Victories and losses of Soviet submarines during WWII

[Juha Tompuri]

BP,

C'mon, back to the topic.
With a quick Forum search you will find lots of more proper other threads where to unload your heart.

Regards, Juha

[varjag]

To BP's post 18/4 12.36am on the sinking of the Swedish s/s Fenris...

"Shch-311 and Swedish transport "Fenris" - detected 05.01.1939 [14:12, strong snowfall], captain of Shch-311 noticed Swedish white lines on board and name of the ship but there was no Swedish flag. Transport was detected outside the blockade zone so Soviet captain decided to wait and continued observation. When "Fenris" passed floating lighthouse Südostborotten, it changed course to the north unexpectedly [probably, its captain noted Soviet submarine] and increased speed, trying to disappear in snow. Shch-311 moved at it and fired warning shot [14:40], also submarine raised signal "Captain of the ship, came to us with the ship documents". "Fenris" didn't react and moved at full speed. Shch-311 fired the 2nd warning shot and raised signal "Stop immediately". "Fenris" raised Swedish flag but didn't decrease its speed. Shch-311 opened artillery fire again and "Fenris" stopped, but when submarine went closer Swedes gave the full speed again. Captain of Shch-311 ordered to open direct fire against transport from two 45mm guns. At 15:00 Swedes began to launch life-boats and Shch-311 ceased fire. Life-boats moved towards floating lighthouse and Shch-311 launched torpedo against abandoned ship from 4 cables [torpedo missed because of control device defect - unexpectedly changed course to the right]. At 15:29 artillery fire was opened again [1-1.5 cables], transport caught fire, capsized and sank at 16:34; 127 45mm shells were used during that accident."

Swedish reports of the sinking are at divergence with the reports from Shch-311 of which there are two;

Fenris
Datum: 5 januari 1940
Klockslag: 15.32 Time 15.32 (3.52pm)
Antal omkomna: 0 Casualties 0
Sänkt av: SC-311
Ubåtschef: Vershinin
Vapeninsats: Artillerield med 73 granater (Rounds fired 73)


Fartyget hade lastat i Stockholm för olika hamnar längs norrlandskusten. Vid middagstid den 5 januari 1940 befann man sig vid Sydostbrottens fyrskepp då man för om fartyget sikade en ubåt som plötsligt avgav kanoneld. På Fenris stoppades omedelbart maskinen. Svenska flaggan hissades varpå man signalerade mot ubåten att man stoppat för att invänta vidare order. Ubåten tycktes dock inte vara på prathumör varför eldgivningen fortsatte. På Fenris gavs då order om sjösättning av en livbåt varpå fartyget övergavs av besättningen. Sedan man rott livbåten 200 meter bort från fartyget träffades midskeppsbyggnaden av en granat som orsakade brand ombord. Efter en timmes rodd var man framme vid fyrskeppet varifrån man sedan kunde bevittna fartygets undergång.

The translation of this report reads:

"""The ship had loaded at Stockholm for various ports on the northern Swedish coastline. By midday Jan.5th 1940 the position was near 'Sydostbrotten' Lightship - when a submarine was sighted ahead of the ship, which suddenly opened artillery fire. The Swedish flag was hoisted and the submarine was signalled that Fenris has stopped engines and awaited further instructions. The submarine did not appear 'talkative' and the firing continued. Aboard the Fenris the order to launch a lifeboat was given - and the crew abandoned ship. After the life-boat had been rowed some 200 meters away from the shipthe midships deck-house received a hit that caused a fire on board. After an hours rowing the life-boat reached the Lightship, from which the crew could witness the sinking of their ship. (Fenris)""""
http://hem.passagen.se/staste/pang.html


The second report reads

"1940 01 05. På väg mellan Örnsköldsvik och Holmsund i närheten av Sydostbrottens fyrskepp upptäcks en ubåt utan nationalitetsbeteckningar, på några hundra meters avstånd. Ubåten börjar beskjuta FENRIS utan förvarning med sin kanon. Besättningen, tolv man och två kvinnor gick i livbåten. Beskjutningen fortsatte trots att livbåten låg emellan ubåten och FENRIS. Det brinnande fartyget drev på grund och sjönk. Även fyrskeppet var nära att träffas av beskjutningen, en ankarlanterna skadades. I den grova sjön som rådde tog det ca en timme för FENRIS besättning att ro till fyrskeppet. Där hämtades den av statsisbrytaren Atle och fördes till Holmsund. Enligt uppgifter var det den sovjetiska ubåten SC-311, befälhavare Vershinin, som sänkte FENRIS. En Sovjetisk förklaring till sänkningen var att FENRIS förde en last av engelska och franska vapen och ammunition till Finland”.

