Victories and losses of Soviet submarines during WWII

[Seppo Koivisto]

The book Turku laivaston tukikohtana (Turku as naval base) by Eero Auvinen (1989) has some info about the Soviet submarines based in Finnish ports.

The Soviet submarine tender ships Smolnyi and Poljarjana Zvezda came to Turku in October 1944 and left on 17 July 1945. ShCh-309 returned from a mission to Turku on 3 March 1945, damaged by depth charges. At least S-13, ShCh-307, L-21 and Lembit were also based in Turku. ShCh-307 was in repair in Turku (at Crichton Vulcan shipyard?) from 27 September to 14 October 1945, it was the last Soviet sub there.

Subs were escorted by Finnish ice breakers to Utö, from there also ShCh-303, K-52, ShCh-310 and L-3 started their voyage.

Other tender ships were in Helsinki and Porkkala.

A link about the sinking of Gustloff:
http://www.turunsanomat.fi/sunnuntai/?t ... :0:0:0:0:0:

[BIGpanzer]

Thanks, guys, for replies - I will ask tomorrow in details, OK?

To Juha:
I've checked all Baltic submarines which were in service in 1940 (timetables of their careers) - no any mentions that Soviet submarine collided with Finnish steamer in October 1940.

PS. Additional info about the use of Soviet submarines during the Winter war:
*Small submarine M-77 - 04.01.1940 it was attacked by Finnish airplane when submarine crossed ice blocks off Kalbadagrund. Finnish pilot opened MG fire and then dropped bomb [but missed]. M-77 was pressed by ice and couldn't perform manoeuvring, also its MG and 45mm gun were frozen and couldn't fire. Only in 22 min 45mm gun was warmed and submariners drove the Finn away.

All Soviet submarines participated in Winter war had the strict order: to follow the international rules of sea war and to use the law of prize during attacks. In reality things went differ sometimes.

PS2. Small submarine M-79 was attacked by Finnish battleship of coastal defence "Väinämöinen" [which tried to ram the Soviet submarine in neutral waters] in September 1938. M-79 just could dive. That accident almost became the international conflict between two countries more than one year before Winter war started. As Morozov mentioned - "that case was put into the box of back-to-back insults between two countries".

[Juha Tompuri]

PS. Additional info about the use of Soviet submarines during the Winter war:
*Small submarine M-77 - 04.01.1940 it was attacked by Finnish airplane when submarine crossed ice blocks off Kalbadagrund. Finnish pilot opened MG fire and then dropped bomb [but missed]. M-77 was pressed by ice and couldn't perform manoeuvring, also its MG and 45mm gun were frozen and couldn't fire. Only in 22 min 45mm gun was warmed and submariners drove the Finn away.

7th of Dec-40 a Finnish Blackburn Ripon dropped a depth charge against a Soviet sub East of Suursaari/Hogland. No effects noticed. Depth charges were dropped that rarely during Winter War, that most probably it's the same event.

've checked all Baltic submarines which were in service in 1940 (timetables of their careers) - no any mentions that Soviet submarine collided with Finnish steamer in October 1940.

The ship was of wood, and perhaps the sub wasn't even damaged.

All Soviet submarines participated in Winter war had the strict order: to follow the international rules of sea war and to use the law of prize during attacks. In reality things went differ sometimes.

Yes, sometimes.

PS2. Small submarine M-79 was attacked by Finnish battleship of coastal defence "Väinämöinen" [which tried to ram the Soviet submarine in neutral waters] in September 1938. M-79 just could dive. That accident almost became the international conflict between two countries more than one year before Winter war started. As Morozov mentioned - "that case was put into the box of back-to-back insults between two countries".

Never heard.
Can you give us more exact time and location?

Regards, Juha

[Janne]

The ship sunk on Dec 28th was the Finnish tanker "Sigrid"; "Wilpas" tried to flee the sub but run aground on a rock, the crew evacuated the ship, which was shot up the following day by the Soviet sub.

During the attack on the convoy in which "Aura II" was sunk, the auxiliary escort "Tursas" tried to ram the Soviet sub; "Aura II" got five depth charges out before the sixth exploded. (IMHO it would indeed be truly embarrassing to be caught by a surfaced sub while in the process of trying to attack it with depth charges, and strange things do sometimes happen in wars, but I'd still rate one scenario as a lot more reasonable and likely than another.)

The story about the "Vesihiisi" being exhibited as "U-17, the scourge of the seas" is known, but IIRC it took place in London and one of the Finnish naval officers who visited it there had served on "Vesihiisi." (In other words, the story makes such a good anecdote that it's almost too good to be true - which doesn't mean that it has to be untrue.)

[BIGpanzer]

Quick notes.

Seppo Koivisto wrote:
I think Veikko Hyytiäinen was not trying to tell us the technical specifications of the Soviet sub, but to express his humble opinion, that diving was perhaps not the wisest thing to do.

