Victories and losses of Soviet submarines during WWII

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Juha Tompuri
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Post by Juha Tompuri » 26 Mar 2007 22:33

BIGpanzer wrote:
Juha wrote:The book doesn't clearly mention which week he ment 14th-21th or 16th-23th.

See the timetable above, no possibility for week, just for 4 days.
Four days from the week at bottom of the sea, yes.

BP wrote: you still don't answer on my questions about correct transliterations of Swedish names :?
Well, from your post I thought you ment the other JT, the native speaker.
I'm not that good in swedish language. Perhaps Esa can also help?

BP wrote:The Shepelevsky lighthouse has exact coordinates as you can imagine.
As I can imagine all places have exact cordinates.

Juha wrote:
BP wrote:1) hard to believe that German mine-sweepers operated 4 days quite close to Kronshtadt so free

...makes me wonder about your knowledge about the locations of the fronlines at that area.
...as the Tiger/Sauna minefield was more close to the Finish/German held area than Kronstadt.

BP wrote: http://militera.lib.ru/h/platonov_av/s01.jpg [from the very famous and extremelly detailed book "Tragedies of the Gulf of Finland" by naval historian Platonov, 2005]
Interesting maps and drawings there, some mistakes (if I understood the markings right) at the map section (at least)

BP wrote:probably, the best book about military operations in Gulf of Finland in 1941-beg1942.
Have you read any Finnish books dealing the same issue?

BP wrote:
Juha wrote:Yes, that's the explanation of the Soviet sub Captain about what happened.

This doesn't mean that there were no anti-submarine vessels in the area in reality.
To became reality, it needs some facts for support.

BP wrote:
Juha wrote:S/S Bengt Sture (took 22 years from USSR to admit the sinking) and S/S Hansa (never admitted)

About "Bengt Sture" - how can you explain that Swedes sent a request about crewmembers in 1955, and Soviet government replied and started the investigation about fates of crewmembers [see above]? 1955-1942 = 13 years :wink: You mean the year 1964 as Soviet leader Khrushev came to Sweden that time [and he was asked about fates of sailors ones more, but Khrushev didn't give any additional info in comparison with reply from 1955].
AFAIK 1964 was the first time the sinking was officialy admitted.

BP wrote:As for "Hansa" - please, remind me which submarine sank it,

A reminder: http://hem.passagen.se/staste/pang.html ( L-21)
Also: http://compunews.com/s13/hansa.htm
http://hem.passagen.se/staste/b.html

Thanks for the Soviet info about the Kassari case.
The Kassari survivors remember the sinking a bit different. The ship was attacked without warning.
IIRC it took long for USSR to admit that it was an Estonian ship.

BP wrote:No any mentions about fire against life-boat, no any mentions about losses of sailors in my databases and literature sources
According to P-O Ekman, S-13 unsuccesfully shelled one of the two lifeboats. No victims.

Regards, Juha

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Juha Tompuri
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Post by Juha Tompuri » 26 Mar 2007 22:59

BIGpanzer wrote:the reason of loss of M-95 could be not Finnish aircraft but also sea mine [then Finnish aircraft bombed oil spot from exploded submarine]
Actually it was the other way.
Accordng to Suomen Ilmavoimien Historia vol.24, a 200kg depth charge (set to explode at 20m) was dropped 20m behind the sub periscope. Then came the oil.

BP wrote:M-97 exploded on sea mine 04-11.09.1942 and was detected by Finnish observation posts 04.09.1942
source?

BP wrote: Shch-320 wasn't torpedoed by "Iku-Turso" ["Iku-Turso" unsuccessfully attacked Shch-307], but exploded on mine
There were two subs at the region, of both of Iku-Turso fought, sinking the ShCh-320.
Juha earlier wrote:Also to where the back line of 10th October 1942 at the Russian estimations about the sinking date of the ShCh-320 is based at?
Any answers to that question?



BP wrote:there is a version that Shch-408 was damaged [not sank] by "Ruotsinsalmi" + VMV 6 and sank by mine-layer "Riilahti"
Do you know the source(s) of that version?

Regards, Juha

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BIGpanzer
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Post by BIGpanzer » 27 Mar 2007 00:40

Continuing to press Juha here :wink: :P
But only very small notes this time as I agree with almost all in your previous post.

Juha wrote:
Thanks for the link, even it's not absolutely correct:
tanker Mittelmeer wasn't sunken but damaged.

There are no absolutely correct sources, the link provides all sinking ship names, at least [according to your request :wink: ]. But this source also mentions 2 Soviet Baltic submarines as heavily damaged in 1942 [in reality they were lightly damaged only], so the source is not absolutely correct indeed.
German tanker "Mittelmeer", 6370 brt [850 t of aircraft fuel on board] was heavily damaged in convoy by S-9 [27.09.1942, 14.30, 1 torpedo from 2 cables]. At 15.25 commander of S-9 saw in periscope burning tanker and didn't attack it ones more [believing that tanker would sink soon]. But "Mittelmeer" was towed to Vasa and repaired later.

Juha wrote:
Any facts that support that theory?

As I've mentioned this is just one of the possible versions - that "Hindenburg" [7880 brt] was not exploded on mine installed by L-3, but was torpedoed by Shch-304. There are only indirect facts - 13.11.1942 Finnish mine-layer was attacked by submarine [unsuccessfully], 17.11.1942 "Hindenburg" was exploded [mine, torpedo?] in the same area - and that area should be patrolled by Shch-304. In the same area several small transports were damaged/sank during the torpedo attack of unknown submarine in November 1942. Shch-304 didn't returned back from this mission and didn't sent radiomessages.

Juha wrote about S-8:
Mine hit (triggering something to expode inside) seems most probable.

Yes, most probable in my opinion also. But disputed according to the known location of mines there, surface position of submarine during death and some other details.

Juha wrote:
As Finnish POW later in his carrer, he got a nickname (by his surname) from us - "Kettunen" (A Finnish surname, meaning something like "little fox")

Yes, Lisin is surname from lisa [lisa means fox]. IIRC S-7 was torpedoed by "Vesihiisi" 21.10.1942 [20.43] - 43 or 44 crewmembers were lost, but 4 were captured [they were on bridge during explosion] - captain S. Lisin and sailors V. Subbotin, A. Olenin, V. Kunitsa. They were delivered to Aland Islands and were POWs till the Finnish disengagement in 1944.

Juha wrote:
I'm not that good in swedish language. Perhaps Esa can also help?

I am very bad in Swedish, but you should learn it at school :wink: [or was you a non-achiever that happy times :lol: ]. Yes, if dear Esa will help, that will be very good!

Juha wrote:
As I can imagine all places have exact cordinates.

Except the places of some sinking submarines yet........

Juha wrote:
...as the Tiger/Sauna minefield was more close to the Finish/German held area than Kronstadt.

Yes, but I wrote about bottom position near Shepelovsky lighthouse [4 days stay] and you mentioned German mine-sweepers. Submarine waited the finish of work of Soviet mine-sweepers there.

Juha wrote:
Interesting maps and drawings there, some mistakes (if I understood the markings right) at the map section (at least). Have you read any Finnish books dealing the same issue?

The map for 22.06.-10.07.1941 only IIRC.
I have not read Finnish original books [unfortunately] but I have read a lot of citations from them in German and Russian literature [also saw the maps and drawings from Finnish sources]. For sure there are a lot of very detailed Finnish sources [but not free from mistakes as every source]. I mean that Platonov is a very famous [not only in Russia] and very correct Russian naval historian, so his books are among the best. He pays great attention to huge tables with all possible info, very detailed maps/drawings, description of even small events with exact data [hours:minutes], and extremelly scrupulous technical details about ships [till the pressure in pipe-lines]. I didn't read his new large book "Tragedies of Finnish Gulf", but I've already heard from many enthusiasts that this is the best Russian source about history of evecuation of Tallinn, defense of Hango, landing operations, mine fields, submarine missions, etc. in the Gulf of Finland in 1941-beg1942. By the way, I ordered via online shop his data book [2004] "Soviet submarines of 1941-1945" yesterday especially for our discussions [20 Euro is not a cost to provide friends :) with very detailed info as I expected a lot]. I think in ~2 weeks I'll get it.