And in translation;

"""Under way between Örnsköldsvik and Holmsund near 'Sydostbrotten' Lightship a submarine is sighted in a distance of a few hundred meters. The submarine opens fire without warning with it's deck-gun. The crew, twelve men and two women abandon ship in the life-boat. The firing continued despite the life-boat being between the submarine and the Fenris. The burning ship drifted aground and sank. Even the Lightship came close to be hit during the cannonade, an anchoring signal-light was damaged. In the heavy seas prevailing, it took the crew about an hour to reach the Lightship.From there they were picked up by the State Ice-breaker 'Atle' and brought to Holmsund. According to reports it was the Soviet submarine SC-311, C/O Vershinin - that sank the Fenris.
A Soviet explanation for the sinking was that Fenris carried a cargo of British and French weapons and ammunition to Finland."""

http://www.faktaomfartyg.se/kalmarsund_IX_1909.htm

Rgds, Varjag

[Janne]

Re: Lisin - as long as he was of any interest to Finnish interrogators, he was their "guest" in Katajanokka (Helsinki). It wasn't until after he was considered to be "washed out" that he was transferred to the officer POW camp in Köyliö.

My opinions on the subject are quite irrelevant, but according to Ekman Lisin was fairly talkative, but told far from everything he knew or his interrogators wanted to know. It was during his visit to Germany that the Soviets learned - supposedly (through an agent or through radio intelligence or a leak) from the Germans in Tallinn - that he hadn't perished with his sub. According to Ekman, the Finns learned of this almost immediately (but he doesn't tell how, so it might be just an embellishment to the story).

Anyway, once in the camp in Köyliö, Lisin took an active part in organizing various types of "strike activity" and kangaroo courts against suspected collaborators etc. Ekman speculates that Lisin may have had as an ulterior motive a serious concern for improving his reputation.


Re: the other stuff - I find it is better to leave it all uncommented (as experience has shown discussion on the subjects to be quite futile and usually infuriating to all parties)

[Harri]

OK. No more off topic, except this one (sorry Juha & others).

BIGpanzer: you should not rely too much on Soviet/Russian sources as the ultimate truth especially concerning "conclusions" because they tend to be largerly different to the ones known in Finland (and can be also proven wrong).

As an example this very detailled book "As Finns in East Karelia" (1998) by Professor h.c. Gunnar Rosén (former Vice Secretary of the Finnish Red Cross) gives a totally different view to a Soviet propaganda concerning Finnish occupation in East Karelia (this page in Finnish only):
http://www.genealogia.fi/kauppa/kirja760.htm

The book handles most of the medical and also many other measures Finns did in East Karelia during the war and what is important it also tells how and why something was done. It was a very illustrative book even for me and once I started I couldn't stop reading it.

The book is based on Aarne Valle's earlier unpublished private archive and archive of the Finnish Red Cross. Dr.(Med.) Valle was the Medical Commander of the East Karelian Military Administration. His personal tragedy was that an East Karelian orphan boy he adopted had to be given back to USSR after the war. I think even this detail tells a lot.

It is possible that this book is published also in Swedish but I'm not sure about it. This book would be worth translating to English and Russian also.

Allright, back to the business and no more off topic.

[Juha Tompuri]

Thank you Varjag very much for clearing up the Fenris case.

Regards, Juha

[Juha Tompuri]

*S-1 [captain A. Tripolsky] attacked German transport "Bolheim"/3324 brt 10.12.1939 [3 torpedos missed, 100mm gun made 5 shots and jamed but steamer was sank with the use of 45mm guns (35 shells) during 1.5 h of manoeuvring] - despite the loss of the ship [cellulose and machines on board] and its 3 crewmembers including the captain, Germany didn't react.

What's your source for the cargo of the ship and that Germany did't react?

According to these sites:
http://www.hylyt.net/hylky.jsp?id=bolheim_1939 (finnish)
http://www.hylyt.net/kartta.jsp?kid=B3.HTM (map)
http://personal.inet.fi/koti/seppo.salonen/bolheim.htm (finnish)
http://personal.inet.fi/koti/seppo.salonen/suke_bol.htm (diving to the wreck, finnish)
Bolheim had timber (both inside the ship and on deck) as cargo and most probably the sub didn't see the ship sinking completely, as Bolheim partially floated because of it's cargo (hardly possible with machines as cargo) and sunk after Finninsh vessels had taken it under tow to more shallow waters.