I understand this from the beginning. Nevertheless, I am wondering why Hyytiäinen described Soviet submarine of "Shch"-type so incorrect [30 m longer than Finnish submarine whereas in reality "Vetehinen" is a little bit longer even, see above]. The crash dive was the best thing to do [but the distance between two submarines was too short], the other two possibilities were: to try to ram Finns also [but there was no time to perform such turn] or to start artillery combat [and I am absolutely not sure in the result as Finnish 76mm gun was more powerful and 20mm gun was more rapid-firing than two Soviet 45mm guns, so Soviet submarine could be damaged any way even if it could sink Finns and damaged submarine should return to the base through the mine fields and strong anti-submarine defense].

Juha wrote:
Russian "cable" might be slightly shorter

There is no such term as "Russian cable". Russian/Soviet Navy used sea cable identical to British [185.2 m] for sure, American cable is differ - 219.5 m. Some variations can be in modern yachting sport indeed [according to your link above] but these civil units are not identical to naval units.

Juha wrote:
I believe that both numbers and tonnage are important, but tonnage more.

Professor Platonov described in details [still not finish to translate this chapter] that tonnage is less important in the analysis of action of Soviet submarines at Black Sea [for example] where there were only a few enemy large tonnage targets. So comparison between numbers is much more important in the case of Soviet navies during WWII [but, of course, tonnage should be given always also]. As example - imagine that you are an admiral and have two submarine divisions [10 submarines each] in the North and in the South. Your North submarines acted unsuccessfully during the war, didn't find any targets and only one submarine performed attack and sank very large transport [35000 brt]. But your South submarines acted very successfully, performed many torpedo attacks and each sank 1 ship/warship - 5 transports 2000 brt each and 5 destroyers 3000 t each. Is it absolutely correct for you to mention in postwar memoires that your North division sank 35000 tons and South division was less successful - only 25000 tons.

Janne wrote:
Re: the Soviet Navy code - according to an article in "Jatkosodan pikkujättiläinen" the Finns were never able to break their 5-zipher code (whereas 20-50% of other 5-zipher codes were effectively broken with the help of errors/poor discipline by signallers and captured "mostly by Germans" code books), while 2-, 3- and 4-level codes were routinely broken (without the aid of any code books).

Platonov also mentioned that usual Soviet submarine radiomessages were quite often intercepted and decoded by enemy, but specially encoded radiomessages which were sent with the help of close radio connection devices were not broken [as I am not a specialist in radio communication I need to translate this chapter very carefully in details]. Interesting, that Soviet Baltic Navy HQ seemed to ignore secrecy of radiomessages during the first days of Winter war as submarines needed to reply to every message from HQ during their patrol missions and several submarines sent ~30 reply messages per day which was quite dangerous and could cause the easy detection of their location [so Finns could change transport routes].

Juha wrote:
AFAIK all Finnish sources mention two torpedo vanes were seen.

Well...Shch-324 launched one torpedo from 4 cables. There was some delay with launching after captain command, so torpedo missed and passed between Finnish transports.

Juha wrote:
Submerged subs quite seldom use their artillery.

I would say that submerged subs never used their artillery
But did you read my post carefully [you again quoted just fragment from the text] as I wrote the following:
Shch-324 did surface only partially [deckhouse became visible] and submerged again [without reply artillery fire, of course, in such situation]. Nevertheless, the version that Finnish patrol boats counterattacked submarine which opened reply fire from 45mm guns is also discussed quite often.

Juha wrote:
We had so few planes that the fate of every plane is known. No planes were lost.

Damage of Finnish hydroplane from submarine 45mm gun seems to be possible. About "few" planes - not very few [Finland used ~ 363 aircraft of all types during the Winter war]. As for fates - well, could you provide me with the info about fates of 9 Blackburn Ripon [IIRC Finland had 14 when the Winter war started and only 5 when the war came to end] and fates of 5 Junkers W-34 & K-43 [IIRC Finland had 5 when the Winter war started, 7 were delivered during the war and Finland had 7 when the war came to end]?

Juha wrote:
One more or less allied transport ship sunken on its way from Finland to Germany and one none-existent enemy plane "shot down".
Do you know the merits mentioned at the other Soviet sub commanders the were nominated as HSU?

As for captain Tripolsky - the order from 07.02.1940 about his award with HSU star [and award of S-1 with the Red Banner order] mentioned that his submarine S-1 sank transport ship [yes, German in reality; but why was the ship name on board painted over and why did the ship not react on warnings and artillery fire - unclear] and shot down [as probability] enemy hidroplane [which existed in reality and two Finnish hydroplanes were driven away from submarine by artillery fire at least]. But that was not the main reason - the main reason was that Tripolsky could perform an extremelly dangerous patrol mission at strong ice and strong storm [do you forget about it?; AFAIK his experience of under-ice and through-ice submarine navigations during Winter war was analyzed and used quite often later] and could return back heavily damaged submarine to the home base; also the facts that S-1 avoided the ramming of Finnish gunboat [what is the exact name of it?] as well as Tripolsky was on the command bridge many hours [and he was heavily frostbitten] should be taken into consideration for sure. Anyway, Tripolsky can receive his award during WWII [as he organized 17000-miles transfer of his submarines from pacific to the North as well as landing operation against strongly defeated Japanese Port Arthur], so that was the right case.