Juha wrote:
AFAIK 1964 was the first time the sinking was officialy admitted.

If nobody asked about this, nobody admitted. Khrushev's reply in 1964 was more official, of course, than reply of Soviet investigation commission in 1955 according to Swedish request. IIRC the fates of quite many Soviet citizens, found themselves on Swedish territory during WWII, are also unknown till now.

Juha wrote:
A reminder: http://hem.passagen.se/staste/pang.html ( L-21)

About admission - still no time to make detailed online search, sorry. But as for details of attack: 24.11.1942 [08.00] L-21 attacked single transport 18 miles W of northern part of Gotland - 3 torpedos were fired from 8-9 cables, 2 torpedos hit and sank Swedish small transport "Hansa", 493 brt.

Juha wrote:
Thanks for the Soviet info about the Kassari case.
The Kassari survivors remember the sinking a bit different. The ship was attacked without warning.

Correct Soviet info as it was found during investigation of the accident! The details of attack came from commander of Shch-323 [Ivantsov's report], as Ivantsov tried to hide the details from Soviet naval investigators, http://www.deepstorm.ru [for example] mentions the following - "Kassari" supposedly didn't reply, switched off lights and increased speed. It is hard to say what was in reality - Ivantsov could attack without warning indeed [but I don't think so as the aim of his submarine was to inspect ships in the area], Estonians could not notice request from submarine because of night time, Estonians could lie for Estonian newspapers during Winter war and they noticed request from submarine but didn't want to stop.

Juha wrote:
According to P-O Ekman, S-13 unsuccesfully shelled one of the two lifeboats. No victims.

I didn't find any mentions about this in my sources [which describe the attack in details]. P-O Ekman could be right here or mistaked [as sometimes].

PS. For example, P-O Ekman mentioned [according to Esa]:
And according to the same list, Soviet submarines achived following victories, Ekman lists only Men of War, not mercantships etc etc....
10/8 1941 - German U 479 - S of Utö - Rammed by Lembit.

In reality Lembit never ramed U-479 which was lost 11.1944, but Soviet submarines of Baltic Sea Navy achieved the following victories over enemy warships:
U-144 was torpedoed 10.08.1941 by Shch-307, 6 auxiliary warships were sank in 1944 [including mine-sweeper, submarine depot ship "Seeburg"/Shch-407 and army transport "Zonnewijk"/Shch-310], 3 auxiliary warships in 1945 [incliding 1 patrol ship].

Regards, BP
Last edited by BIGpanzer on 27 Mar 2007 13:00, edited 1 time in total.

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walter leotta
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Post by walter leotta » 27 Mar 2007 08:04

Hy all

On 13.3 BP wrote:
"The success of Soviet submarines was mediocre - USSR used 277 submarines during WWII [165 submarines were in 1939 - the largest world's submarine fleet]. They sank [by torpedos, artillery fire, mines] 191 ships during Winter war.... [172.785 brt total]".

It's not possibile 172.785 brt total for 199 ships, it's too small. In this moment I've in my list 175 ships for 325.111 BRT


In the "fog of war", much fog for soviet subs, i've found 24 victories (merchant navy) in Baltic Sea in 1942

19420204 SC-318 MT Hiddensee ger 643
19420616 SC-317 D Argo fin 2513
19420622 SC-317 D Ada Gorthon sve 2399
19420705 SC-320 D Anna Katrin Fritzen ger 676
19420708 SC-317 D Otto Cords ger 966
19420709 S-007 D Margareta sve 1272
19420710 SC-317 D Hannah sve 1196
19420711 S-007 M Lulea sve 5611
19420730 S-007 D Kathe ger 1599
19420805 S-007 D Pojanlahti fin 682
19420818 L-003 D C.F. Liljevalch sve 5492
19420911 S-013 D Hera fin 1379
19420912 S-013 D Jussi H fin 2325
19420912 SC-309 D Bonden fin 695
19420922 S-013 D Anna W. nl 290
19420925 L-003 M Franz Bohmke ger M 210
19420928 SC-310 D Franz Rudolf ger 1419
19421014 D-2 D Jacobus Fritzen ger 4090
19421026 SC-307 D Betti H. fin 2478
19421026 SC-406 Df Mercator fin 119
19421028 SC-406 D Bengt Sture sve 872
19421101 SC-406 D Agnes fin 2983
19421106 SC-306 D Elbing K ger 467
19421117 L-003 D Hindenburg ger M 7880
19421209 L-003 D Edith Bosselmann ger M 952


If commissioned, someone knows the commissioned's date and final fate of this subs? and fleet?

K-54
L-18
L-25
S-17
S-18
S-21
S-22
S-23
S-35
SC-103
SC-414

Thanks
Walter

Esa K
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Post by Esa K » 27 Mar 2007 08:55

BIGpanzer wrote:As for victories over German submarines in Baltic Sea - Shch-307 torpedoed and sank U-144 10.08.1941 north of Dagö.


Sorry, missed that one, but it´s in the refeered list by P. O. Ekman... It says:
10/8 1941 U 144 - NW of Dagö - Torpedo from SC 307.

Juha Tompuri wrote:I'm not that good in swedish language. Perhaps Esa can also help?


Can make a try, as I assume that it´s just a quest for some translation help, cause otherwise my knowledge on Naval warfare in the Baltic, and everywhere else, is very rudimentary... And, as this is a very, shall we call it massive thread, could you just point out once more where my help is needed?

Best regards

Esa K

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walter leotta
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Post by walter leotta » 27 Mar 2007 09:01

Soviet subs commissioned
and SC-412 not SC-414...
sorry

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Post by Janne » 27 Mar 2007 11:28

BP, it may or may not surprise you, but your memory has holes! You wished to know the Swedish spelling of the lighthouse that had somehow survived a two-way translitteration but come out as "nesbü" and I kindly provided you with the name as well:-)

Anyway, I appear to have neglected your other similar requests, so here they are: Häradskär, Hävringe, Kallbådagrund, Sandsänkan and Simpnäsklubb. (If I missed any, do not hesitate to prod me...)


As for the sinkings of Soviet subs by the Royal Swedish Navy, there were according to Swedish (semi)official history and modern research three possible occasions in 1942: July 12th by "Stockholm", July 21st by "Kaparen" and "Norrköping" and August 18th by "Norrköping" and "Nordenskiöld". Their targets are, based on Soviet sources, seen as "S 7", "SC 406" and "L 3", respectively, and therefore the Swedes themselves don't believe their navy sunk a single Soviet sub.

However, since it is possible that the sub attacked on July 12th wasn't the same that had sunk "Luleå" on the previous day, there is a slight possibility that a sinking did indeed take place.

Last but not least, these Swedish sources do not mention any cannon fire (by "Oscar II" or any other ship or by a coastal artillery battery) used against hostile vesses. (And it puzzles me, too, where and how the Soviet(?) or Russian theories to this extent originated).

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BIGpanzer
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Post by BIGpanzer » 27 Mar 2007 14:59

Hi, Volk!

Walter Leotta wrote:
On 13.3 BP wrote:
"The success of Soviet submarines was mediocre - USSR used 277 submarines during WWII [165 submarines were in 1939 - the largest world's submarine fleet]. They sank [by torpedos, artillery fire, mines] 191 ships during Winter war.... [172.785 brt total]".

It's not possibile 172.785 brt total for 199 ships, it's too small. In this moment I've in my list 175 ships for 325.111 BRT

I guess that your info about 325.111 brt came from Soviet-period sources [for example, Dmitriev wrote about 326.000 brt of sinking ships in 1989]. The info about 172.785 brt is much more modern, and the majority of sinking ships were quite small.

Thanks for the info about amount and names of sinking ships in Baltic? Twenty-four? I have no time to check all names, but I believe that the amount of 22 is more correct.

Walter Leotta wrote:
If commissioned, someone knows the commissioned's date and final fate of this subs? and fleet?