P-O Ekman mentions that after the sinking of Bolheim, the German ambassador von der Schulenburg 14th December 1939 gave an official protest concerning to the sinking of Bolheim and shooting Olivia.

Regards, Juha

[BIGpanzer]

Lets stay in topic, of course. If I have time I will open the thread about Soviet-Finnish relations in 1920s-1930s, it will be interesting to discuss them
Again no time, so about "Astrid" and S-102 only.

Juha wrote:
Thanks for the info about the sub that sank Astrid.
The time of collision was 2150. 0800 you mentioned (source?) wasn't dark anymore.

You are welcome! My source - IIRC forum at http://www.deepstorm.ru . Also look here http://warsailors.com/forum/read.php?1, ... 1#msg-5091 [also the answer from Miroslav Morozov]
According to the info I could find - the time of collision was 08:00 pm [20:00] not 21:50. But my sources mention this as not exact but probable time, so 21:50 is possible.

Juha wrote:
According to "Vaarallisilla Vesillä" the Finnish vessel had "all navigational lights on". Perhaps it was the Soviet one travelling without lights?

OK, Juha starts old songs again Please, believe to "Vaarallisilla Vesillä", no problem; of course, Finnish sources can describe the event only in such way I believe much more that Soviet submarine had all lights on [newest submarine on state trials!, also military seamen should be much more disciplined than civil seamen (I even know what Juha will answer on this )]. The possibility that Finnish small vessel made a voyage without navigational lights was much higher and that was because of recent war conditions, most probably [or some kind of disorder of Finnish crew - is it possible?! ].

Observed and ordered to turn 1 min before hitting, at parallel course, ~10 knots speed difference (in favor to the Soviet sub) and couldn't avoid the collision???.
Siff fingers...jammed rudder???

If you know everything, my dear friend - why you are asking?
The black silhouette was noticed 1 min before collision, some seconds passed when the captain saw it and ordered to turn. Course wasn't parallel most probably [should be close to perpendicular in such situation], but speed of S-102 was high indeed [performed diesel engine tests]. I think that Finnish crewmembers either didn't see what happened in reality [did their signalman was on duty or sat inside the superstructure with other men, so the light [should it be considered as navigational?!] was visible because of opened door] or tried to hide the correct info because of possible compensation paid for ship owner or something like this.

Regards, BP

P.S.1. Additional info about Lisin - he was checked by NKVD in Podolsk during 2 months after he was released by Finns in October 1944. It was proved that Lisin didn't agree to collaborate with the Finns and Germans, tried to escape several times and once he refused to work in mine. Interesting, that Lisin had the info that he was awarded with the Hero of USSR in Finnish prison from one Soviet pilot [shot down and captured by Finns] who saw the photo of Lisin in newspaper in 1942 and recognized him in prison.
Other crewmembers [Olenin, Subbotin and Kunitsa] asked to send them to the front, which was allowed; they survived the war. S-7 was torpedoed during battery charge [which can be heard easily by Finns because of relatively silent weather and strong diesel sound]. 5 men from the command bridge were thrown into water by torpedo explosion - captain S. Lisin, navigator M. Khrustalev, signalman A. Olenin, artilleryman V. Subbotin [he was on the bridge as additional signalman] and mechanic V. Kunitsa [who was allowed to smoke on the bridge]. Navigator M. Khrustalev sank soon because of leather raglan, other 4 men [they had life jackets] found each other in the water and tried to reach Swedish lighthouse which was visible, but they were detected by Finnish submarine.

