Soviet reconnaissance planes over Germany ?

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Starinov
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Soviet reconnaissance planes over Germany ?

Post by Starinov » 29 Oct 2002 19:02

Does anybody know if, prior to June 22nd 1941, any soviet reconnaissance planes flew over german-controlled former polish territory. It is known that over 300 german reconnaissance missions took place over USSR before Barbarossa. How many planes flew over the other side?

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Roberto
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Re: Soviet reconnaissance planes over Germany ?

Post by Roberto » 29 Oct 2002 21:07

Starinov wrote:Does anybody know if, prior to June 22nd 1941, any soviet reconnaissance planes flew over german-controlled former polish territory. It is known that over 300 german reconnaissance missions took place over USSR before Barbarossa. How many planes flew over the other side?


I don't know, but my guess is that Stalin was too wary of "provoking" Adolf to allow such a thing.

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Post by Mike R » 29 Oct 2002 22:15

My guess would be 0. I have the same impression as Roberto, Stalin was too worried about provoking the Germans. From reading the book "900 Days", i think he might have even expressely forbid recon flights?

regards,
-Mike

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Post by Caldric » 29 Oct 2002 22:28

2ndPanzerEnthusiast wrote:My guess would be 0. I have the same impression as Roberto, Stalin was too worried about provoking the Germans. From reading the book "900 Days", i think he might have even expressely forbid recon flights?

regards,
-Mike


He forbade any talk of Germany invading the USSR because he thought it was just provocation by enemies of the state to start a conflict between Germany and the USSR. So I would think recon flights would be forbidden. All of this really points to the fact that the USSR had no intentions of invading Western Europe.

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Post by Starinov » 30 Oct 2002 14:31

In "the Deadly Embrace" written by Anthony Read and David Fisher, on page 578, you can read this sentence:

Jodl drew up a list of "deliberate provocations" by Soviet aircraft over German territory, claiming eight incidents on 17 April alone.

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Post by Roberto » 30 Oct 2002 15:10

Starinov wrote:In "the Deadly Embrace" written by Anthony Read and David Fisher, on page 578, you can read this sentence:

Jodl drew up a list of "deliberate provocations" by Soviet aircraft over German territory, claiming eight incidents on 17 April alone.


The decision to attack the Soviet Union having been taken long before, Jodl seems to have been gathering pretexts for the upcoming aggression, however far-fetched.

Nothing unusual in Nazi policies. Before the attack on Poland, for instance, Hitler had told his generals the following on 22 August 1939:

Ich werde propagandistischen Anlass zur Auslösung des Krieges geben, gleichgültig, ob glaubhaft. Der Sieger wird später nicht danach gefragt, ob er die Wahrheit gesagt hat oder nicht. Bei Beginn und Führung des Krieges kommt es nicht auf das Recht an, sondern auf den Sieg.


Source of quote: Ernst Klee / Willi Dressen, "Gott mit uns”: Der deutsche Vernichtungskrieg im Osten there is yet another summary of Hitler's statements at the afternoon meeting on the Obersalzberg on 22.8.1939. The document referred to is Nuernberg Document 1014-PS, IMT, Volume XXVI.

My translation:

I shall provide for a propagandistic reason to unleash the war, regardless of whether it is credible or not. The victor is not asked at a later stage whether he told the truth or not. In beginning and conducting a war, what matters is not right but victory.

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Post by Roberto » 30 Oct 2002 16:01

2ndPanzerEnthusiast wrote:My guess would be 0. I have the same impression as Roberto, Stalin was too worried about provoking the Germans. From reading the book "900 Days", i think he might have even expressely forbid recon flights?

regards,
-Mike


I had another look at the book and found nothing about a prohibition against Soviet reconnaissance flights, but nothing about such flights having taken place either. There's a lot about German reconnaissance flights, however, together with statements about Soviet reactions thereto such as the following:

Thus it went to the end, Stalin trying in the final hours to stave off attack by ordering his armed forces not to fire at German planes, not to approach the frontiers, not to make any move which might provoke German action.
He held his conviction so stubbornly that (as Krushchev was to point out) when the firing started on the morning of June 22, Moscow still ordered the Soviet forces not to return it. Even then Stalin sought to convince himself that he was only contending with a provocation on the part of "several undisciplined portions of the German Army."


Source of quote: Harrison E. Salisbury, The 900 Days, 1970 Avon Books, New York, page 102.

A prohibition to approach the frontiers, of course, may be held to also include a prohibition to fly across the frontiers.

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Re: Soviet reconnaissance planes over Germany ?

Post by varjag » 02 Nov 2002 12:32

Starinov wrote:Does anybody know if, prior to June 22nd 1941, any soviet reconnaissance planes flew over german-controlled former polish territory. It is known that over 300 german reconnaissance missions took place over USSR before Barbarossa. How many planes flew over the other side?
Starinov - I'm sort of reverting the subject but; you claim 'it is known' that the LW flew over 300 recce missions over the USSR before Barbarossa. These missions were flown by and large by a German LW unit known as 'Kommando Rowehl'. What is your source for '300 missions'? And what time span for these 300 flights? Were any of the German a/c shot down or forced to land in Russia?

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