K-54
L-18
L-25
S-17
S-18
S-21
S-22
S-23
S-35
SC-103
SC-414

Sure, I will try to post this info next week [sorry, a huge amount of work at the moment], OK?

Esa K wrote:
Can make a try, as I assume that it´s just a quest for some translation help, cause otherwise my knowledge on Naval warfare in the Baltic, and everywhere else, is very rudimentary... And, as this is a very, shall we call it massive thread, could you just point out once more where my help is needed?

Thanks a lot for the promising help! This can be not translation but transliteration help [for example, I tried to write correct names from French and Russian sources]

Janne wrote:
BP, it may or may not surprise you, but your memory has holes! You wished to know the Swedish spelling of the lighthouse that had somehow survived a two-way translitteration but come out as "nesbü" and I kindly provided you with the name as well:-)

Thanks a lot, I understand. My memory is almost absolute, but attention - is not at the moment because of many different and complicated work :wink: I mentioned so many names of lighthouses here and IIRC one of the last one mentioned was Shepelevsky.
Thanks in advance for the help with the transliterations!

Janne wrote: as for the sinkings of Soviet subs by the Royal Swedish Navy, there were according to Swedish (semi)official history and modern research three possible occasions in 1942: July 12th by "Stockholm", July 21st by "Kaparen" and "Norrköping" and August 18th by "Norrköping" and "Nordenskiöld". Their targets are, based on Soviet sources, seen as "S 7", "SC 406" and "L 3", respectively, and therefore the Swedes themselves don't believe their navy sunk a single Soviet sub.

Yes, seems to be. According to my sources:
S-7 was unsuccessfully attacked by Swedish aircraft [dropped 2 bombs, 09.07.1942 - 03.05], Swedish patrol boat tried to ram it [the same day, between 16.51-17.33], Swedish patrol boats ["Snapphanen" and "Jägaren"] unsuccessfully dropped 26 depth charges [11.07.1942, ~16.58 and later].
Shch-406 - Swedish patrol boat "Kaparen" dropped 9 depth charges far away from submarine [06.07.1942, ~08.30]; Swedish destroyers "Norkköping", "Karlskrona", patrol boat "Kaparen" and patrol aircraft unsuccesfully dropped 56 depth charges against Shch-406 22.07.1942 [~13.30 and later].
L-3 - unsuccessfully attacked by Swedish destroyers "Norrköping" and "Nordenskiöld" 18.08.1942 [17.15.-18.00]; 23.08. was unsuccessfully pursued by Swedish patrol boat.

Janne wrote:
Last but not least, these Swedish sources do not mention any cannon fire (by "Oscar II" or any other ship or by a coastal artillery battery) used against hostile vesses. (And it puzzles me, too, where and how the Soviet(?) or Russian theories to this extent originated).

Me too. I will try to find the original article nu captain 1st rank Norchenko to find the answer. http://www.deepstorm.ru [the best source about Soviet submarines] mentions this version as "not very possible".

Regards, BP

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walter leotta
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Post by walter leotta » 27 Mar 2007 15:38

Hi BG
not my sources is not old... 171.000 is too small...
only Gustloff e Steuben are 39.000 brt...
THIS IS MY LIST OF 176 SHIPS (NOW) FOR 326.175...

