Victories and losses of Soviet submarines during WWII

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BIGpanzer
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Victories and losses of Soviet submarines during WWII

Post by BIGpanzer » 13 Mar 2007 01:11

Use of Soviet submarines during WWII [according to statistics from 2004]

Soviet submarines sank by torpedos and artillery fire:
I. Pacific Ocean fleet - 4 enemy ships [Japanese] were sank by submarines in 1945: 2 small steamers, 1 cable wessel and 1 seine-netter.
5 Soviet submarines were lost in Pacific during WWII.

II. North fleet - 35 enemy ships [German] were sank in 1941-1944: 20 transports, 7 anti-submarine boats, 5 auxiliary patrol ships, 1 submarine, 1 mine-sweeper, 1 auxiliary ship. In addition 4 transports [19390 brt] were seriously damaged. The most successful year - 1943 [15 ships were sank].
23 Soviet submarines were lost in Arctic during WWII. The worsest year - also 1943 [10 losses].

III. Black Sea fleet - 45 ships [18 German, 2 Italian, 6 Romanian, 3 Bulgarian, 16 neutral Turkish] were sank in 1941-1944: 43 transports + tankers + anding barges. The most successful year - 1943 [17 ships were sank].
28 Soviet submarines wele lost in Black Sea during WWII. The worsest year - 1942 [13 submarines were lost].

IV. Baltic Sea fleet - 48 ships [17 German, 7 Finnish, 1 Danish, 2 Dutch, 11 Norwegian, 10 neutral Swedish] were sank in 1941-1945: 1 submarine, 1 mine-sweeper, 1 patrol ship, 1 training ship, 1 depot ship, 2 tankers, 1 tug, 1 barge, 37 transports, 2 seine-netters. The most successful year - 1942 [22 ships were sank]
45 Soviet submarines wele lost in Baltic during WWII. The worsest year - 1941 [27 submarines were lost].

The success of Soviet submarines was mediocre - USSR used 277 submarines during WWII [165 submarines were in 1939 - the largest world's submarine fleet]. They sank [by torpedos, artillery fire, mines] 191 ships during Winter war, wars with Germany and Japan in all seas - 4 submarines, 3 small destroyers, 11 patrol ships, 9 patrol boats, 2 mine-layers, 6 mine-sweepers, 9 landing barges, 6 military tankers, 6 military transports, 3 depot ships, 2 hospital ship, 1 training ship, 1 cable wessel, 6 tugs, 6 barges, 9 trawler ships, 1 small fishing ship, 86 transports, 2 tankers, 18 motor-sailing ships [172.785 brt total]. This data includes 5 ships were sank during Winter War [2 German, 1 Finnish, 1 Swedish, 1 Estonian].

Soviets achieved rate 1.89 [191 sank ships per 101 lost submarines]. British submarines achieved the ratio 9.29 [632 sank ships per 68 lost submarines], USN submarines achived fantastic ratio 24.15 as they performed in much more favourable conditions in comparison with other navies [1280 sank ships per 53 lost submarines].
Axis forces - Italian submarines had the ratio 1.1; Germans had the ratio 2.69 [2973 sank ships(!) per 1060 lost submarines including sank under capitulation]; Japanese - 1.73.

Regards, BP

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Post by ChristopherPerrien » 13 Mar 2007 07:41

USN submarines achived fantastic ratio 24.15 as they performed in much more favourable conditions in comparison with other navies [1280 sank ships per 53 lost submarines].


Water has favoritism? 8-) :lol: :wink:

While US submarines have the best kill/loss ratio by far of any sub force in WWII, it should be noted that the US sub force took the highest losses of any branch of US service in WWII. 1/4 of those guys never came home. They earned this honor with blood.
RIP "Mush" Morton and alot of other heros.

Read "Wahoo" by Richard O'Kane , MOH/POW/USN

Chris

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Post by BIGpanzer » 13 Mar 2007 11:17

Water has favoritism?

Nonsense.
In reality that were the theatre of operations and corresponding tactics [try to use Pacific tactics in small Baltic Sea, for example :lol: ]; using of excellent equipment [ex. radars since 1942 - a very important reason]; organization and tactical mistakes and not very effective anti-submarine defense of Japanese; also fast production of submarines which helped to press Japanese fleet more and more. This is obvious that US submarines fought im much more favourable tactic and technical conditions than German or Soviet submarines [and a lot of authors mention this], which of course, doesn't minimize US submarine crew efforts to achieve victory and excellent final result [Japanese transport fleet was almost destroyed completelly - from 6.000.000 brt to 1.800.000 brt].