IIRC 5 submarine commanders were awarded with Hero of USSR star for the Spanish Civil war and for Soviet-Finnish war [Tripolsky - S-1, Vershinin - Shch-311, Konyaev - Shch-324], and 19 submarine commanders were awarded during the Great Patriotic war [6 from those 19 didn't sink any enemy ships in reality, but performed combat missions as hundreds of other Soviet submarine captains].
http://www.town.ural.ru/ship/means/herois.php3 [the list of submariners, Heroes of USSR] - 29 names as several of them were awarded in many years after WWII [some - postmortem].
Several submarine commanders got their HSU Stars during WWII for such feats of arms the heroism or importance of which is very unclear for me indeed. Several other Soviet submarine commanders who were awarded with that highest degree performed many combat missions, sank several enemy transports each and avoided a lot of unsuccessful anti-submarine attacks, so they were awarded very correctly, of course.

Sorry, no time for further answers, need to go.....
Best regards, BP

[Juha Tompuri]

PS. Additional info about the use of Soviet submarines during the Winter war:
*Small submarine M-77 - 04.01.1940 it was attacked by Finnish airplane when submarine crossed ice blocks off Kalbadagrund. Finnish pilot opened MG fire and then dropped bomb [but missed]. M-77 was pressed by ice and couldn't perform manoeuvring, also its MG and 45mm gun were frozen and couldn't fire. Only in 22 min 45mm gun was warmed and submariners drove the Finn away.

7th of Dec-40 a Finnish Blackburn Ripon dropped a depth charge against a Soviet sub East of Suursaari/Hogland. No effects noticed. Depth charges were dropped that rarely during Winter War, that most probably it's the same event.

Book Suomen Ilmavoimat II 1928-40 (Finnish AF...) by Keskinen, Partonen and Stenman writes the following:

7th Jan-40
Very cold weather temperature below minus 40 degrees centigrade....One Ripon of LLv 36 carrying out a scouting sortie over the Gulf of Finland observed a submarine on the surface. Both opened fire and when the Russian (!, JT) submerged, the Finns dropped one (and only, JT) depth charge 40m aside with no inflictions. From the Russian sources was learnt that the boat was N-77 (M-77, JT) which escaped without any damage

PS2. Small submarine M-79 was attacked by Finnish battleship of coastal defence "Väinämöinen" [which tried to ram the Soviet submarine in neutral waters] in September 1938. M-79 just could dive. That accident almost became the international conflict between two countries more than one year before Winter war started. As Morozov mentioned - "that case was put into the box of back-to-back insults between two countries".

Never heard.
Can you give us more exact time and location?

During September 1938 there was a naval PR-tour at the Finnish coastal cities and a (?) Naval exercise.
As I dont believe in any deliberate attempt of ramming, perhaps (if such "close call" ever acually happened) the Soviet sub was spying the Finnish exercise and got in the middle of action where it reported as " escaped from ramming".
Who was the M-79 commander who reported about that?

Here a videoclip of the 1938 tour and exercise: http://www.yle.fi/player/player.jsp?nam ... %2F02335_1#

Regards, Juha

[Juha Tompuri]

Russian "cable" might be slightly shorter

There is no such term as "Russian cable". Russian/Soviet Navy used sea cable identical to British [185.2 m] for sure, American cable is differ - 219.5 m. Some variations can be in modern yachting sport indeed [according to your link above]

Not modern, the traditional Russian.

I believe that both numbers and tonnage are important, but tonnage more.

Professor Platonov described in details [still not finish to translate this chapter] that tonnage is less important in the analysis of action of Soviet submarines at Black Sea [for example] where there were only a few enemy large tonnage targets. So comparison between numbers is much more important in the case of Soviet navies during WWII [but, of course, tonnage should be given always also]. As example...

... which would be more important, one 35000 brt ship or two 99 brt boats?

AFAIK all Finnish sources mention two torpedo vanes were seen.

Well...Shch-324 launched one torpedo from 4 cables. There was some delay with launching after captain command, so torpedo missed and passed between Finnish transports.

Is that info of yours from the official, sub commander or some..."educated guesses"?

Submerged subs quite seldom use their artillery.

I would say that submerged subs never used their artillery

I very much agree.

But did you read my post carefully [you again quoted just fragment from the text] as I wrote the following:
Shch-324 did surface only partially [deckhouse became visible] and submerged again [without reply artillery fire, of course, in such situation].

Yes I did.
And before that I had written:

According to Finnish sources the sub launched two torpedoes, and did surface only partially (crew inexperience after launch as the sub got lighter) and submerged again, before Finnish counter measures.
No artillery fire from the Soviet sub.

Nevertheless, the version that Finnish patrol boats counterattacked submarine which opened reply fire from 45mm guns is also discussed quite often.

