34

Post by Biber » 22 Oct 2021, 00:45

WHAT LUCK!!

Just yesterday stumbled across an interview with a 94 year old holocaust survivor from Korets. Long story short, she knew Gildenman and his family and has stories to tell. We'll be doing a zoom call with her next week!

User avatar
Yuri
Member
Posts: 1969
Joined: 01 Jun 2006, 12:24
Location: Russia

Re: Disposition of Poles in Red Army at end of War

#35

Post by Yuri » 22 Oct 2021, 11:15

The Kovpak's way from the Bryansk forests to Mukhoedy (on the instructions of Marshal Voroshilov).
Korobov_Malaya Zemlya(Small Earth)_Kovpak(Way_From_Bryansk_To_Mukhoedy)_.jpg
As can be seen, the Kovpak's detachment passed the Korets district on February 26-28, 1943.
This seems to be the most likely date of the meeting.

User avatar
Yuri
Member
Posts: 1969
Joined: 01 Jun 2006, 12:24
Location: Russia

Re: Disposition of Poles in Red Army at end of War

#36

Post by Yuri » 22 Oct 2021, 13:00

With a probability close to 100%, these are the Russian and Ukrainian guys who come across the Jew Gildenmann at the end of February 1943.
A damn dozen of the Kovpak squad1-1(640).jpg
A damn dozen of the Kovpak squad1-2(640).jpg
A damn dozen of the Kovpak squad2(1020).jpg

Biber
Member
Posts: 616
Joined: 31 Jan 2007, 23:56
Location: Cleveland, Ohio

Re: Disposition of Poles in Red Army at end of War

#37

Post by Biber » 22 Oct 2021, 14:20

My understanding of Gildenman's timeline and itinerary is that after escaping the final liquidation of the Korets Ghetto in late September '42, he traveled northward via Ustye, Ushakove, Varonovka, Klesov, Viezhitsy, Yalna, then on to Polesie and to winter on an island in the Pripet Marshes. He encounters Saburov scouts near Ozyeri about mid January '43, and is taken in under their command. Then down to Zhytomir region. He may have come under Kovpak's aegis at some point, but I don't know. The map you show is about two months later than Gildenman's timeline.

User avatar
Yuri
Member
Posts: 1969
Joined: 01 Jun 2006, 12:24
Location: Russia

Re: Disposition of Poles in Red Army at end of War

#38

Post by Yuri » 22 Oct 2021, 16:45

Biber wrote:
22 Oct 2021, 14:20
My understanding of Gildenman's timeline and itinerary is that after escaping the final liquidation of the Korets Ghetto in late September '42, he traveled northward via Ustye, Ushakove, Varonovka, Klesov, Viezhitsy, Yalna, then on to Polesie and to winter on an island in the Pripet Marshes. He encounters Saburov scouts near Ozyeri about mid January '43, and is taken in under their command. Then down to Zhytomir region. He may have come under Kovpak's aegis at some point, but I don't know. The map you show is about two months later than Gildenman's timeline.
For personal reasons, I know Klesov, this locality is located between Sarny and Olevsk. The rest (Ustye, Ushakove, Varonovka, Viezhitsy, Yalna) are unknown to me.

Ustye (Ust'e) is often found, for example, the river flowing through Rovno is called Ustye (Ust'e).

Ozyeri/Ozer'e (The lake) is probably Vilikie Ozera (the Great Lakes) located north of Klesov.

I showed the route of the second "great campaign to Volhynia". The first campaign took place in October-December 1942 and was limited to the latitude of Sarna, below that is, they did not descend to the south.

From what you have reported, it follows that Goldenman met the partisans either at the very end of "the first campaign" or at the very beginning of "the second campaign".
In any case, Goldenman's story is plausible.


By the way, at the time when Goldenman was in Klesov, there were no Germans in Sarny, there was a regiment of Slovaks there.

The detachments of Saburov and Kovpak acted together.

Post Reply

Return to “The Soviet Union at War 1917-1945”