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Re: Victories and losses of Soviet submarines during WWII

Post by Juha Tompuri » 13 Mar 2007 11:36

BIGpanzer wrote: 5 ships were sank during Winter War [2 German, 1 Finnish, 1 Swedish, 1 Estonian].
With the cost of one sub (S-2) kill/loss ratio during Winter War: 5.0[/quote]

ChristopherPerrien wrote:While US submarines have the best kill/loss ratio by far of any sub force in WWII
The five Submarines of Finnish Navy managed to sink (torpedoes, mines and ramming) IIRC 4 Soviet subs and a merchant ship.
Without own losses.

Regards, Juha

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Post by BIGpanzer » 13 Mar 2007 13:21

Juha, the best post during the last days! :wink:

As for Soviet submarine ratio during Winter war - it was so insignificant in comparison with WWII so I didn't mention this.
S-2 [captain-lieutenant I.A. Sokolov] exploded on Finnish mine in Gulf of Bothnia 03.01.1940. It was found by Swedish divers in 1999.

As for Finnish submarines - sorry :wink: , their amount was so insignificant in comparison with main powers [USA, UK, USSR, Germany, Japan, Italy], so I didn't mention them also [the thread is about Soviet submarines not world's and ratios were given just for comparison]. It is possible to mention Dutch, French, Danish, Polish, etc. submarines also in this case.
Juha wrote:
The five Submarines of Finnish Navy managed to sink (torpedoes, mines and ramming) IIRC 4 Soviet subs and a merchant ship.

Shame on you! :) It seems to be that I know Finnish history better than you indeed :P
Finnish submarines sank 3 Soviet submarines [S-7 was torpedoed by "Vesihiisi" 21.10.1942 near Aland Islands, ShCh-305 was ramed/collided by "Vetehinen" 05.11.1942 near Aland Islands, ShCh-301 exploded on mine 28.08.1941 near Yuminda cape] and 2 Soviet merchant ships [steamer "Vyborg" 3183 brt was shelled by "Vetehinen" and in 3 hours was torpedoed by "Vesikko" near island Gogland 03.07.1941, 1 men was lost; and steamer "Rasma" 3204 brt exploded on mine near island Mohni 05.07.1941, in 3 days the abandoned ship was sank by German bombers and torpedo boats S-26 and S-28].
Also destroyer "Steregushy" and transport "Molotov" exploded on Finnish submarine mines [both were repaired].
PS. Finns claimed that "ShCh-308" was sank by "Iku-Turso" 26.10.1942, in reality [most probably] it was exploded on mine several days before.

Regards, BP

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Post by Juha Tompuri » 13 Mar 2007 16:24

BIGpanzer wrote: It is possible to mention Dutch, French, Danish, Polish, etc. submarines also in this case.
Yes, I wonder what were their kill/loss ratios

BP wrote:
Juha wrote wrote:The five Submarines of Finnish Navy managed to sink (torpedoes, mines and ramming) IIRC 4 Soviet subs and a merchant ship.

Shame on you! :) It seems to be that I know Finnish history better than you indeed :P
Finnish submarines sank 3 Soviet submarines [S-7 was torpedoed by "Vesihiisi" 21.10.1942 near Aland Islands, ShCh-305 was ramed/collided by "Vetehinen" 05.11.1942 near Aland Islands, ShCh-301 exploded on mine 28.08.1941 near Yuminda cape] and 2 Soviet merchant ships [steamer "Vyborg" 3183 brt was shelled by "Vetehinen" and in 3 hours was torpedoed by "Vesikko" near island Gogland 03.07.1941, 1 men was lost; and steamer "Rasma" 3204 brt exploded on mine near island Mohni 05.07.1941, in 3 days the abandoned ship was sank by German bombers and torpedo boats S-26 and S-28].
Also destroyer "Steregushy" and transport "Molotov" exploded on Finnish submarine mines [both were repaired].
Well...
-Correct about Vesihiisi and S-7
- Nearly correct about Vetehinen and ShCh-305 (sunken by ramming [few canon shots also fired])
-About ShCh-301 (sunken by mine laid by Vesihiisi), my sources give the date of 27th Aug-41
-About Vyborg my sources give a bit bigger displacement
-About Rasma,Steregustshi and Vjatsheslav Molotov I didn't wrote as they weren't actually sunken by Finnish subs.(I could also in that case written about ex-Estonian s/s Marija which was damaged by a Finnish sub laid mine)

BP wrote:PS. Finns claimed that "ShCh-308" was sank by "Iku-Turso" 26.10.1942, in reality [most probably] it was exploded on mine several days before.
In reality Finns never (AFAIK) have claimed sinking the ShCh-308 by sub. That Soviet sub went down 10th(?) Oct-42 probably after hitting a mine at Finnish Gulf.
ShCh-320 was torpedoed by Finish sub Iku-Turso 27th Oct, 0001 hours near Marhällan.

