Victories and losses of Soviet submarines during WWII

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walter leotta
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Post by walter leotta » 22 Mar 2007 17:50

Sure! My mail is replay to your old mail about soviet subs activity and others subs fleets. Tomorrow I send you news about MAS 571... If i find it

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Juha Tompuri
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Post by Juha Tompuri » 22 Mar 2007 19:47

BIGpanzer wrote: Very correct. Small notes -
2. Torpedo miss of Swedish transport "Ulla" [why "Anna"?] the same day [~12.00] near Is. Bogskär [Swedish transport rescued crewmembers from "Argo"].
My mistake, I red Ulla, but wrote Anna
BP wrote:5. Additional info - 01.07.1942: unsuccessfully attacked Swedish transport "Galeon" near Is. Aland, Swedish destroyer "Ehrensköld" tried to attack Soviet submarine.
According to P-O Ekman, it was ShCh-406 there.
BP wrote:7. Additional info - 06.07.1942 was attacked by Swedish destroyer "Nordenskjöld" [12.31; 2 miles SE of lighthouse Hegby, Is. Aland]
Any more info about that incident?
.
BP wrote:13.07-14.07. Finnish aircraft dropped depth charges. Finnish minelayer "Ruotsinsalmi" and patrol boat VMV 6 dropped depth charges W to Is. Vaindlo
According to the Suomen Ilmavoimien Historia vol.24 (History of Finnish AF) by Keskinen and Stenman: A Soviet sub travelling at periscope depth, E of Kallbådagrund, afternoon 14th July 1942 was detected
A finnish SB-2 plane (code SB-5, armed with one 200kg depth charge set to explode at 25m) detected a diving soviet sub 1535 hours. Plane bombed ca. 20m in front of the place the sub had dived 15 sec earlier. Much oil began to arise.
Another plane bombed approx the same spot and the SB-5, after re-equipping, came and bombed the place again , now with three depth charges.
Minelayer Ruotsinsalmi was guided to the scene, and it dropped 11 more depth charges. ShCh-317 was destroyed.
BP wrote: explosion on mine 12.07 W to Is. Naissar [Finnish observation post detected large explosion],
collision with Swedish schooner "Hanna" 10.07. [15.00]
or depth charges from Swedish destroyer "Stockholm" 12.07 [57.52'/16.55']
where it was found by Swedish divers in spring 2000[/b]
Do you have any info about these variations?


Regards, Juha

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BIGpanzer
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Post by BIGpanzer » 22 Mar 2007 20:03

Juha wrote:
My mistake, I red Ulla, but wrote Anna
I would say you red Anna, but wrote Ulla :wink:
Juha wrote:
According to P-O Ekman, it was ShCh-406 there.
Disputed in my sources, the possibility of presence of Shch-317 was also very high.
Juha wrote about attacks of Swedish destroyers:
Any more info about that incident?
Do you have any info about these variations?
I will try to find info in addition to I've already posted [but I have no time for detailed research this week, sorry]. Several good sources describe the reasons of loss from Finnish aircraft/ships, mine explosion and Swedish destroyer as quite equal. In my opinion the version with Swedish destroyer "Stockholm" seems to be very probable also as submarine was found in the same place where Swedes dropped depth charges. I believe to Finnish depth charges as the reason of loss at the moment. I found a mention that Russian historian Pochtarev analyzed all possible reasons of loss of Shch-317 and wrote the very detailed article in Ìîðñêîé ñáîðíèê [Marine book], 1999, but I have no idea how to find it.
By the way - commander of Shch-317 [30-year old captain-lieutenant N.K. Mokhov] became one of the most effective submarine commanders during that mission [sank/damaged 4-5 ships] and that was his first mission as submarine commander.

Regards, BP

PS. I found a mention that Finnish SB pilots from LeLv 6 claimed that they sank 8 Soviet submarines [in reality only 2 (M-95 after explosion on mine and Shch-302 by SB-10), damaged Shch-317 as the 3rd one, other 5 submarines (which were attacked by Finnish SBs indeed) returned back to theis bases successfully].

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Post by Juha Tompuri » 22 Mar 2007 21:03