THIS MY LISTI


19391210 SC-323 baltico D Kassari est 1 379
19391210 S-001 baltico D Bolheim ger 1 3324
19391210 SC-322 baltico D Reinbek ger 1 2804
19391228 SC-311 baltico D Wilpas fin 1 775
19400105 SC-311 baltico D Fenris sve 1 484
19410810 SC-307 baltico smg U-144 ger 1 314
19410815 SC-211 nero D Peles rom 1 5708
19410912 SC-422 artico D Ottar Jarl nor 1 1459
19410915 L-004 nero D Chipka bul M 1 2304
19410926 Kalev baltico AS Mosel I ger M 1 796
19410929 SC-211 nero D Superga ita 1 6154
19411001 L-003 baltico D Kaija let M 1 1876
19411010 L-005 nero ACM Regel Carol I rom M 1 2369
19411016 SC-323 baltico D Baltenland ger 1 3724
19411017 SC-402 artico D Vesteraalen nor 1 682
19411026 M-035 nero LC SF-25 ger 1 140
19411103 SC-214 nero S Kaynakdere tur 1 85
19411105 SC-214 nero T Torcello ita 1 3336
19411107 Kalev baltico D Frauenberg ger M 1 2111
19411108 K-01 artico D Flottbek ger M 1 1930
19411118 SC-215 nero D Yenice tur 1 300
19411119 L-003 baltico D Henry ger M 1 764
19411119 L-004 nero APM W-2 bul M 1
19411121 K-21 artico D Bessheim ger M 1 1774
19411126 L-003 baltico M Engerau ger M 1 1142
19411203 K-03 artico APC UJ-1708 Faroer ger 1 470
19411211 K-22 artico Df Alphar nor 1 0
19411211 K-22 artico Df Bogar nor 1 0
19411221 M-174 artico D Emshorn ger 1 4301
19411226 K-01 artico D Kong Ring nor M 1 1994
19420101 SC-214 nero S Koraltepe tur 1 200
19420114 S-102 artico D Turkheim ger 1 1904
19420119 K-22 artico Df Vaaland nor 1 106
19420130 K-03 artico D Ingoy nor M 1 327
19420131 K-23 artico D Soroy nor 1 506
19420204 SC-318 baltico MT Hiddensee ger 1 643
19420205 SC-421 artico D Konsul Schulte ger 1 2975
19420223 SC-213 nero S Cankaya tur 1 264
19420224 SC-213 nero D Struma pan 1 169
19420227 SC-402 artico APC NM-01 Vandale ger 1 392
19420401 SC-404 artico D Michael ger 1 2723
19420408 K-01 artico D Kurzsee ger M 1 734
19420423 SC-401 artico D Stensaas nor 1 1359
19420424 M-173 artico D Blankenese ger 1 3236
19420429 L-004 nero LC F-130 ger M 1 155
19420518 SC-205 nero D Duatepe tur 1 128
19420523 K-01 artico D Asuncion ger M 1 2454
19420523 SC-205 nero D Safak tur 1 682
19420529 A-3 nero D Sulina rum 1 3495
19420529 SC-214 nero S Hudarvendigar tur 1 100
19420531 SC-214 nero S Mahbubdihan tur 1 85
19420616 SC-317 baltico D Argo fin 1 2513
19420620 L-006 nero Bg Danubius rom M 1 550
19420622 SC-317 baltico D Ada Gorthon sve 1 2399
19420705 SC-320 baltico D Anna Katrin Fritzen ger 1 676
19420708 SC-317 baltico D Otto Cords ger 1 966
19420709 K-21 artico APC UJ-1110 F.D.6 ger M 1 527
19420709 S-007 baltico D Margareta sve 1 1272
19420710 SC-317 baltico D Hannah sve 1 1196
19420711 S-007 baltico M Lulea sve 1 5611
19420730 S-007 baltico D Kathe ger 1 1599
19420805 S-007 baltico D Pojanlahti fin 1 682
19420818 L-003 baltico D C.F. Liljevalch sve 1 5492
19420823 M-036 nero Tg Ankara ger 1 112
19420911 S-013 baltico D Hera fin 1 1379
19420912 K-01 artico D Robert Bornhofen ger M 1 6643
19420912 S-013 baltico D Jussi H fin 1 2325
19420912 SC-309 baltico D Bonden fin 1 695
19420922 S-013 baltico D Anna W. nl 1 290
19420925 L-003 baltico M Franz Bohmke ger M 1 210
19420928 SC-310 baltico D Franz Rudolf ger 1 1419
19421001 M-118 nero D Salzburg ger 1 1742
19421006 M-031 nero Tg Mina Daniel rom 1 293
19421010 SC-216 nero D Carpati rom 1 4336
19421014 D-2 baltico D Jacobus Fritzen ger 1 4090
19421021 M-035 nero T Le Progrès ger 1 511
19421026 SC-307 baltico D Betti H. fin 1 2478
19421026 SC-406 baltico Df Mercator fin 1 119
19421028 SC-406 baltico D Bengt Sture sve 1 872
19421101 SC-406 baltico D Agnes fin 1 2983
19421106 SC-306 baltico D Elbing K ger 1 467
19421106 L-005 nero Tg Oitul rom M 1 95
19421114 L-022 artico APC Schiff 18 Alteland ger M 1 419
19421117 L-003 baltico D Hindenburg ger M 1 7880
19421206 K-01 artico APC V-6117 Cherusker ger M 1 304
19421206 K-01 artico APC V-6616 Ubier ger M 1 350
19421208 D-5 nero S Kociboglu tur 1 176
19421209 L-003 baltico D Edith Bosselmann ger M 1 952
19430101 L-020 artico D Muansa ger 1 5472
19430201 L-020 artico D Othmarschen ger 1 7077
19430201 M-172 artico APC V-6115 Ostwind ger 1 560
19430201 SC-402 artico APC V-5909 Coronel ger 1 541
19430205 K-03 artico APC UJ-1108 Elbe ger 1 462
19430212 K-03 artico D Fechenheim ger 1 8116
19430217 L-005 nero LC F-473 ger M 1 155
19430316 M-122 artico D Johannisberger ger 1 4533
19430329 S-101 artico D Ajax ger 1 2297
19430414 L-022 artico Tg Pasvik ger M 1 238
19430420 S-033 nero D Suceava rom 1 6876
19430422 K-21 artico D Duna ger M 1 1926
19430429 S-055 artico D Sturzsee ger 1 708
19430517 S-056 artico DT Eurostadt ger 1 1118
19430601 L-022 artico AH Birka II ger M 1 1000
19430615 L-023 nero LC F-121 ger M 1 155
19430717 S-056 artico PM M-346 ger 1 551
19430718 M-111 nero Bg Dunarea 1 rom 1 505
19430719 S-056 artico APC Nki-09 Alane ger 1 466
19430722 L-004 nero S Hudayi Bahri tur 1 29
19430722 L-004 nero M Tayyari tur 1 409
19430723 L-004 nero S Gurpinar tur 1 100
19430811 D-4 nero D Boy Feddersen ger 1 6689
19430820 D-4 nero D Varna bul 1 2141
19430825 SC-215 nero D Yilmaz tur 1 712
19430826 SC-215 nero M Derviske tur 1 100
19430828 S-101 artico smg U-639 ger 1 769
19430830 SC-215 nero T Thisbé ger 1 1782
19430903 S-051 artico APC UJ-1202 F. Dankworth ger 1 464
19430911 M-107 artico APC UJ-1217 Star XXII ger 1 303
19431010 A-2 nero LC F-474 ger 1 155
19431012 S-055 artico D Ammerland ger 1 5381
19431025 M-112 nero Bg Tyra-5 ger 1 1278
19431102 M-035 nero Bg SNR-1293 ger 1 1270
19431112 M-111 nero D Theoderich ger 1 3814
19431123 D-4 nero D Santa Fe ger 1 4627
19431125 L-006 nero T Wolga Don ger 1 956
19431125 M-117 nero LC F-592 ger 1 155
19431202 SC-209 nero LC F-566 ger 1 155
19431209 S-031 nero LC F-580 ger 1 155
19431228 L-022 artico PM R-64 ger M 1 125
19440131 S-056 artico D Heinrich Schulte ger 1 5056
19440424 L-015 artico APC NH-24 ger M 1 105
19440620 S-104 artico APC UJ-1209 KUJ-21 ger 1 542
19440720 SC-209 nero S Semsi Bahri tur 1 26
19440805 SC-215 nero S Mefkure tur 1 52
19441006 SC-407 baltico D Nordstern ger 1 1127
19441008 SC-310 baltico Bg Bagger 3 ger 1 400
19441008 SC-310 baltico D RO-24 Zonnewijk ger 1 4499
19441012 S-104 artico D Lumme ger 1 1730
19441012 V-2 artico APC UJ-1220 KUJ-8 ger 1 542
19441012 S-004 baltico Df Taunus ger 1 218
19441013 Lembit baltico D Hilma Lau ger 1 2414
19441013 S-004 baltico D Terra ger 1 1533
19441015 Lembit baltico APM M-3619 Crabeel ger 1 150
19441020 V-4 artico APC UJ-1219 KHJ1 ger 1 542
19441101 V-2 artico Df Stortind ger 1 169
19441110 SC-309 baltico D Carl Cords ger 1 903
19441120 L-003 baltico tp T-34 ger M 1 1294
19441124 L-021 baltico D Hansa sve 1 563
19441124 Lembit baltico Df Spreeufer ger M 1 216
19441204 SC-407 baltico D Seeburg ger 1 12181
19441207 SC-309 baltico D Nordenham ger 1 4592
19441222 L-021 baltico D Eberhard ger M 1 749
19441224 L-021 baltico D Hansa sve 1 563
19441229 K-56 baltico D Venersborg ger 1 1046
19450128 K-51 baltico D Viborg dan 1 2028
19450129 L-003 baltico D Henry Lutgens ger M 1 1141
19450130 S-013 baltico D Wilhelm Gustloff ger 1 25484
19450204 SC-318 baltico MT Hiddensee ger 1 643
19450210 S-013 baltico D General Steuben ger 1 14660
19450213 Lembit baltico PM M-421 ger M 1 543
19450223 SC-309 baltico D Gottingen ger 1 6267
19450311 SC-303 baltico D Borbek ger 1 6002
19450314 L-021 baltico tp T-3 ger M 1 839
19450314 L-021 baltico tp T-5 ger M 1 839
19450315 L-021 baltico smg U-367 ger M 1 769
19450317 K-53 baltico D Margarethe Cords ger 1 1912
19450323 L-003 baltico APM M-3138 KFK-182 ger M 1 112
19450323 L-021 baltico APC V-2002 E. Colzmann ger 1 581
19450324 L-021 baltico Tg Erni ger 1 105
19450410 SC-310 baltico D Ilmenau ger 1 1201
19450411 K-56 baltico Mf Ramona sve 1 57
19450416 L-003 baltico M Goya ger 1 5230
19450425 Lembit baltico APC V-343 K-300 ger M 1 112
19450822 L-012 pacifico AG Ogasawaru Maru jap 1 1404
19450822 L-013 pacifico D Daito Maru No.57 jap 1 887
19450822 L-019 pacifico Cable Tetsugo Maru jap 1 1403



176 326515

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walter leotta
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Post by walter leotta » 27 Mar 2007 15:45

and this is the new list of commissioned' sub
276 ships
name, date and Fleet (first assignment)