Regards, Juha

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Re: Victories and losses of Soviet submarines during WWII

Post by ChristopherPerrien » 13 Mar 2007 17:06

Juha Tompuri wrote:
ChristopherPerrien wrote:t;]While US submarines have the best kill/loss ratio by far of any sub force in WWII
The five Submarines of Finnish Navy managed to sink (torpedoes, mines and ramming) IIRC 4 Soviet subs and a merchant ship.
Without own losses.

Regards, Juha
I stand corrected :roll: , sort of. :) The question is, "Is 5 subs a "force" or a "flotilla" "? :wink:

And you can't make a ratio with a zero on one side :D .

Chris

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Post by BIGpanzer » 13 Mar 2007 17:47

To Juha!
I will send you the info about ratios of submarines of other navies by PM, OK? [don't like to open the new thread and this thread is about Soviet submarines].

Juha wrote:
About ShCh-301 (sunken by mine laid by Vesihiisi), my sources give the date of 27th Aug-41

My source gives the date 28.08.1941 - the differences in our data is very insignificant this case. But 28.08.1941 [night time] seems correct. Submarine was heavily damaged [that could happen in the late evening 27.10. indeed] and sank soon. Survivors were rescued by depot ship "Veronia" which was damaged by German aviation and exploded on mine [sank] the same day [28.08.1941]

Juha wrote:
Nearly correct about Vetehinen and ShCh-305 (sunken by ramming [few canon shots also fired])

About ramming - correct. My best sources give the following info: ShCh-305 found "Vesihiisi" two times between 25.06-05.07.1942, 28.06. ShCh-305 attacked Finnish submarine with torpedo [unsuccesful], 30.06. Finnish submarine attacked ShCh-305 with torpedo [unsuccessful also]. 05.11.1942 ShCh-305 during battery charging was unsuccessfully attacked by "Vetehinen" [Finnish captain missed two torpedos from the very close distance of 2 cables, then he rammed Soviet submarine].
Juha wrote:
ShCh-320 was torpedoed by Finish sub Iku-Turso 27th Oct, 0001 hours near Marhällan.

Most probably [99%] - no. Modern Russian sources don't support this [interesting, that old Soviets did - the same info as yours from 1957 year source about Iku-Turso!]. ShCh-320 exploded on mine around 03.10.1942 north-west to island Vaindlo [Soundman of ShCh-303 nearby heard the explosives on mine field and submarine hull crash 03.10 - that could be only ShCh-320 in that region]. Additional proof - the last radio message from ShCh-320 dated 01.10.1942 only [base couldn't contact with it 07, 08 and 10.10]. I strongly believe that the info above is correct, and Finns mistaked here for some reasons.

Juha wrote:
About Vyborg my sources give a bit bigger displacement

My source about "Vyborg" is very correct [as I paid a lot of time for my thread about transport ships of USSR during WWII] but there are differ kind of displacement [brt, t, full, empty, etc.]. I don't know which kind of displacement uses your source. The differences in our data seems to be insignificant again.

Juha wrote:
About Rasma,Steregustshi and Vjatsheslav Molotov I didn't wrote as they weren't actually sunken by Finnish subs

"Steregushchy" [or "Steregushchi"], "Vjacheslav Molotov".........All three mentioned ship were exploded on sub mines, but destroyer "Steregushchy" [lightly damaged as mine exploded in sweeping paravane 11.07.1941] and turboelectric hospital ship "Vjacheslav Molotov" [exploded off of Gogland 11.07.1941 because civil captain didn't understand the order from convoy commander how to release mine from paravane, mine exploded and ship was heavily damaged; towed by "Steregushchy" to Kronshtadt].
As you didn't mention this at first I decided to do this for you :wink:

Juha wrote:
In reality Finns never (AFAIK) have claimed sinking the ShCh-308 by sub. That Soviet sub went down 10th(?) Oct-42 probably after hitting a mine at Finnish Gulf.

That make several Russian sources at least [that Finnish submarine sank ShCh-308]. The submarine had last radio communication with the base on 20.10.1942 [not in 10th!], later it was disappeared [exploded on mine most probably].
Last edited by BIGpanzer on 14 Mar 2007 23:14, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Victories and losses of Soviet submarines during WWII

Post by Juha Tompuri » 13 Mar 2007 19:43

ChristopherPerrien wrote: The question is, "Is 5 subs a "force" or a "flotilla" "? :wink:

And you can't make a ratio with a zero on one side :D .