The world is full of fantasies.

could you provide me with the info about fates of 9 Blackburn Ripon [IIRC Finland had 14 when the Winter war started and only 5 when the war came to end] and fates of 5 Junkers W-34 & K-43 [IIRC Finland had 5 when the Winter war started, 7 were delivered during the war and Finland had 7 when the war came to end]?

I'll try...
According to Meritoimintakoneet (Maritime aircraft) by Keskinen, Stenman, Niska (...and my calculations from that book)

http://www.apali.fi/kauppa/product_details.php?p=38
Finland had:
21 Ripons when the war started and 14 when the war ended.
1 Ju 34fa when the war started and as much when the war ended
4 Ju 43ka when the war started and 3 when the war ended

One more or less allied transport ship sunken on its way from Finland to Germany and one none-existent enemy plane "shot down".
Do you know the merits mentioned at the other Soviet sub commanders the were nominated as HSU?

As for captain Tripolsky - the order from 07.02.1940 about his award with HSU star [and award of S-1 with the Red Banner order] mentioned that his submarine S-1 sank transport ship [yes, German in reality; but why was the ship name on board painted over and why did the ship not react on warnings and artillery fire - unclear] and shot down [as probability] enemy hidroplane [which existed in reality and two Finnish hydroplanes were driven away from submarine by artillery fire at least]. But that was not the main reason - the main reason was that Tripolsky could perform an extremelly dangerous patrol mission at strong ice and strong storm [do you forget about it?

Yes, I forgot that just surviving can be counted as a merit.

IIRC 5 submarine commanders were awarded with Hero of USSR star for the Spanish Civil war and for Soviet-Finnish war [Tripolsky - S-1, Vershinin - Shch-311, Konyaev - Shch-324]

Vershinin...one enemy ship destroyed in Finland and one Swedish ship sunken in Sweden.
Konyaev...his aim wasn't quite correct...but one Finnish ship sank "because of him"
AFAIK examples of one of the easiest ways to earn the highest decorations of a nation during the WWII?

Regards, Juha

[Seppo Koivisto]

Four Ripons were shot down during Winter War:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/46825/me ... War+losses
Other Ripon losses during Winter War:
RI-132, 136, 142, 159 destroyed in flying accidents
RI-135 burned by retreating troops two days after the war
RI-121, 151, 153 damaged in flying accidents

[Juha Tompuri]

Four Ripons were shot down during Winter War:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/46825/me ... War+losses
Other Ripon losses during Winter War:
RI-132, 136, 142, 159 destroyed in flying accidents

Thanks for the correction.

Finland had:
21 Ripons when the war started and 14 when the war ended.

Should then be (if I didn't mistake at my calculations at the other figure too)
Finland had :
21 Ripons when the war started and 13 when the war ended

A link about the sinking of Gustloff:
http://www.turunsanomat.fi/sunnuntai/?t ... :0:0:0:0:0:

here another, Finnish language too: http://www.suomensotilas.fi/nettisotila ... tloff.html
Index: http://www.suomensotilas.fi/nettisotila ... kisto.html

Regards, Juha

[Juha Tompuri]

The ship sunk on Dec 28th was the Finnish tanker "Sigrid";.

Sigrid did not sink (wasn't even damaged?)

The story about the "Vesihiisi" being exhibited as "U-17, the scourge of the seas" is known, but IIRC it took place in London and one of the Finnish naval officers who visited it there had served on "Vesihiisi." (In other words, the story makes such a good anecdote that it's almost too good to be true - which doesn't mean that it has to be untrue.)

It was Belgium, IIRC at Antwerpen.
http://users.tkk.fi/~jaromaa/Navygaller ... arines.htm
http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/9808/01/ubat2.html Arvi Putus, a Finnish submariner interviewed at a Swedish newspaper about the sinking of the Soviet submarine S-7 by Vesihiisi

Regards, Juha

[BIGpanzer]

Sorry, still no time for detailed answers/notes/corrections on previous posts :roll:

I.

Janne wrote:
The ship sunk on Dec 28th was the Finnish tanker "Sigrid"

Juha wrote:
Sigrid did not sink (wasn't even damaged?)

Damaged but not sank.
I've written earlier:

28.12.1939 Shch-311 detected transport near Vasa [Finns didn't expect Soviet submarines there and all lighthouses worked] and attacked it by artillery fire [67 45mm shells during 1 hour - several explosions, many hits and lowering of life boat were detected but damaged ship still tried to change course and avoid submarine, moving through the floating ice - Shch-311 stopped pursuit in ice soon] - Russian sources mention that was German transport "Siegfried" but German historian Rohwer believes that was Finnish tanker "Sigrid"/1224 brt [captain of Shch-311 Vershinin also wrote in the report that he saw ship flag very similar to Finnish].