P.S.2 About accident with Marinesco. He returned back to submarine next day [there were no "several days of absence"] after accident in Finnish restaurant [Marinesco with another naval officer came to restaurant to meet with their friends from Soviet control commission, Marinesco reserved 6 places in restaurant but Soviet friends didn't come so he decided to invite Finnish officers nearby]. Juha was right that Marinesco and his friend met with two women there [but they were not Finnish prostitutes but Swedish restaurant proprietress and her Finnish friend]. So they had the rest during the whole night but next day Marinesco was found by doctor from his submarine and asked to return to the submarine depot ship immediately because of big problems. The big problem was the following: several crewmembers from Marinesco's submarine S-13 visited known Finnish sailors from nearby Finnish civil steamer to celebrate New Year's Eve, so big international company drank alcohol, then Finnish girls came and in some time the "international friendship" finished with big fight - Soviet boatswain got facer by bottle, Finnish sailor got reply facer and so on...Finnish captain called to Soviet commander of submarine division Orel [who was a very negative person according to memoires of submariners, very rough and envious; he made only one combat mission during the Winter war, was very proud of this event and never performed more combat missions during the Great Patriotic war]. Also Orel didn't like Marinesco very much. So Orel thought that was an excellent chance to punish popular between crewmembers "Romanian bandit" as he called Marinesco often. So Orel ordered to use platoon on duty from submarine depot ship "Smolny" to come to Finnish steamer and arrested all crewmembers from Marinesco's submarine there, also arrested Marinesco when he came back [so doctor from S-13 immediately began to look for Marinesco]. In addition Orel increased the conflict as much as possible as he called to Naval HQ and even to Helsinki [to Finnish administration and to Soviet commission] and said that two Soviet naval officers didn't return back to submarine. 01.01.1945 [08:00] Marinesco was on submarine during the rise of flag, and angry Orel shouted at him and his sailors with very dirty words. Marinesco punished the boatswain and two sailors who participated in fight with Finns with 20 days of arrest. Marinesco should be given to naval tribunal but all crewmembers aslked Naval HQ to allow to their commander to stay on board [additional bad case happened when several crewmembers came to Orel to ask for Marinesco - one of crewmembers was Finn/Karelian by nationality so Orel punched him on the nose and cried "I don't allow the Finnish bitch to defend the Romanian bitch, you are all enemy spies, I know!"]. Next day sailors from S-13 promised to Orel to wrote a complaint to HQ about that accident, and captain 1st rank Orel excused [in reality he thought about career a lot which could come to the end because of such bad cases, soon all sailors participated in fights with Finnish sailors as well as sailors who asked for Marinesco too much were sent to penalt battalion according to Orel's order]. After famous mission of S-13 [sinking "Wilhelm Gustloff" and "General Steuben"] Orel made additional ugly thing - don't ask Finnish ice-breaker to meet S-13 in the right point, so Marinesco made the underice/through the ice navigation alone during several hours.

Regards, BP

[Juha Tompuri]

Lets stay in topic, of course. If I have time I will open the thread about Soviet-Finnish relations in 1920s-1930s

Most probably no need as there most probably are such already existing.

... my sources mention this as not exact but probable time, so 21:50 is possible.

2150 is more than possible.

The black silhouette was noticed 1 min before collision, some seconds passed when the captain saw it and ordered to turn. Course wasn't parallel most probably [should be close to perpendicular in such situation], but speed of S-102 was high indeed [performed diesel engine tests].

The lucky Finnish survivors of the collision mentioned that the sub crew told them that their speed had been over 20 knots and their course to the ~West (Astrid had the course West-South-West, JT)

I think that Finnish crewmembers either didn't see what happened in reality

No, they didn't, the collision came from behind and thats why I asked about if the sub had travelled without lights.

or tried to hide the correct info

That type creativeness was not typical to Finnish sailors, but sometime as seen at this thread, did happen in case of Soviet subs.

Regards, Juha

[BIGpanzer]

Juha wrote:
The lucky Finnish survivors of the collision mentioned that the sub crew told them that their speed had been over 20 knots and their course to the ~West (Astrid had the course West-South-West, JT)

This is interesting info. But, of course, we are not sure for 100% did sub crewmembers tell Finns exact course [was it some kind of secret info or not, I don't know] and did collision take place during some change of course?
Over 20 knots? Hmm...maximal surface speed of "S" [IX-bis series] submarines was 19.4 knots. Anyway that means that submarine performed maximal speed tests and its control under such regime could be not easy, of course.

Juha wrote:
No, they didn't, the collision came from behind and thats why I asked about if the sub had travelled without lights.

The supposition that Finnish vessel had travelled without lights seems to be more possible [small civil vessel, recent war times black-outs of lights.....] than of submarine [warship, state trials....].

Juha wrote:
That type creativeness was not typical to Finnish sailors, but sometime as seen at this thread, did happen in case of Soviet subs.

I guess that type of creativeness was not very typical to Soviet submariners also [except Ivantsov, Travkin and a few others]. I guess that Finnish sailors also had such kind of "mavericks". Anyway the historians from both sides are more creative than simple sailors

About German transport "Bolheim" - about cargo it is easy to explain. I wrote [cellulose and machines on board] which is not absolutely correct as machines were transported during the direct voyage and cellulose was taken for return voyage from Finland to Germany. As for cellulose - almost all my sources [I need to find the links again as I posted about "Bolheim" several days ago already] on German, Polish and Russian mention the cargo as cellulose. I can suppose that timber and cellulose for paper production could be the same cargo in reality [or ship transported both products of Finnish wood industry].
About reaction of Germany - this is more hard. I couldn't find direct mentions in my German sources that Germany reacted on high official level about the accident with "Bolheim" [may be because ship had painted over names on board for some unknown reason?]. IIRC Polish sources said nothing about any reactions. Russian sources mentioned especially that Germany didn't react despite of sinking the ship and loss of 3 men [including captain] and possible reason of this - not to disturb quite good diplomatic relations between USSR and Germany in 1939. According to J. Meister -"Olivia" was shelled 05.12.1939 off Utö [3 45mm shells, no hits] until the ship nationality was identified by Soviet sub captain.