A-1 A 1 19201021 Black
A-2 A 1 19210721 Black
A-3 A 1 19220524 Black
A-4 A 1 19230711 Black
A-5 A 1 19180000 Black
D-1 D 1 19300000 Artic
D-2 D 1 19310906 Baltic
D-3 D 1 19311001 Artic
D-4 D 1 19301230 Black
D-5 D 1 19310405 Black
D-6 D 1 19310615 Black
K-01 Katjusa 1 19391216 Artic
K-02 Katjusa 1 19400715 Baltico
K-03 Katjusa 1 19401127 Baltico
K-21 Katjusa 1 19401130 Artic
K-22 Katjusa 1 19400715 Baltico
K-23 Katjusa 1 19400929 Baltico
K-51 Katjusa 1 19410917 Baltic
K-52 Katjusa 1 19421011 Baltic
K-53 Katjusa 1 19430831 Baltic
K-55 Katjusa 1 19441225 Baltic
K-56 Katjusa 1 19421125 Baltic
Kalev ex Estone 1 19400819 Baltic
L-01 L-II 1 19331022 Baltic
L-02 L-II 1 19331024 Baltic
L-03 L-II 1 19331105 Baltic
L-04 L-II 1 19331008 Black
L-05 L-II 1 19331030 Black
L-06 L-II 1 19350509 Black
L-07 L-XI 1 19361210 Pacific
L-08 L-XI 1 19361229 Pacific
L-09 L-XI 1 19361229 Pacific
L-10 L-XI 1 19371217 Pacific
L-11 L-XI 1 19381105 Pacific
L-12 L-XI 1 19381209 Pacific
L-13 L-XIII 1 19381002 Pacific
L-14 L-XIII 1 19381010 Pacific
L-15 L-XIII 1 19381106 Pacific
L-16 L-XIII 1 19391209 Pacific
L-17 L-XIII 1 19390605 Pacific
L-18 L-XIII 1 19391010 Pacific
L-19 L-XIII 1 19391010 Pacific
L-20 L_XIII mod 1 19420828 Artic
L-21 L_XIII mod 1 19430831 Baltic
L-22 L_XIII mod 1 19420828 Artic
L-23 L_XIII mod 1 19411031 Black
L-24 L_XIII mod 1 19420429 Black
L-55 ex Britain 1 19321210 Baltic
Lembit ex Estone 1 19400819 Baltic
M-001 M-VI 1 19340426 Pacific
M-002 M-VI 1 19340522 Pacific
M-003 M-VI 1 19340602 Pacific
M-004 M-VI 1 19340606 Pacific
M-005 M-VI 1 19331029 Pacific
M-006 M-VI 1 19340613 Pacific
M-007 M-VI 1 19340706 Pacific
M-008 M-VI 1 19340705 Pacific
M-009 M-VI 1 19340705 Pacific
M-010 M-VI 1 19340705 Pacific
M-011 M-VI 1 19340705 Pacific
M-012 M-VI 1 19340724 Pacific
M-013 M-VI 1 19340714 Pacific
M-014 M-VI 1 19340710 Pacific
M-015 M-VI 1 19340710 Pacific
M-016 M-VI 1 19340722 Pacific
M-017 M-VI 1 19340721 Pacific
M-018 M-VI 1 19340722 Pacific
M-019 M-VI 1 19340822 Pacific
M-020 M-VI 1 19340823 Pacific
M-021 M-VI 1 19340923 Pacific
M-022 M-VI 1 19341010 Pacific
M-023 M-VI 1 19341010 Pacific
M-024 M-VI 1 19341205 Pacific
M-025 M-VI 1 19341205 Pacific
M-026 M-VI 1 19340414 Pacific
M-027 M-VI 1 19341231 Pacific
M-028 M-VI 1 19350716 Pacific
M-030 M-XII 1 19400831 Pacific
M-031 M-XII 1 19401107 Black
M-032 M-XII 1 19401107 Black
M-033 M-XII 1 19401218 Black
M-034 M-XII 1 19401231 Black
M-035 M-XII 1 19410224 Black
M-036 M-XII 1 19410223 Black
M-047 (M-053) M-VI mod 1 19350611 Pacific
M-048 (M-56) M-VI mod 1 19361019 Pacific
M-051 M-VI 1 19340909 Black
M-052 M-VI 1 19340909 Black
M-054 M-VI mod 1 19361014 Black
M-055 M-VI mod 1 19361017 Black
M-057 (M-049) M-XII 1 19390727 Pacific
M-058 M-XII 1 19391010 Black
M-059 M-XII 1 19400619 Black
M-060 M-XII 1 19400619 Black
M-062 M-XII 1 19400731 Black
M-063 M-XII 1 19400731 Pacific
M-071 M-VI mod 1 19350913 Baltic
M-072 M-VI mod 1 19350913 Baltic
M-073 M-VI mod 1 19350913 Baltic
M-074 M-VI mod 1 19350913 Baltic
M-075 M-VI mod 1 19350913 Baltic
M-076 M-VI mod 1 19350913 Baltic
M-077 (M45, M88) M-VI mod 1 19360625 Baltic
M-078 M-VI mod 1 19360625 Baltic
M-079 M-VI mod 1 19361010 Baltic
M-080 M-VI mod 1 19360722 Baltic
M-081 M-VI mod 1 19360722 Baltic
M-082 (M43) M-VI mod 1 19351106 Pacific
M-083 M-VI mod 1 19351108 Baltic
M-084 (M44) M-VI mod 1 19351127 Pacific
M-085 M-VI mod 1 19351104 Pacific
M-086 (M46, M78) M-VI mod 1 19351104 Pacific
M-090 M-XII 1 19380625 Baltic
M-092 M-XII 1 19380408 Baltic
M-094 M-XII 1 19391212 Baltic
M-095 M-XII 1 19391120 Baltic
M-096 M-XII 1 19391212 Baltic
M-097 M-XII 1 19391112 Baltic
M-098 M-XII 1 19400801 Baltic
M-099 M-XII 1 19400723 Baltic
M-102 M-XII 1 19401229 Baltic
M-103 M-XII 1 19401229 Baltic
M-104 M-XII 1 19430224 Artic
M-105 M-XII 1 19430317 Artic
M-106 M-XII 1 19430428 Artic
M-107 M-XII 1 19430810 Artic
M-108 M-XII 1 19430824 Artic
M-111 M-XII 1 19410705 Baltic
M-112 M-XII 1 19410705 Baltic
M-113 M-XII 1 19410705 Baltic
M-114 M-XII 1 19411112 Pacific
M-115 M-XII 1 19411001 Pacific
M-116 M-XII 1 19411107 Pacific
M-117 M-XII 1 19411108 Black
M-118 M-XII 1 19411108 Black
M-119 M-XII 1 19421029 Artic
M-120 M-XII 1 19411108 Black
M-121 M-XII 1 19420410 Artic
M-122 M-XII 1 19420801 Artic
M-171 (M87) M-XII 1 19371211 Artic
M-172 (M88) M-XII 1 19371211 Artic
M-173 (M89) M-XII 1 19380622 Artic
M-174 (M91) M-XII 1 19381024 Artic
M-175 (M92) M-XII 1 19380928 Artic
M-176 (M93) M-XII 1 19381011 Artic
M-200 M-XV 1 19430320 Artic
M-201 M-XV 1 19430416 Artic
M-202 M-XV 1 19440219 Baltic
M-203 M-XV 1 19441028
P-1 Pravda 1 19360723 Baltic
P-2 Pravda 1 19360723 Baltic
P-3 Pravda 1 19360723 Baltic
Ronis ex Latv 1 19400813 Baltic
S-001 Stalinec I 1 19390911 Baltic
S-002 Stalinec I 1 19360923 Baltic
S-003 Stalinec I 1 19380708 Baltic
S-004 Stalinec II 1 19391030 Baltic
S-005 Stalinec II 1 19391030 Baltic
S-006 Stalinec II 1 19391030 Baltic
S-007 Stalinec II 1 19400630 Baltic
S-008 Stalinec II 1 19400630 Baltic
S-009 Stalinec II 1 19401031 Baltic
S-010 Stalinec II 1 19401225 Baltic
S-011 Stalinec II 1 19410627 Baltic
S-012 Stalinec II 1 19410724 Baltic
S-013 Stalinec II 1 19410731 Baltic
S-014 Stalinec III 1 19429421 Artic
S-015 Stalinec III 1 19421220 Artic
S-016 Stalinec III 1 19430210 Artic
S-017 Stalinec 1 19450420
S-018 Stalinec 1 19450620
S-019 Stalinec III 1 19440221 Artic
S-020 Stalinec III 1 19450219 Artic
S-031 Stalinec II 1 19400619 Black
S-032 Stalinec II 1 19400619 Black
S-033 Stalinec II 1 19401118 Black
S-034 Stalinec II 1 19410329 Black
S-051 Stalinec II 1 19411130 Pacific
S-052 Stalinec II 1 19430609 Pacific
S-053 Stalinec II 1 19430130 Pacific
S-054 Stalinec II 1 19401231 Pacific
S-055 Stalinec II 1 19410725 Pacific
S-056 Stalinec II 1 19411020 Pacific
S-101 Stalinec II 1 19401215 Artic
S-102 Stalinec II 1 19401216 Artic
S-103 Stalinec III 1 19420630 Artic
S-104 Stalinec III 1 19420922 Artic
SC-101 ShCh II 1 19330922 Pacific
SC-102 ShCh II 1 19330922 Pacific
SC-104 ShCh II 1 19331105 Pacific
SC-105 ShCh II 1 19331105 Pacific
SC-106 ShCh II 1 19331126 Pacific
SC-107 ShCh II 1 19331127 Pacific
SC-108 ShCh II 1 19331221 Pacific
SC-109 ShCh II 1 19340418 Pacific
SC-110 ShCh II 1 19340518 Pacific
SC-111 ShCh II 1 19340911 Pacific
SC-112 ShCh II 1 19340911 Pacific
SC-113 ShCh II -M 1 19340911 Pacific
SC-114 ShCh II -M 1 19340911 Pacific
SC-115 ShCh II -M 1 19341010 Pacific
SC-116 ShCh II -M 1 19350111 Pacific
SC-117 ShCh II -M 1 19341218 Pacific
SC-118 ShCh II -M 1 19341218 Pacific
SC-119 ShCh II -M 1 19350202 Pacific
SC-120 ShCh II -M 1 19350130 Pacific
SC-121 SC 1 19350430 Pacific
SC-122 SC 1 19350430 Pacific
SC-123 SC 1 19350430 Pacific
SC-124 SC 1 19350929 Pacific
SC-125 SC 1 19360515 Pacific
SC-126 SC 1 19361017 Pacific
SC-127 SC 1 19361017 Pacific
SC-128 SC 1 19361031 Pacific
SC-129 SC 1 19361031 Pacific
SC-130 SC 1 19361211 Pacific
SC-131 SC 1 19361211 Pacific
SC-132 SC 1 19361211 Pacific
SC-133 SC 1 19361119 Pacific
SC-134 SC 1 19361227 Pacific
SC-135 SC 1 19410901 Pacific
SC-136 SC 1 19410905 Pacific
SC-137 SC 1 19411118 Pacific
SC-138 SC 1 19411230 Pacific
SC-201 ShCh II -M 1 19350805 Black
SC-202 ShCh II -M 1 19350903 Black
SC-203 ShCh II -M 1 19350904 Black
SC-204 SC 1 19351230 Black
SC-205 SC 1 19361117 Black
SC-206 SC 1 19360814 Black
SC-207 SC 1 19361117 Black
SC-208 SC 1 19370309 Black
SC-209 SC 1 19361231 Black
SC-210 SC 1 19361231 Black
SC-211 SC 1 19380505 Black
SC-212 SC 1 19381031 Black
SC-213 SC 1 19381031 Black
SC-214 SC 1 19390304 Black
SC-215 SC 1 19370111 Black
SC-216 SC 1 19410817 Black
SC-301 ShCh-III 1 19331014 Baltic
SC-302 ShCh-III 1 19331014 Baltic
SC-303 ShCh-III 1 19331115 Baltic
SC-304 ShCh-III 1 19340815 Baltic
SC-305 ShCh II -M 1 19350719 Baltic
SC-306 ShCh 1 19350804 Baltic
SC-307 ShCh 1 19350804 Baltic
SC-308 ShCh 1 19351114 Baltic
SC-309 ShCh 1 19360820 Baltic
SC-310 ShCh 1 19360820 Baltic
SC-311 ShCh 1 19360821 Baltic
SC-315 (423, 139) SC 1 19371205 Artic
SC-317 ShCh 1 19360929 Baltic
SC-318 SC 1 19360812 Baltic
SC-319 SC 1 19361129 Baltic
SC-320 ShCh 1 19361129 Baltic
SC-322 SC 1 19361103
SC-323 ShCh 1 19361103
SC-324 SC 1 19361031
SC-401 SC 1 19360717 Baltic
SC-402 SC 1 19360926 Baltic
SC-403 SC 1 19360926
SC-404 SC 1 19360926 Baltic
SC-405 SC 1 19410607 Baltic
SC-406 ShCh 1 19410607 Baltic
SC-407 ShCh 1 19410910 Baltic
SC-408 SC 1 19410910 Baltic
SC-411 SC 1 19450721 Baltic
SC-421 SC 1 19371205
SC-422 SC 1 19371204 Black
SC-424 (312, 321) SC 1 19360717 Artic
Spidola ex Latv 1 19400813 Baltic
TS-1 ex Rom 1 19440914 Black
TS-2 ex Rom 1 19440914 Black
TS-3 ex Rom 1 19440914 Black
V-1 ex HMS 1 19440624 Artic
V-2 ex HMS 1 19440626 Artic
V-3 ex HMS 1 19440626 Artic
V-4 ex HMS 1 19440626 Artic