Additional info I could find about that event: Shch-311 detected unknown ship near Vasa around midnight, ship moved towards Finland having course crossed the course of Shch-311 and all ship lights were turned off. Shch-311 increased speed and opened fire from nose gun in 8 min [distance 10-12 cables]. Ship didn't stop and, already crossed the course of submarine, moved towards lighthouse Norrsher. Soviet submariners detected many hits, strange white flashes on ship board and lowering/knocking by shell(?) of life boats. Strange, that ship, which passed lighthouse, unexpectedly change course a lot and moved to the east again, soon it reached the area of floating ice. Shch-311 passed behind the stern of the ship and continued artillery fire from two guns already [67 45mm shells were fired during near one hour]. Despite the visible trim, ship was still afloat and moved the same course. Shch-311 continued to pursue the ship, manoeuvring between the ice blocks, but stopped pursuit soon. Traditionally the ship is described as German transport "Siegfrid" but several historians [including German] correct that that was Finnish motor tanker "Sigrid", 1224 brt. Captain Vershinin saw flag, very similar to Finish, and signalmen from Shch-311 reported that was Finnish flag for sure ["white flag with blue cross"]. But the ship wasn't sunk [only heavily(?) damaged].

I think that was Finnish "Sigrid" not German "Siegfrid", too -
http://users.tkk.fi/~jaromaa/Navygaller ... winter.htm
http://www.mareud.com/Timelines/1939-1945.htm

II.

Janne wrote:
"Wilpas" tried to flee the sub but run aground on a rock, the crew evacuated the ship, which was shot up the following day by the Soviet sub.

The same submarine (Shch-311) detected another ship soon, Shch-311 set parallel course and opened fire at 04:48 [29.12.1939] - 140 45mm shells were used. In 45 min ship decreased speed, moved towards lighthouse Norrsher and run aground. Shch-311 launched the torpedo which broke ship in half. Only bridge and focsle were visible above the water, that was Finnish steamer "Wilpas", 775 brt [transported corn from Swedish port Malme to Basa].

Shch-311 sank one more ship during that mission - Swedish steamer "Fenris", 484 brt [captain Vershinin saw white lines on board - mark of Swedish merchant ship; he waited when the ship reached the blockade zone (submariners had the order to possible use armament without preliminary warnings only inside blockade zone) but it is not very clear was the ship reached it or not]. At 14:40 Shch-311 opened warning artillery fire but steamer didn't stop for inspection ["Fenris" performed navigation between two Swedish ports], so direct artillery fire was opened and "Fenris" caught fire quickly. Its crew used life-boats. Shch-311 launched torpedo but it unexpectedly change course and passed in front of the ship nose. Abandoned and heavily damaged ship run aground near lighthouse Süderostbrotten, Shch-311 shelled the ship near one hour [127 shells were used] until the ship sank.
10.01.1940 Shch-311 returned to Libava [several illuminators of deck-house were lost during strong storm on the way back]. All crewmembers were awarded with medals and orders, the commander of submarine division captain-lieutenant A. Orel [he was on board during the mission] was awarded with Lenin Order, and commander of Shch-311 F. Vershinin was awarded with Hero of USSR Star. 07.02.1940 Shch-311 was awarded with the Red Banner Order.

PS. Shch-311 during Great Patriotic war.
23.06.1941-15.07.1941 - combat mission [commander - captain-lieutenant P. Sidorenko] SW off Is. Gotska-Sanden and Gotland. 25.06. [02.31, 58.52'/21.50'6"] it was unsuccessfully attacked by German submarine U-145 [1 torpedo missed]. Shch-311 detected Swedish ships/convoys 13 times [28.06, 29.06, 01.07, 02.07, 05.07], but didn't attack.

27.09.-18.10.1941 - combat mission [to prevent possible breakthrough of German warships to Kronshtadt], W off Is. Gogland. No detection of enemy ships.

09.11.-24.11.1941 - combat mission, Is. Eland - Is. Gogland - Is. Rodsher - lighthouse Hoborg. 15.11.1941 - detected single transport [lights were turned on], attacked it four times [04:43, 05:07, 05:23, 05:38] but all four torpedos missed [passed below the ship, changed the course]; Shch-311 opened artillery fire from both 45mm guns then [05:53-05:57, 20 shells, distance 3.5 cables], ship turned lights off, smoked after several hits and moved towards seashore. At 05:56 Swedish coastal battery opened fire [4 shells], so Shch-311 dived. Soviet captain noticed using periscope that transport ran aground in the point 56.51'/16.53' [several sources mention that was ex-Soviet steamer "Estirand", 4444 brt]. 17.11.1941 - storm damaged stern diving planes, so captain decided to return back to the base.

24.05.1942 - nose part was damaged by artillery shell during stay in Leningrad.