About Shch-311 and Swedish "Fenris" - I don't think that Swedes lied in their reports [thanks for the additional info, varjag] as well as Soviets lied also. Shch-311 detected the ship [with Swedish white lines on board but without flag] but didn't attack waiting until the ship reached the blockade zone. When ship changed the course [because of notice of submarine?] Shch-311 fired two warning shots [probably, Swedes didn't notice them because of snowy weather or vice versa thought that was direct bombardment already]. The most significant difference between reports [nevertheless, I didn't see the original report from Shch-311 or direct quotes from it in this case, only detailed descriptions of the event by http://www.deepstorm.ru and Shirokorad, which are mentioned as "according to sub commander version"] is the following: Swedes saw submarine ahead of their ship and Russians wrote that submarine pursued the "Fenris" which tried to disappear in snow fall, which makes the situation quite unclear.

Varjag wrote:
A Soviet explanation for the sinking was that Fenris carried a cargo of British and French weapons and ammunition to Finland.

Source for this claim? AFAIK most well-known Soviet sources [Dmitriev, for example] mentioned that "Fenris" transported barrels with fuel between Swedish ports but had the course to Finland when it was noticed by Shch-311.

Regards, BP

[Janne]

To Harri: FWIW I don't wish to be any kind of forum or OT police here, IMHO everyone is entitled to participate in and continue any discussion he finds interesting or enjoyable - I simply expressed a personal opinion and stated a personal policy.

To BP: according To the Swedish author Wilhem Agrell, captured Soviet radio messages revealed that the Soviets had exact and detailed (times. places) information about the Swedish escort and convoy system in late 1941. In Agrell's opinion the source must be fairly high up (because for instance ship captains would have been given only what they needed to know). Do the Russian authors tell more about the agent or his source?

Re: Lisin - it would appear that Lisin had a creative memory or that his account later underwent the not unusual "Hollywood rewrite"; officers weren't obliged to work - those who volunteered did and those who refused considered the others traitors - and there was no mine for Lisin to refuse to work in.

Re: Marinesko - it doesn't seem unlikely that the goings-on in Turku around New Year 1944 were observed by Finnish authorities (police, military, state police) and that there should be reports in the archives, but I don't think anyone has had occasion to look them up. (Anyway, we must sometimes give filmmakers and other artists their freedom from historical reality...)

[varjag]

@ B/P and re. s/s Fenris;
I do not know the source for the Soviet 'excuse of weaponry for Finland' but suggest that since Sweden was a neutral - it would stem from official sources in the Swedish Foreign Office which would have protested strongly against the rape of this little neutral steamer. Such a reply from Moscow - would have been perfectly in tune with the lies, half-truths and phantasmagoria - that emanated from the Kremlin at that time. It is highly likely that the s/s Fenris transported fuel in barrels for minor ports on the north Bothnia coast - as she was a very small vessel that could make ports - that did not have a railway connection. But - I have no details of her cargo - or her manifest to offer the forum, Varjag

[Juha Tompuri]

But, of course, we are not sure for 100% did sub crewmembers tell Finns exact course

Yes, to trust Soviet subcrew info or not.

No, they didn't, the collision came from behind and thats why I asked about if the sub had travelled without lights.

The supposition that Finnish vessel had travelled without lights seems to be more possible [small civil vessel, recent war times black-outs of lights.....] than of submarine [warship, state trials....]

IIRC there has been (several) cases earlier where a Soviet sub had attacked a freighter of a neutral state, sub crew claiming the target travelling with no lights, and the victims stating that their vessel being illuminated (and the attacker travelling without lights)

That type creativeness was not typical to Finnish sailors, but sometime as seen at this thread, did happen in case of Soviet subs.

I guess that type of creativeness was not very typical to Soviet submariners also [except Ivantsov, Travkin and a few others].

Yes they were the most (in)famous

About German transport "Bolheim" - about cargo it is easy to explain. I wrote [cellulose and machines on board] which is not absolutely correct as machines were transported during the direct voyage and cellulose was taken for return voyage from Finland to Germany. As for cellulose - almost all my sources [I need to find the links again as I posted about "Bolheim" several days ago already] on German, Polish and Russian mention the cargo as cellulose. I can suppose that timber and cellulose for paper production could be the same cargo in reality [or ship transported both products of Finnish wood industry].