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walter leotta
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Location: ITALY

Post by walter leotta » 27 Mar 2007 15:47

sorry BP
the subs list has 279 ships because there are 3 ex Romanian subs

Walter

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walter leotta
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Posts: 21
Joined: 22 Mar 2007 11:58
Location: ITALY

Post by walter leotta » 27 Mar 2007 16:05

Hi all
sorry again

it's NOT important exactly for me day of sub's commission.
I'm very interested exactly orders of battle of soviet subs:
1) before 1.9.39
2) between 1.9.39 to 22.6.41
3) between 22.6.41 to 2.9.45

fleet's composition
1) on 1.9.39
2) on 22.6.41

losses and victories by years and theatres..

PS I've the excel's lists if people wants

WORKS EVEN IN PROGRESS...

WALTER

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BIGpanzer
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Location: Central Europe

Post by BIGpanzer » 27 Mar 2007 18:50

Juha wrote:
Actually it was the other way.
Accordng to Suomen Ilmavoimien Historia vol.24, a 200kg depth charge (set to explode at 20m) was dropped 20m behind the sub periscope. Then came the oil.

How it was actually you don't know :? [the same for me].
According to my sources [the list see somewhere above] - M-95 went to position from Is. Lavansaari 14.06.1942 [23.43] to Western Gogland reach. There were no radiomessages from the submarine. In the morning 15.06.1942 the large explosion was detected by Finnish [Gogland] and Soviet [Lavansaari, patrol boats] observation posts 4 miles NE from South-Gogland lighthouse [mine field "Rukajarvi"], and 16.06.1942 Finnish aircraft bombed oil spot there. 14 men were lost. So M-95 exploded/sank on sea mine or was heavily damaged by that mine explosion [and sank next day by Finnish bomber]. This description of event seems to be a little bit more correct than yours, but I would say that the ways are quite similar :lol: .

Juha wrote:
Four days from the week at bottom of the sea, yes.

Four days waiting [at bottom and in surface, probable], other three days - on the way to the corresponding point. IIRC I provide you with timetable already.

Juha wrote:
M-97 exploded on sea mine 04-11.09.1942 and was detected by Finnish observation posts 04.09.1942
source?

Shirokorad gives the following info: 01.09.1942 M-97 moved to Eastern Cogland reach and began to cross Gogland line at underwater position. There were no any radiomessages about crossing of Gogland line. Probably, M-97 exploded on mine there between 02.-25.09.1942.
Taras mentiones the following: M-97 exploded on German mine in the Gulf of Finland SW off Porkkala-Ud, 11.09.1942. Found and investigated by Swedish divers in 1990.
http://www.deepstorm.ru as the best and most detailed source in my opinion: 01.09.1942 M-97 was escorted by base mine-sweeper to Eastern Gogland reach, submarine was in diving point at 00.31. M-97 should reach the position No. 9 after that [between Helsinki and Tallinn]. M-97 didn't returned to base and there were no radiomessages from it. 02.09.1942 Finnish radiostation [in Kotka] reported [01.45] about the detection of Soviet submarine 13.5 miles NW of Is. Rodsher. 03.09. [20.45] and 04.09. [22.25] Soviet submarine base tried to communicate with M-97 but there was no answer. In the morning 04.09.1942 Finnish observation post near lighthouse Porkkalan-Kallboda detected Soviet submarine, 10.09 [23.25] Helsinki radiostation mentioned detection of Soviet submarine in that region. Probably, exploded on mine [mine field "Nashorn"], several researches mention the date of explosion - morning 11.09.1942; 20 men were lost. In 1990 it was detected S to Helsinki [59.50'/24.30'].