BIGpanzer wrote:Thanks, Juha!
As for wargame - in my opinion seems to be too early to plan so detailed operations in July 1939.
Yes, mysterious were the thoughts of the Soviet military and political leaders.
BP wrote: But several sources mention this also and add - 11.10.1943 Shch-406 was raised by Finns, later scrapped......
Could you mention some?
BP wrote:PS [some info, no time for detailed check, so any corrections are welcome]. During its career Shch-406 was unsuccessfully attacked by coastal artillery [14.06.1942],
It travelled under German artillery fire at the Leningrad sea channel
BP wrote:patrol boat [25.06.1942],
Next night Osipov met German ships laying "anti-mineclearance obstacles" at the German "Tiger" minefield. He decided to wait. It took a week.
BP wrote:Finnish bomber [Do-17 or Ju-88; 25.06.1942; lightly damaged diving rudder],
Finnish Do-22 and SB-2 planes bombed soviet sub(s) during 23-25th June, several times.
BP wrote:Finnish anti-submarine ships [during the whole day 25.06.1942, when rudder control was repaired at the bottom].
Don't remember reading about that case.
BP wrote:Shch-406 unsuccessfully attacked Swedish/German convoy [06.07.1942] and avoided Swedish patrol ship [dropped 9 depth charges],
Osipov claimed one ship sunken at this convoy. Patrol boat Kaparen dropped the depth charges.
BP wrote: attacked convoy under German flag [07.07.1942, 1 explosion was heard but no confirmation data
Don't know about that
BP wrote:heavily damaged German schooner of 545 brt [08.07.1942],
Schooner Fides, off Häradskär
BP wrote:unsuccessfully attacked Swdish/Finnish convoy [22.07.1942] and avoided 56 depth charges from 2 Swedish destroyers and patrol boats;
Destroyer Nordenskiöld and patrol boat Kaparen dropped depth charges.
BP wrote:attacked convoy under German flag [25.07.1942; 2 explosions were heard but no confirmation data]
Haven't read about this case
BP wrote: Shch-406 was attacked by enemy patrol ship [01.08.1942] which could damage nose part of the hull by depth charges, but submarine returned home successfully.
Don't remember reading about the battle on the way back.
Osipov claimed 5 ships, 40000 brt.
BP wrote:26.10.1942 - torpedoed transport [the strong explosion was noticed via periscope but no confirmations]
Off Brüsterort Osipov claimed to have sunken a 12000 brt merchant ship. No confirmation on any side.
BP wrote:sank Swedish transport "Bengt Sture" [872 brt, 29.10.1942; 7 men were rescued by submarine, 8 were lost];
Krhmmmm...rescued? Do you know the faith of the merchant mariners of a neutral country?
BP wrote:sank Finnish transport "Agnes" [2983 brt, 01.11.1942; 4 men were lost].
Yes.

Regards, Juha

P.S. info from P-O Ekman

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Juha Tompuri
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Post by Juha Tompuri » 22 Mar 2007 21:42

BIGpanzer wrote: as submarine was found in the same place where Swedes dropped depth charges.
Where? When?

BP wrote:By the way - commander of Shch-317 [30-year old captain-lieutenant N.K. Mokhov] became one of the most effective submarine commanders during that mission [sank/damaged 4-5 ships]
Argo + Ada Grothon + Otto Kords = 3 sunken, Orion damaged. With the cost of the sub and it's crew.
BP wrote:and that was his first mission as submarine commander.
At his first and last mission, the group commander Vladimir Yegorov was as his support down there too.


BP wrote:PS. I found a mention that Finnish SB pilots from LeLv 6 claimed that they sank 8 Soviet submarines
Yes they oveclaimed, about at the same rate as their opponents (Soviet subs)

Regards, Juha

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Post by John T » 22 Mar 2007 22:28

Juha Tompuri wrote:
BP wrote:7. Additional info - 06.07.1942 was attacked by Swedish destroyer "Nordenskjöld" [12.31; 2 miles SE of lighthouse Hegby, Is. Aland]
Any more info about that incident?
Not much. Torpedo missed the ship and exploded at "Gäddan" skerry 06:32.
Confirm the action but Not Nordenskjöld but Norrköping(C H Falkman) and Kaparen(Benjour). To differ between Norrköping and Nordensköld requires that you could read the pennant number.
source Ulfving - "Sjökriget Sverige- Sovietunionen" in Hugemarks "Vindkantring" The Authour quotes signal messenges in Swedish navy archive so it is as definite You'll get.
Juha Tompuri wrote:
BP wrote: explosion on mine 12.07 W to Is. Naissar [Finnish observation post detected large explosion],
collision with Swedish schooner "Hanna" 10.07. [15.00]
or depth charges from Swedish destroyer "Stockholm" 12.07 [57.52'/16.55']
where it was found by Swedish divers in spring 2000[/b]
Do you have any info about these variations?
Same source says otherwise, that Stockholm attacked S 7 that might been damaged but this source teh sub came back to base?


Cheers
/John T.

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Post by Juha Tompuri » 23 Mar 2007 00:09

Hi John,
John T wrote:
Juha Tompuri wrote:
BP wrote: explosion on mine 12.07 W to Is. Naissar [Finnish observation post detected large explosion],
collision with Swedish schooner "Hanna" 10.07. [15.00]
or depth charges from Swedish destroyer "Stockholm" 12.07 [57.52'/16.55']
where it was found by Swedish divers in spring 2000[/b]
Do you have any info about these variations?
Same source says otherwise, that Stockholm attacked S 7 that might been damaged but this source teh sub came back to base?
Once more: destroyer Stockholm did attack on a Soviet sub 12th July 1942? and the sub (ShCh-317) wreck (result of that attack) was found in spring 2000?