Chris
:)
Regards, Juha

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Post by BIGpanzer » 13 Mar 2007 19:55

When I checked the info about submarines mentioned above [despite the fact that I have a very good literature sources about this subject] I found one Russian forum about WWII submarines - there was a short info about Finnish submarines [very correct] also, and the motto of that chapter say: "Finnish submariners are the most Finnish in the world" :lol: [Russians likes to friendly joke with Finns indeed]

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Post by Juha Tompuri » 13 Mar 2007 20:13

BIGpanzer wrote:
Juha wrote:
ShCh-320 was torpedoed by Finish sub Iku-Turso 27th Oct, 0001 hours near Marhällan.

Most probably [99%] - no. Modern Russian sources don't support this [interesting, that old Soviets did - the same info as yours from 1957 year source about Iku-Turso!]. ShCh-320 exploded on mine around 03.10.1941 north-west to island Vaindlo
My sources are newer than you mentioned, and based on the true events.

BP wrote:[Soundman of ShCh-303 nearby heard the explosives on mine field and submarine hull crash 03.10 - that could be only ShCh-320 in that region]. Additional proof - the last redio message from ShCh-320 dated 01.10.1941 only [base couldn't contact with it 07, 08 and 10.10]. I strongly believe that the info above is correct, and Finns mistaked here for some reasons.
You base your claim at Ivan Travkin crew reports?
viewtopic.php?t=8005&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight

BP wrote:
Juha wrote:About Vyborg my sources give a bit bigger displacement

My source about "Vyborg" is very correct [as I paid a lot of time for my thread about transport ships of USSR during WWII]
I've learnt here to be critical even to the "very correct sources"
BP wrote: I don't know which kind of displacement uses your source.
4100brt

Regards, Juha

Some Soviet subs today
S-7 http://www.abc.se/~pa/uwa/s7.htm
S-8 http://compunews.com/s13/s8.htm
D-2 http://www.rc-submarines.com/id1265.htm


About sinking of Soviet submarines: http://users.tkk.fi/~jaromaa/Navygaller ... s.htm#cont

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Post by BIGpanzer » 13 Mar 2007 20:57

As for ShCh-320 - you mistake! :?
Juha wrote:
My sources are newer than you mentioned

My date 2005 and are very well researched without doubts. But despite this I will check your info ones more tonight.

Juha wrote:
You base your claim at Ivan Travkin crew reports?

No, never saw them before. Thanks for the link.
The additional important proof - communication with the base only 01.10.

Juha wrote:
I've learnt here to be critical even to the "very correct sources"

This is good, my respect :wink: In my case this will be not so easy 8-)
If I mention the source as very correct that means that I strongly believe to this because of proofs/amount of checked info were given in this research and its value by other historians. Additional info is possible, but disproofs - almost impossible and represent the very significant probability of wasting time :? It is better to agree with opponent knowing that my info is correct :lol: [as the main aim is to know correct info and not to convince someone here 8-) ].

Juha wrote:
4100brt

The majority of sources give 3183 brt, I saw 4050 brt in two sources only.

Thanks for the links, interesting.
BP

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Post by Rodan Lewarx » 14 Mar 2007 08:47

My sources gives the next data.
As for ShCh-301 it was exploded on mine 28.08.41 at 21:15.
As for ShCh-320. The last contact with submarine was at night 01.10.41 so it can't be sunk 27.09.41.

Regards

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Post by Juha Tompuri » 14 Mar 2007 11:42

BIGpanzer wrote:
Juha wrote:ShCh-320 was torpedoed by Finish sub Iku-Turso 27th Oct, 0001 hours near Marhällan.

Most probably [99%] - no. Modern Russian sources don't support this [interesting, that old Soviets did - the same info as yours from 1957 year source about Iku-Turso!]. ShCh-320 exploded on mine around 03.10.1941 north-west to island Vaindlo [Soundman of ShCh-303 nearby heard the explosives on mine field and submarine hull crash 03.10 - that could be only ShCh-320 in that region]. Additional proof - the last redio message from ShCh-320 dated 01.10.1941 only [base couldn't contact with it 07, 08 and 10.10]. I strongly believe that the info above is correct, and Finns mistaked here for some reasons.
.
Rodan Lewarx wrote:My sources gives the next data...
...As for ShCh-320. The last contact with submarine was at night 01.10.41 so it can't be sunk 27.09.41.
Do the Soviet sources really date the ShCh -320 lost in 1941?

Regards, Юха

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Post by Laurence Strong » 14 Mar 2007 13:44

Could someone tell me what type and capabilities did the Red Banner Fleet have on the Pacific coast in regards to submarines in the 1930-1945 era?

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