Juha wrote:
There were two subs at the region, of both of Iku-Turso fought, sinking the ShCh-320.

There was also Shch-308 not far away :wink:
I've already mention that this is not true [most probably] and Finns mistaked :? But you still spread here even more incorrect info trying to cut corners - already two subs appeared of both of Iku-Turso fought :lol: :lol: The same time and with the same amount of 20mm shells [IIRC ~50] Iku-Turso met with two submarines, probably :lol: Finns claimed that they torpedoed Shch-320 but that was Shch-307 which avoided torpedo and dived, returning to the base successfully [Finnish sources are quite correct till the moment when Iku-Turso fired a torpedo....Gun fire flash blinded Finnish submariners most probably, but they thought that was torpedo explosion, Shch-307 dived at that moment].

Juha wrote:
Also to where the back line of 10th October 1942 at the Russian estimations about the sinking date of the ShCh-320 is based at?
Any answers to that question?

So what, if I don't know the answer [and nobody knows in this case] that means that "Iku-Turso" could torpedoed submarine according to your and old Soviet version? :)
See below.

Noch einmal for Juha who believes to his incorrect in this case Finnish sources :? :
From http://www.deepstorm.ru [hard translations especially for him :roll: , sorry for possible transliteration errors]
Shch-320 - 1.10.1942 [19.55] went to Is. Lavansaari [escorted by base mine-sweepers No. 210, 211, 217, 218 and 3 patrol boats]. 2.10.1942 [03.30] escort ships anchored because of strong fog and the submarine went farther alone. [04.06] it reached the diving point 6 miles to the W from Is. Lavansaari and began the run to the area SW from Is. Bornholm [position No. 1 to the south of 55th parallel]. Shch-320 didn't send any radiomessages about finish of crossing of Gulf of Finland and about arrival to position No. 1; there were no any replies from submarine according to requests from the base [08.10 and 09.10]. Most probable reasons of loss - explosion on mine field "Juminda" during battery charging [it was planned to cross Gulf of Finland along the south seashore] or explosion on mine field "Seeigel" or "Nashorn". Shch-303 detected also several depth charges explosions [from German warships] in the area, evening 03.10 off Gogland. Several sources mention the explosion on drifting mine 03.10.1942 [NW off Is. Vaindlo] (where it should charge the batteries) as the reason of loss. 39 men were lost.

Shch-308 - 15.09.1942 [20.33] - 16.09.1942 [04.00] went to Is. Lavansaari [escorted by base mine-sweepers No. 207, 211, 215, 217, 218 and 2 patrol boats]. The convoy was shelled by Finnish coastal artillery from fort Ino [unsuccessfully]. Two mines exploded in mine-sweeps of one mine-sweeper east to Is. Seskar. 18.09.1942 [01.25] Shch-308 reached entry of Gulf of Finland [position No. 5], escorted till diving point. 22.09.1942 - finished the crossing of Gulf of Finland and reached the position [no messages were received by HQ, nevertheless]. 28.09.1942 HQ sent the request and it was replied by submarine commander: "No targets, can I change the position" [29.09., 23.15]. The commander of base replied [30.09., 01.08]: "after achieving the success near Is. Utö move to cape Ristna [position No. 4 - BP]". 02.10.1942 - unsuccessfully attacked Finnish convoy west off Hango [transport "Vanda"]. 07.10.1942 - unsuccessfully attacked German hospital ship "Rügen", 10 miles SW from Is. Utö [15.22]. 19.10.1942 - unsuccessfully attacked German anti-submarine ship "Schiff 47" S of Is. Utö [submarine was lightly damaged during ram counterattack of Germans]. 20.10.1942 [01.22] - Shch-308 sent a radio message about possible sinking of 3 ships [16000 brt], own damages and asked to return to the base. 20.10.1942 [22.30 and 23.05] two radiomessages were sent from the base as reply - it was allowed to return to the base and was recommended how to do it [the route to avoid mine fields and patrol boats]. No more radiomessages were received from submarine [no messages about leaving the position and beginning to cross the Gulf of Finland]. Possible reasons of loss: explosion on mine from fields "Nashorn" [most probably], "Juminda" or "Seeigel"; there is also a version that Shch-308 was torpedoed by Finnish "Iku-Tursu" near strait Serda-Kvarken 26-27.10.1942 but the area of the route of Shch-308 should not be very close to that region, also it is not clear why Shch-308 stayed on position till 26-27.10 in that case as it had the order to return back 20.10.1942. 40 men were lost.

Shch-307 - 23.09.1942 [21.10] came to Norchepinga bay [position No. 11]. The submarine was escorted by base mine-sweepers No. 210, 211, 215, 217, 218 and 3 patrol boats till diving point [East Gogland reach]. Reached the point [24.09.1942, 05.29]. Reached the position near lighthouse Huvudsher [22.30]. 28.09.1942 patrolled the area near lighthouse Landsort, rejected the attack against convoy because of low depth. 30.09. Swedish submarine was detected. 01.10. [night time] - received the order from the base to go to the position No. 6 [Aland Sea], 02.10 [02.31] - sent a message that position near Is. Arnholm was reached. 02.10 [14.14] - underwater torpedo attack against convoy [3 transports, 1 mine-sweeper], 2 torpedos from 15 cables: in 2 min 2 explosions were heard , but transport "Vanda" and mine-layer "Ruotsinsalmi" were not hit. 14.25-14.52 - enemy patrol boats dropped 11 depth charges unsuccessfully. 03.10 - rejected the attack of single transport and convoy because of large heading angle. 07.10 - rejected the attack of convoy because of the same reason, the same happened 08.10. with two detected convoys.
09.10 - Shch-307 detected Finnish submarine in the surface and prepared to torpedo attack, but Finns dived. 10.10. - couldn't attack the convoy because of action of anti-submarine vessels. 11.10. [12.26] - torpedo attack against convoy [3 transports, 3 mine-sweepers, 4 patrol boats], 59.58'/19.39' [2 torpedos from 15 cables], explosion was heard but Finnish transport "Orient" and German transport "Hiddensee" were not hit. Patrol boats and aircraft dropped 7 depth charges [unsuccessfully]. 12.10. - rejected the attack against convoy because of large distance, was detected by enemy submarine [Iku-Turso?] but dived. 13.10. - couldn't attack single transport and convoy because of action of anti-submarine vessels. 16.10. - rejected the attacks against against 2 convoys because of large distance and heading angle. 21.10.1942 - torpedo attack against convoy [15.36; 6 transports, 2 patrol ships, 2 mine-sweepers, 2 patrol boats] - 2 torpedos from 7-12 cables, but transport avoided torpedo; anti-submarine vessels didn't attack submarine. 23-24.10 - moved to the south part of the position. 26.10. [12.07.] - torpedo attack against convoy [5 transports, 4 patrol boats], 2 torpedos from 6 cables: strong explosion in 55 sec. - Finnish transport "Betty H", 2478 brt was sank [59.54'/19.36']. Warships and aircraft dropped 10 depth charges [unsuccessfully]. [15.50] - the attack against Finnish submarines "Vetehinen" and "Iku-Turso" was rejected [Soviet captain thought those were Swedish submarines].. [20.44] - went countercourses with "Iku-Turso" [distance 20 m], Finnish submariners made near 50 shots from 20mm gun without any damages, Shch-307 unsuccessfully tried to find Finns in the dark 27.10. [01.00] unsuccessfully attacked by "Iku-Turso" [2 torpedos missed as Shch-307 detected torpedo trails and crash dived]. In the evening received the message to return to the base, 28.10. [04.10] began to cross Gulf of Finland. 31.10. - imaginary touched 2 mine anchor lines SW from cape Tüters. 01.11.1942 [10.05.] met with Soviet patrol boats, arrived to bay Norre-Kappellacht [12.46]. 06.11 [17.00] - 07.11 [00.55] went to Kronshtadt [escorted by base mine-sweepers No. 207, 210, 211, 217, 218 and 2 patrol boats].