No sources of the languages I read fluently, mention cellulose as cargo. One of the links I earlier posted mentions that there still being timber at the wreck.

ship had painted over names on board for some unknown reason

AFAIK that is only according to the Soviet based reports.
According to the Finnish sources the ship was offered a place at a Finnish escorted convoy, but the Bolheim captain rejected that option. Instead he believed more to the flag of swastika and travelled illuminated alone.

According to J. Meister -"Olivia" was shelled 05.12.1939 off Utö [3 45mm shells, no hits] until the ship nationality was identified by Soviet sub captain.

According to Finnish sources, one hit was acchieved. When Oliva (AFAIK) arrived to Mäntyluoto 7th Dec-39, the captain of the steamer asked the Finnish officials that the incident would not be used at propaganda purposes.

About Shch-311 and Swedish "Fenris" - I don't think that Swedes lied in their reports

Me neither.

Regards, Juha

[varjag]

It is interesting to check the maps and find that the Soviet 'blockade zone' extended to very close - if not into - Swedish territorial waters. The 'zone' claimed by the Soviet Union was within '20 miles' (I assume those to be Nautical Miles = 37 kilometers/23 land miles) of the Finnish coast. By the accepted sea-territorial conventions of that time Sweden only claimed a Three Nautical Miles (= 5,55 kilometers/3,47 land miles) territory outside her coast and the most distant islands and reefs not permanently covered by water. The Sydostbrotten shoals (Sydostbrotten means Southeast Breakers - denoting a shallow shoal where breakers will form in heavier seas) were in international waters, but marked by a Swedish Lightship, which consequently - was anchored in international waters,and - in the Soviet blockade zone. Yet the most navigable channel to the north was the Västra Kvarken (Western Kvarken) where the most easterly Swedish island was Bonden - which in turn, was just about within the 'zone' estimated from the nearest Finnish island - Valassaaret - that the Soviet Navy claimed as is 'blockade zone'.
With its 'fine feeling' for international niceties it seems to me as if Soviet naval Command had given a carte blanche to attack any shipping proceeding in those waters on the principle of 'shoot first - and no questions will be asked...' Varjag

[BIGpanzer]

Janne wrote:
According To the Swedish author Wilhem Agrell, captured Soviet radio messages revealed that the Soviets had exact and detailed (times. places) information about the Swedish escort and convoy system in late 1941. In Agrell's opinion the source must be fairly high up (because for instance ship captains would have been given only what they needed to know). Do the Russian authors tell more about the agent or his source?

I don't know about this at the moment. But I will try to make a search and if I find some info about this I will inform you for sure. I know only that Soviet submarines had the strict order to avoid any attacks of any ships in Swedish waters, and after several accidents with Swedish ships took place by mistake [and Swedish government protested] - to avoid any attacks of Swedish ships at all [IIRC I've already posted some info about the order dates somewhere above]. Me seems that Soviets didn't know everything about Swedish convoy system as I found many times the mentions that Soviet submarines met unexpectedly with Swedish transports so sub captains didn't attack after identification of Swedish flag.

Janne wrote:
....officers weren't obliged to work - those who volunteered did and those who refused considered the others traitors - and there was no mine for Lisin to refuse to work in.

It was the very short mention about that - may be Lisin didn't agree to work as volunteer at mine.....

Janne wrote:
Marinesko - it doesn't seem unlikely that the goings-on in Turku around New Year 1944 were observed by Finnish authorities (police, military, state police)...

Probably, yes. But more likely that those goings-on of Soviet naval officers were observed by Soviet NKVD agents also [as it was not allowed to have talks with Finnish population].