10.10.1942 - started combat mission [commander - captain 3rd rank A. Pudyakov]. 12.10 [00:00] Shch-311 dived and started run between Is. Gotland and Is. Eland. No radiomessages were received from submarine after that [it didn't reply 19.10 and 20.10.] and it didn't return to the base [Kronshtadt], 39 men were lost. 14.10. Finnish radiostation informed about detection of Soviet submarine 9 miles NW off lighthouse Pakri [that could be Shch-311, Shch-302 or S-13].
Possible reasons of loss - explosion on mine between 12.10.-15.10.1942 [mine fields "Seeigel", "Nashorn" or "Juminda"] or sinking by depth charges from Finnish patrol boats VMV-13 and VMV-15 12.10.1942 SW off lighthouse Tiiskeri.
Taras and Shirokorad support the last version [Finnish patrol boats], Platonov describes both as very possible [mine or Finnish patrol boats], according to Morozov and http://www.deepstorm.ru "Finnish version" is unlikely because in that case submarine needed to cross long way between Is. B. Tuters and lighthouse Tiiskeri less than 1 day [dived at 00:00 at East Gogland reach and possibly attacked by Finnish patrol boats in the evening the same day SW Tiiskeri].

PS2. As for S-7 [commander S. Lisin] which was torpedoed by "Vesihiisi" 21.10.1942, we've already discussed this a lot. I found several online articles [on Russian, need to translate when I will have time] which discuss the possibilities that Finnish intelligence service knew the routes of Soviet submarines and positions where they charge batteries, so Finnish submarines waited there. 21.10. Lisin sent single radiomessage RDO#0400 to the base in time ["Crossed the Gulf of Finland using 1st variant of the route, entered Baltic Sea, crossed west longtitude 22."]. It is discussed that Finnish radiooperators hardly could take a bearing of S-7 using this radiomessage [as it was very short], and there are no data in Finnish sources that Finns intercepted this radiomessage and sent the info about Soviet submarine to "Vesihiisi" [according to another source - captain of "Vesihiisi" said to captured Lisin that they waited S-7 but two hours later]. It is discussed that Finnish submarines had very advantageous situation - Soviet submarines could be detected during their dangerous and long route through the mine fields and German/Finnish anti-submarine defense and such info could be given directly to Finnish submarines, also Finnish submariners used their usual positions whereas Soviet submariners got tired and stressed a lot till they reached Aland Sea and the possibility for technical and tactical mistakes were much higher for Soviets in that case. So it is still unclear for me did Finnish captain wait S-7/have info about it or not [AFAIK that radiomessage was intercepted, nevertheless]?
One article mentions that Soviet submariners planned their missions very carefully according to the known info about German and Finnish ant-submarine defense and captain could change the routes during missions. Interesting mention that when Finnish transport "Pohjanlahti" was sunk by artillery fire from S-7 05.08.1942 - Lisin noted the case in the hands of Finnish captain in life-boat and ordered him to go to the submarine [the map of mine-fields was found in the case among civil ship documents].

According to Lisin memoires [he became associated professor and Dr. of naval sciences in 1950s] - he and 3 crewmembers of S-7 were thrown from the bridge into the water by torpedo explosion, soon he heard Finnish speech from the submarine nearby and Finns took him out from the water by metal hook as he almost couldn't move in cold water already.
Lisin performed 5 combat missions [90 days] on S-7 in 1941-1942: performed 9 torpedo attacks [12 torpedos] and sank 5 ships [8482 brt - Swedish "Margareta"/1272 brt 09.07.1942 by 1 torpedo, Swedish transport "Lulea"/5611 brt 11.07.1942 by 2 torpedos and German transport "Kathe"/1599 brt by 1 torpedo] + Finnish transport "Pohjanlahti"/682 brt 05.08.1942 by artillery fire [380 45mm shells]; Lisin received his Hero of USSR Star [order from 23.10.1942] when he returned home after Finnish prison. He served in Pacific in 1945-1948, then at Baltic again [captain 1st rank], worked as lecturer at Naval Submarine Academy in Leningrad since 1950s.
http://blokada.otrok.ru/library/burov/phb/236.jpg [captain-lieutenant S. Lisin, 1909-1992]

http://www.duel.ru/199835/?35_6_3 [letter from the graduate of Naval Submarine Academy, who knew Lisin personally, to newspaper "Duel", 1998] - briefly: he mentioned that Lisin was an extremelly modest man and seldom told about his fate in enemy prison, but cadets tried to ask him about WWII often. Lisin said that he was transferred to Germany to meet with Vlasov and Hitler, there were many provocations from Finns and Germans as well as a lot of proposals to collaborate. Also he was arrested by NKVD and strictly checked when he returned back home. Lisin mentioned that Swedish, Finnish and German newspapers published his false photos together with "Finnish and German friends" and faked pamphlets and calls of "Soviet captain Lisin to Soviet sailors", which he never signed in reality. Lisin told that he presented himself as submarine boatswain at first but Finns showed him his photo of submarine commander as well as info from their intelligence service. When Soviet government saw those enemy newspapers they proclaimed Lisin as national traitor and Germans used this fact, trying to establish the collaboration with Lisin. He mentioned that Germans asked Finns many times to give him them, but Finns refused and he was transferred to Germany only for 1 month. But Lisin didn't become a traitor despite of chantage, threats and promises. Finns gave Lisin back in the end of 1944 and he was immediately arrested by NKVD, but checks demonstrated that he never was a traitor, and all Finnish and German documents about his "collaboration" were just enemy falsifications. He was introduced to Stalin who ordered to award him with the captain 1st rank [Lisin was captain-lieutenant before] and after the meeting with Stalin he was drived to studio for new officer uniform immediately....