Juha wrote:
there is a version that Shch-408 was damaged [not sank] by "Ruotsinsalmi" + VMV 6 and sank by mine-layer "Riilahti"
Do you know the source(s) of that version?

Shirokorad [2002] - Shch-408 was detected and attacked by enemy anti-submarine forces 22.05.1943 off Is. Vaindlo during battery charging. Aviation and Finnish warships pursued the submarine during the whole day. Shch-408 was damaged, oil leaked away, accumulators were almost empty. Soviet captain decided to emerged, called for aviation help and had artillery combat with Finnish patrol boats, charging battery during 2 h. Then Shch-408 dived again and was destroyed by depth charges. Enemy warships tried to detect submarine till 24.05.1943. In my opinion not correct description.
Taras [2004] - Shch-408 was sank by depth charges from two Finnish mine-sweapers and patrol boat VMV-6 off Is. Vaindlo, 24.05.1943.
http://www.deepstorm.ru - mentioned as one of the possible versions that Shch-408 was damaged by "Ruotsinsalmi" and VMV 6, and sank by "Riilahti" soon. This source gives also the following info: 22.05.1943 commander of Shch-408 sent two last radiomessages one by one [02.55 and 02.58] - "under attack of enemy anti-submarine vessels, have damages, have no possibility to charge battery, send aviation for support, my location - Vaindlo.....". The group of 8 I-153 and I-16 took-off from Is. Lavensaari but lost 2 aircraft and returned back, in 8 hours 10 La-5 were sent by Baltic Sea HQ [they also lost 2 aircraft and didn't have success against Finnish warships]. Only in 20 hours the significant amount of aviation was sent but it was too late.

Regards, BP

PS. Volks, I will return back next week here, a lot of work to do and I have absolutelly no time for all things I am interested in, sorry.

PS2. Thanks to Walter! Of course, I have no possibility to check all your interesting and huge amount of info at the moment :lol:
As for Soviet submarines of WWII period, I recommend several databases [on Russian, unfortunately]:
1. http://sovnavy-ww2.by.ru/ [the short info - dates, specifications] about all warships of Soviet Navy of WWII period. I guess ~90-100% correct info depends on the subject.
2. http://www.town.ural.ru/ship/ship/ship.php3 - quite good database about all Soviet WWII submarines, sometimes almost 100% correct with a very detailed newest info, sometimes not correct with the info from old sources. Need to check it in addition before start to believe to the info.
3. http://www.deepstorm.ru/ - the most detailed info about all aspects [career day by day, blue-prints, specifications] of Russian submarines from XIX c. till present. Extremelly good site, which takes into consideration and analyzes all known info about Russian submarines from native and foreign sources, site has forum inside. I guess ~98-100% correct info depends on the subject. Site is supported by St. Petersburg union of submariners. I believe to this info in the case of any doubt.
4. http://submarine.id.ru/ - a lot of interesting research articles inside, excellent info about modern Russian submarines but very short info about WWII submarines, so not recommended for WWII research.
5. http://submarines.narod.ru/ - quite good site as me seems but I never use it in my searches as it was under construction and far away from full database still

User avatar
Juha Tompuri
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Location: Mylsä

Post by Juha Tompuri » 27 Mar 2007 23:24

BIGpanzer about M-95 wrote:" 16.06.1942 Finnish aircraft bombed
BP wrote:Finnish aircraft bombed oil spot there.
These seem not to match what I have read. Do you know the sources of these claims?

BP wrote:
Juha wrote:Four days from the week at bottom of the sea, yes.

Four days waiting [at bottom and in surface, probable], other three days - on the way to the corresponding point. IIRC I provide you with timetable already.
Your version of it, yes.

BP wrote:
Juha wrote:M-97 exploded on sea mine 04-11.09.1942 and was detected by Finnish observation posts 04.09.1942
source?
Taras mentiones... Found and investigated by Swedish divers in 1990.
BP wrote:www.deepstorm.ru... In 1990 it was detected S to Helsinki [59.50'/24.30'].
The case should then be clear...if the sub wreck in reality has been found (near Helsinki)?

BP wrote:
Juha wrote:There were two subs at the region, of both of Iku-Turso fought, sinking the ShCh-320.

BP wrote: The same time and with the same amount of 20mm shells [IIRC ~50]
Now I don't follow. Sources to your claims would perhaps shed some light here.


BP wrote:
Juha wrote:Also to where the back line of 10th October 1942 at the Russian estimations about the sinking date of the ShCh-320 is based at?
Any answers to that question?

So what, if I don't know the answer [and nobody knows in this case]
8O
So, there is date in what you seem to belive in, but no-one knows the reason of the date.
Weird.
Do you then happen to know by whom and when this date was invented?

BP wrote:...that means that "Iku-Turso" could torpedoed submarine
Yes.

BP wrote:From http://www.deepstorm.ru....
Swedish submarine was detected. 01.10. [night time]

09.10 - Shch-307 detected Finnish submarine in the surface and prepared to torpedo attack, but Finns dived.
12.10... was detected by enemy submarine [Iku-Turso?] but dived.
26.10...[15.50] - the attack against Finnish submarines "Vetehinen" and " the attack against Finnish submarines "Vetehinen" and "Iku-Turso" was rejected [Soviet captain thought those were Swedish submarines]
Very interesting info from the Soviet sub crew.
Do you happen to know more of them (time, etc)?

BP wrote:Shirokorad [2002] - Shch-408 was detected and attacked by enemy anti-submarine forces 22.05.1943 off Is. Vaindlo during battery charging. Aviation and Finnish warships pursued the submarine during the whole day. Shch-408 was damaged, oil leaked away, accumulators were almost empty. Soviet captain decided to emerged, called for aviation help and had artillery combat with Finnish patrol boats, charging battery during 2 h. Then Shch-408 dived again and was destroyed by depth charges. Enemy warships tried to detect submarine till 24.05.1943. In my opinion not correct description.
Taras [2004] - Shch-408 was sank by depth charges from two Finnish mine-sweapers and patrol boat VMV-6 off Is. Vaindlo, 24.05.1943.
http://www.deepstorm.ru - mentioned as one of the possible versions that Shch-408 was damaged by "Ruotsinsalmi" and VMV 6, and sank by "Riilahti" soon. This source gives also the following info: 22.05.1943 commander of Shch-408 sent two last radiomessages one by one [02.55 and 02.58] - "under attack of enemy anti-submarine vessels, have damages, have no possibility to charge battery, send aviation for support, my location - Vaindlo.....". The group of 8 I-153 and I-16 took-off from Is. Lavensaari but lost 2 aircraft and returned back, in 8 hours 10 La-5 were sent by Baltic Sea HQ [they also lost 2 aircraft and didn't have success against Finnish warships]. Only in 20 hours the significant amount of aviation was sent but it was too late.
According to P-O Ekman, the sub was sighted surfaced and attacked 21/22 by German MFP barges off Vaindlo. The sub was hit to the stern and it dived without returning to the fire from the German vessels.
Then the german vessels had run out of depth charges, and on the morning 22th the Ruotsinsalmi and VMV 6 came to the area, to release the German vessels.For the next two days the Finnish vessels both dropped depth charges and with sonic detector, listened the sub moving. Also a fuel trail on the water marked the sub movements. On morning 24th Riilahti also came to the scene, and when the sub tried to escape with full speed (submerged) it was detected and depth charged.
The first two depth charges brought up oil, debris and ca. 20-30m diameter air bubbles.
Ruotsinsalmi stayed at the area, noticing the oil spreading.
No mentions about any aerial activity from either side.

Regards, Juha

Janne
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Posts: 473
Joined: 15 Feb 2006 11:53
Location: Helsinki

Post by Janne » 28 Mar 2007 12:18

In order of appearance (with apologies for any I may have missed):

sv: Hogland (var: Högland, fi: Suursaari)
fi: Rukajärvi
sv: Porkala udd (fi: Porkkalanniemi)
sv: Rödskär
sv: Seitskär (var: Seskär, fi: Seiskari)
sv: Huvudskär
sv: Åland (fi: Ahvenanmaa)
fi: Tytärsaari (sv: Tytterskär)

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