To Varjag:
As for Soviet blockade zone of Finnish coatal area [zone was declared 07?(08).12.1940]. Only 2 Soviet sub positions from 5 in the Gulf of Finland were located inside the blockade zone on 08.12.1940 - position No. 4 [off lighthouse Ussare - please correct me if the name transliteration is wrong] and No. 5 [off lighthouse Bengtsher]. Blockade zone covered the area from entry of Tornionioki river [North of Gulf of Bothnia] to meridian 23.5' in the Gulf of Finland. 11 Soviet submarines from 29 of Red Banner Baltic Sea Navy performed patrol missions in December 1939.
According to the order from Soviet Navy HQ: submarines and other warships were allowed to open fire without warnings if they find any ship inside the blockade zone [interesting, that several Soviet submarines had very small area for patrol, for example 10 x 10 miles only]. Submarines, operated outside the blockade zone, were only allowed to stop ships for inspection with a view to transportation of military cargos to Finland and to follow prize law - it was strictly prohibited for such subs to attack any ships without warning and sub ccommander should send inspection group to the ship [the reason of several accidents wasn't only that some of sub captains disobeyed order, but at least 1 submarine was informed wrong about the borders of blockade zone because of radiooperator mistake [Kronshtadt-Tallinn radiomessage], also several ships didn't stop after warning artillery shots/light signals]. IIRC only 1 ship from 5 sinking during the Winter war by Soviet subs was sank by torpedo, others - by surface artillery fire. Quite many Soviet patrol submarines noticed a lot of Swedish ships/convoys outside the blockade zone every day during the Winter war and their captains didn't attack of course, just counted Swedish ships.

Juha wrote:
Yes, to trust Soviet subcrew info or not.

Yes, in the case of talks with rescued Finnish sailors especially. Hard to believe that Finns were provided with the detailed info about specifications of newest submarine [speed over 20 knots, for example] as well as with excursion along its compartments P.S. The last one is joke [as most probably, Finns had no possibility to see submarine, of course]

Juha wrote:
IIRC there has been (several) cases earlier where a Soviet sub had attacked a freighter of a neutral state, sub crew claiming the target travelling with no lights, and the victims stating that their vessel being illuminated (and the attacker travelling without lights)

Most probably that almost all mentioned subs and frighters travelled without navigational lights during the war time [frighters to avoid possible attacks, subs - to avoid their detection during patrol missions]. Sub crews mentioned mainly that several ships didn't react on warnings or/and didn't have national flag.

Juha wrote:
According to Finnish sources, one hit was acchieved. When Oliva (AFAIK) arrived to Mäntyluoto 7th Dec-39, the captain of the steamer asked the Finnish officials that the incident would not be used at propaganda purposes.

Yes, "Oliva" [IIRC I wrote "Oliva" but you used "Olivia" one time and I believed to you ]. According to Russian sources I have - only 3 shells were fired at all, no hits as they were warning shots [Shch-323 of Ivantsov]. According to German sources I have -very light damages of hull because of 45mm shell fragments [close shell explosion in the front of the ship]. I've already mentioned that "Oliva" transported cargos to Finland but when the ship stopped after warning shots and German captain [who spoke Russian] came to sub board, Ivantsov didn't understand the ship documents on German/English and port of destination [Finnish Mäntyluoto], so he handshaked captain [who was afraid of inspection and didn't say the truth about port of destination] and released the ship.

Regards, BP

P.S. Does somebody know the exact name of Finnish gunboat which tried to ram S-1 24.12.1939? I've already mentioned that event when I posted the info about S-1 here. S-1 crossed at periscope depth South Kvarken and unexpectedly ran aground near Is. Merket. Patrol Finnish gunboat detected it and tried to ram but S-1 could get afloat and dodged the Finnish attack at the supreme moment.

[Juha Tompuri]

IIRC only 1 ship from 5 sinking during the Winter war by Soviet subs was sank by torpedo

...but most of them were tried to sink with torpedoes.
Also only 1 ship from 5 sinking during Winter War by Soviet subs was an enemy one.

Yes, to trust Soviet subcrew info or not.

Yes, in the case of talks with rescued Finnish sailors especially. Hard to believe that Finns were provided with the detailed info about specifications of newest submarine [speed over 20 knots, for example]

Sometimes the truth can be hard.

[as most probably, Finns had no possibility to see submarine, of course]

The rescued crew were taken by the sub to Kronstadt. There is no mention they being blindfolded.

IIRC there has been (several) cases earlier where a Soviet sub had attacked a freighter of a neutral state, sub crew claiming the target travelling with no lights, and the victims stating that their vessel being illuminated (and the attacker travelling without lights)

Most probably that almost all mentioned subs and frighters travelled without navigational lights during the war time

The freighters mentioned travelled illuminated, tried to identify themselves to the sub, as they had nothing to hide.
Here one example of some differences between the reports:

The steamboat “Kassari” had transported cargo (conserved food stuff) to Sundsvall (Sweden) and departed the harbour of Sundsvall 7 December 2 PM heading back to Tallinn.

The captain of the ship Alfred Sergo estimated that at the moment of the attack 10 December 3.50 AM the ship’s position was: latitude 59°26’ N; longitude 21°48’ towards Ost. It was clear night. The ship’s lights were on.