Regards, BP

[Juha Tompuri]

Sorry, still no time for detailed answers/notes/corrections on previous posts :roll:

I.

Janne wrote:
The ship sunk on Dec 28th was the Finnish tanker "Sigrid"

Juha wrote:
Sigrid did not sink (wasn't even damaged?)

Damaged but not sank.
I've written earlier:

28.12.1939 Shch-311 detected transport near Vasa [Finns didn't expect Soviet submarines there and all lighthouses worked] and attacked it by artillery fire [67 45mm shells during 1 hour - several explosions, many hits and lowering of life boat were detected but damaged ship still tried to change course and avoid submarine, moving through the floating ice - Shch-311 stopped pursuit in ice soon] - Russian sources mention that was German transport "Siegfried" but German historian Rover believes that was Finnish tanker "Sigrid"/1224 brt [captain of Shch-311 Vershinin also wrote in the report that he saw ship flag very similar to Finnish].

Additional info I could find about that event: Shch-311 detected unknown ship near Vasa around midnight, ship moved towards Finland having course crossed the course of Shch-311 and all ship lights were turned off. Shch-311 increased speed and opened fire from nose gun in 8 min [distance 10-12 cables]. Ship didn't stop and, already crossed the course of submarine, moved towards lighthouse Norrsher. Soviet submariners detected many hits, strange white flashes on ship board and lowering/knocking by shell(?) of life boats. Strange, that ship, which passed lighthouse, unexpectedly change course a lot and moved to the east again, soon it reached the area of floating ice. Shch-311 passed behind the stern of the ship and continued artillery fire from two guns already [67 45mm shells were fired during near one hour]. Despite the visible trim, ship was still afloat and moved the same course. Shch-311 continued to pursue the ship, manoeuvring between the ice blocks, but stopped pursuit soon. Traditionally the ship is described as German transport "Siegfrid" but several historians [including German] correct that that was Finnish motor tanker "Sigrid", 1224 brt. Captain Vershinin saw flag, very similar to Finish, and signalmen from Shch-311 reported that was Finnish flag for sure ["white flag with blue cross"]. But the ship wasn't sunk [only heavily(?) damaged].

I think that was Finnish "Sigrid" not German "Siegfrid", too -
http://users.tkk.fi/~jaromaa/Navygaller ... winter.htm
http://www.mareud.com/Timelines/1939-1945.htm

II.

Janne wrote:
"Wilpas" tried to flee the sub but run aground on a rock, the crew evacuated the ship, which was shot up the following day by the Soviet sub.

The same submarine (Shch-311) detected another ship soon, Shch-311 set parallel course and opened fire at 04:48 [29.12.1939] - 140 45mm shells were used. In 45 min ship decreased speed, moved towards lighthouse Norrsher and run aground. Shch-311 launched the torpedo which broke ship in half. Only bridge and focsle were visible above the water, that was Finnish steamer "Wilpas", 775 brt [transported corn from Swedish port Malme to Basa].

AFAIK (according to P-O Ekman etc.) Wilpas and Sigrid travelled together from Örnskölsdvik to Vaasa/Vasa. Wilpas was loaded with wheat and Sigrid with gasoline.
After passing the lightship Sydostbrotten 0300 they headed to direction Norrskär. Soon after that an enemy sub opened artillery fire against them. The Finnish ships tried to reach the protective arhipelago by zig-zagging. Sigrid managed to get away (AFAIK no damages?) but Wilpas became the target of the SC-311 and when steaming away from the SC-311 got lost from the route at the darkness and 0425 ran aground South of Norrskär. After that the sub destroyed the steamer.
http://users.tkk.fi/~jaromaa/Navygaller ... winter.htm
http://www.hylyt.net/hylky.jsp?id=wilpas (in Finnish)

Shch-311 sank one more ship during that mission - Swedish steamer "Fenris", 484 brt [captain Vershinin saw white lines on board - mark of Swedish merchant ship; he waited when the ship reached the blockade zone (submariners had the order to possible use armament without preliminary warnings only inside blockade zone) but it is not very clear was the ship reached it or not]. At 14:40 Shch-311 opened warning artillery fire but steamer didn't stop for inspection ["Fenris" performed navigation between two Swedish ports], so direct artillery fire was opened and "Fenris" caught fire quickly. Its crew used life-boats. Shch-311 launched torpedo but it unexpectedly change course and passed in front of the ship nose. Abandoned and heavily damaged ship run aground near lighthouse Süderostbrotten, Shch-311 shelled the ship near one hour [127 shells were used] until the ship sank.

AFAIK all this took place at Swedish territorial waters?
According to: http://www.faktaomfartyg.se/kalmarsund_IX_1909.htm there were no warning shots.
According to: http://hem.passagen.se/staste/pang.html Fenris stopped it's engines when the shelling started and tried to contact the sub, but in vain.