The first mate Hans Sergo (the father of the captain), who was on watch, and the steerman Albert Press said that at this moment an unknown ship sent a morse signal with flash. It was short and it wasn't understood. After that machine gun fire followed – about 10 short bursts. Then an artillery shot which penetrated the fore of the ship. The second shot hit the engine room at the surface of the water and water started to pour in. The shell didn’t explode. After that one of the crewmembers Johannes Proos pulled up the Estonian national flag. Proos estimated that because of the ship’s lights the attacker had to definitely recognize the flag. The third shell hit the saloon on the back deck.

After that the attacker continued to shoot about 5 shots in a minute while making circles around the target. At the same time also machine gun fire was targeted towards the ship. When passing the fore and rear of “Kassari” the attacker didn’t shoot. While passing the fore the attacker was only about 3–4 meters away from the target and human figures were seen on the submarine. Proos yelled in English and German that they are an Estonian ship. Proos’ neighbour heard how after that on the submarine it was repeated the word “Estonia”.

The shooting continued about 20 minutes. It was dark and the attacker had to shoot at random. The captain of the ship collected his crew to the lifeboats. One of the boats was hit and therefore couldn’t be used but the second was usable. Proos estimated that the attackers didn’t notice this lifeboat because of its dark colour while the lifeboat which recieved hits was white. When the crew started to release the lifeboat, machine gun fire was directed at them. 9 out of the 10 crewmembers entered the boat while tenth – Georg Randman – was before this hit and was left to the ship after the captain had estimated that he is dead. When departing the ship the lifeboat was fired from machine gun and the first mate was wounded from his arm and the heater from his leg. The attacker’s lights were at first not on; after “Kassari” had sunk two electric lights and a torch were lighted on the submarine.

The lifeboat rowed towards SO. After about one or two hours (nobody had watch) about one mile away two ships were seen with part of their lights on. It was guessed that the attackers were searching for survivors. The lifeboat reached the coast of island Hiiumaa 10 December 6 PM. The wounded were placed into hospidal in Kärdla. The lifeboat contained 11 shellsplinters and besides this bullet marks in its body.

All the crew members who survived were then questioned by the order of the commander of the Estonian Navy.

Alfred and Hans Sergo were together with their families deported in June 1941 to the Kirov oblast. Hans and his wife died because of hunger in 1942–1943.

Reigo,
Many thanks for the translation of the relevant parts from the original.
http://www.maaleht.ee/?old_rubriik=4359 ... 2&old_num=

About Shch-323 - 10.12.1939 submarine detected single ship ["Kassari", 379 brt], and Soviet captain decided to stop it and inspected. "Kassari" didn't respond, switched off lights and increased speed. Shch-323 immediately opened fire from the stern gun and fired 160 shells during 1,5 hours. "Kassari" sank 20 miles from the southern border of blockade zone. 1 sailor was killed during artillery bombardment, and 2 sailors were wounded by MG fire when they were in life-boat already. Life-boat reached Hiuma, so Estonian newspapers as well as Soviet Baltic Navy HQ found the truth very quickly. Soviet Baltic Navy HQ investigated the case very carefully and deputy commander of Baltic Sea Navy V. Alafuzov named this case as "wild and brutal event, discedited the honor of Russian and Soviet naval officer" and asked to judge senior lieutenant F. Ivantsov [commander of Shch-323] as much strict as possible. Ivantsov denied the accident during the talks with naval interrogation officer and it was "recommended" to Baltic HQ to forget about this case and awarded Ivantsov with the order of Red Star even [during WWII Ivantsov became quite successful submarine commander indeed and Shch-314 became the first Baltic submarine awarded with Red Banner order

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... c&start=75

Yes, "Oliva" [IIRC I wrote "Oliva"

Did you?

08.12.1939 Shch-323 found German transport "Oliwa" [which transported military cargos to Finland inofficially [as civil cargos], so that was correct target if Ivantsov investigated the transport. Shch-323 signalized by searchlight several times but "Oliwa" didn't react [probably, that was one of the reason that Ivantsov prefered to signalize only one time in the case of "Kassari" and then immediately opened fire], so four shells from 45mm gun were fired until transport stopped.

emphasis on mine
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... &start=105

P.S. Does somebody know the exact name of Finnish gunboat which tried to ram S-1 24.12.1939? I've already mentioned that event when I posted the info about S-1 here. S-1 crossed at periscope depth South Kvarken and unexpectedly ran aground near Is. Merket. Patrol Finnish gunboat detected it and tried to ram but S-1 could get afloat and dodged the Finnish attack at the supreme moment.

As with Väinämöinen trying to ram a Soviet sub, never read about that claimed ramming too.

Regards, Juha