10.01.1940 Shch-311 returned to Libava [several illuminators of deck-house were lost during strong storm on the way back]. All crewmembers were awarded with medals and orders, the commander of submarine division captain-lieutenant A. Orel [he was on board during the mission] was awarded with Lenin Order, and commander of Shch-311 F. Vershinin was awarded with Hero of USSR Star. 07.02.1940 Shch-311 was awarded with the Red Banner Order.

Do you know to what merits the awards were based at?

Regards, Juha

[Harri]

Four Ripons were shot down during Winter War:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/46825/me ... War+losses
Other Ripon losses during Winter War:
RI-132, 136, 142, 159 destroyed in flying accidents
RI-135 burned by retreating troops two days after the war
RI-121, 151, 153 damaged in flying accidents

RI-143 (shot down by Soviet fighters on 6.12.1939 at Ägläjärvi) and RI-141 (missed on 19.12.1939 at Suojärvi area, crashed plane was found in 1943) were planes of the Flying Squadron 16 (LLv.16) which operated on Lake Ladoga and north from Lake Ladoga only. Also JU-126 which was shot down by Soviet fighters at Salla, Lapland on 14.12.1939 belonged to the same squadron. One flight operated in the north. These cases have nothing to do with naval battles.

RI-155 was shot down by Soviet fighters (which also shot the bailed out pilot) near Pakri island on Estonian coast on 23.12.1939. Plane belonged to Flying Squadron 36 (LLv.36). Finland had a total of 26 Ripons of which only one had been destroyed before the Winter War (RI-158).

Which was the fourth shot down Ripon? I can only see from my records that LLv.36 lost two planes.

After initial losses Finns started flying mostly night time and the battle losses decreased. IIRC during the Winter War depth charges used were smaller than the ones used during the Continuation War. Ripons used also ordinary bombs which were occasionally dropped to Suursaari island (secondary target if the primary target could not be bombed).

----

The exact numbers of aircraft are a bit tricky because for example damaged planes were repaired in several places: in a squadron, in a field depot, in a Finnish Air Force depot and in the State Aircraft Factory. In some cases planes remained in the records of squadron even if they were elsewhere or damaged beyond repairs until were scrapped or ordered for repairs. Sometimes this took several months. If a squadron had such a plane it was mentioned as non-operational ("not in working order") together with the planes in overhaul or in need of some minor repairs only. Statistics must be red carefully.

On 1.12.1939 Finland had a total of 301 aircraft (of which 114 combat and 106 non-combat planes in working order) and on 15.3.1940 409 (134 combat + 91 non-combat). 58 planes were written off from inventory during the Winter War and after it. During the Winter War State Aircraft Factory repaired a total of 145 planes! No wonder their producting of new planes suffered from the war a bit!

[Juha Tompuri]

Four Ripons were shot down during Winter War:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/46825/me ... War+losses
Other Ripon losses during Winter War:
RI-132, 136, 142, 159 destroyed in flying accidents
RI-135 burned by retreating troops two days after the war
RI-121, 151, 153 damaged in flying accidents

RI-143 (shot down by Soviet fighters on 6.12.1939 at Ägläjärvi) and RI-141 (missed on 19.12.1939 at Suojärvi area, crashed plane was found in 1943) were planes of the Flying Squadron 16 (LLv.16) which operated on Lake Ladoga and north from Lake Ladoga only. Also JU-126 which was shot down by Soviet fighters at Salla, Lapland on 14.12.1939 belonged to the same squadron. One flight operated in the north. These cases have nothing to do with naval battles.

RI-155 was shot down by Soviet fighters (which also shot the bailed out pilot) near Pakri island on Estonian coast on 23.12.1939. Plane belonged to Flying Squadron 36 (LLv.36). Finland had a total of 26 Ripons of which only one had been destroyed before the Winter War (RI-158).

Which was the fourth shot down Ripon? I can only see from my records that LLv.36 lost two planes.

Hmm...did I count the other figure wrong too...
According to the SIH 15
RI-131, RI-133, RI-139, RI-154 and RI-158 we lost before the war.
RI-143 , RI-141 , RI-155 and RI-130 were lost during the war http://www.network54.com/Forum/46825/me ... War+losses


Regards, Juha

[Janne]

I suppose I shouldn't post on some Saturdays, especially without notes - I humbly accept the kind corrections of all brainfades (which, however, didn't affect what I thought were the main points). OTOH although Ekman and Killinen agree it was in Belgium, I could swear I've read a version where it was London...

Re: S-2 - according to Ekman, the lighthouse keeper at Märket observed a sub with the marking "C 2" pass on the surface and dive, and moments later keeper Sjöblom heard an explosion and saw a pillar of smoke. This took place in mid-day, Jan 3th, 1940.

Re: Lisin - I haven't read about any propaganda documents using (fairly or unfairly) Lisin nor of the purpose for his visit to Germany being propaganda. According to Ekman, the Germans were interested in tactical information. Lisin later knew that the Soviets knew he had talked and he tried to correct this by behaving in a very aggressive anti-firendly manner in the officer POW camp in Köyliö.