Regards, Juha

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Post by BIGpanzer » 23 Mar 2007 03:22

Juha wrote:
BP wrote:
But several sources mention this also and add - 11.10.1943 Shch-406 was raised by Finns, later scrapped......
Could you mention some?
For example the huge and detailed book by Byelorussian historian A. Taras "Submarines of World War Two 1939-1945", Minsk, 2004 [volume 3 from 6-volume book of the history of all world's submarines; but I could order and bought only 2 volumes, very unfortunately]. But almost all Russian online databases of Soviet submarines don't support this fact. That is why I asked you for clarifications, if possible.
Juha wrote:
BP wrote:
During its career Shch-406 was unsuccessfully attacked by coastal artillery [14.06.1942],
It travelled under German artillery fire at the Leningrad sea channel
Travelled during the night time [14.06.1942] from Leningrad to Kronshtadt
Juha wrote:
Next night [26.06. - BP] Osipov met German ships laying "anti-mineclearance obstacles" at the German "Tiger" minefield. He decided to wait. It took a week.
Incorrect [about what waiting and week you are talking :? ]. 16.06.1942 [22.04] Shch-406 started the mission to Is. Lavensaari, reached it 21.06.1942 [20.00]. 17.06.-20.06. the submarine lied at the sea bottom near Shepelevsky lighthouse because mine-sweepers sweeped mines between Shepelevsky-Lavensaari. 23.06.1942 [23.37] came to the Stockholm area [position No. 5]. Attacked by patrol boat during the night 25.06 and lightly damaged nose part of the hull during manoeuvring [hit the bottom several times]. The same day was attacked by Finnish aircraft and anti-submarine-vessels [see above and below].
28.06.[03.05] submarine finished to cross the Gulf of Finland, reached the position 30.06.
Juha wrote:
BP wrote:
Finnish anti-submarine ships [during the whole day 25.06.1942, when rudder control was repaired at the bottom].
Don't remember reading about that case.
So I remind you. Shch-406 was attacked by Finnish aircraft 25.06.1942 [01.06], and close explosion of bomb damaged control of depth and vertical rudders. Submarine lied at the bottom in the point 59.57'.7''/26.06'5'' to repair the damages and was attacked by enemy patrol boats during the whole day 25.06.1942; damages were repaired and Shch-406 continued its mission.
Juha wrote:
Osipov claimed one ship sunken at this convoy. Patrol boat Kaparen dropped the depth charges.
06.07.1942 [08.29] Osipov detected convoy [2 transports, 1 patrol ship, 1 patrol boat] 5 miles to the north from Is. Geddan, lighthouse Hevringe [? transcription]; torpedo attack against transport under German flag [2 torpedos, distance 18 cables]. Submariners heard two explosions in 2.5 min [I didn't read about the claim, but I know that attack was unsuccessful]. Swedish patrol ship "Kaparen" [of course, I knew warship names, but don't post them sometimes to save my time...] dropped 9 depth charges very far away from submarine.
Juha wrote:
BP wrote:
attacked convoy under German flag [07.07.1942, 1 explosion was heard but no confirmation data
Don't know about that
You are welcome, at the moment you know. Attack was performed 07.07.1942 [14.28] against convoy [1 transport, 3 schooners, 2 patrol boats] in the area of lighthouse Heradsher [? transcription]; torpedo attack against German transport [1 torpedo, distance 8 cables]. Submariners heard explosion in 1 min, but Germans didn't mention the loss of transport in that point then.
Juha wrote:
BP wrote:
heavily damaged German schooner of 545 brt [08.07.1942],
Schooner Fides, off Häradskär
I omitted the details to save my time. That was German schooner "Fides" [torpedo attack 08.07.1942, 23.28; 9 miles to the east from lighthouse Sandsenkan [? transkription, distance 8 cables]. Submariners heard strong explosion in 1 min, sinking schooner was detected via periscope 23.40 [58.36'/17.25']. Schooner "Fides" [545 brt] with timber on board was heavily damaged [later repaired].
Juha wrote:
BP wrote:
unsuccessfully attacked Swedish/Finnish convoy [22.07.1942] and avoided 56 depth charges from 2 Swedish destroyers and patrol boats;
Destroyer Nordenskiöld and patrol boat Kaparen dropped depth charges.
Two torpedos went near Swedish transport "Bele". My sources mention the anti-submarine attack of destroyers "Norrköping", "Karlskrona"; patrol ship "Kaparen" and patrol boat S5c, which unsuccessfully dropped 56 depth charges.
Juha wrote:
BP wrote:
attacked convoy under German flag [25.07.1942; 2 explosions were heard but no confirmation data]
Haven't read about this case
You are welcome. 25.07.1942 Shch-407 detected convoy [1 German transport, 4 patrol boats] 8 miles NE lighthouse Simpnesklubb [? transcription]. Attack against transport [2 torpedos, distance 10 cables]. Submariners heard 2 explosions, but Germans didn't mention the loss of transport there. The were no anti-submarine attacks after that.
Juha wrote:
BP wrote:
Shch-406 was attacked by enemy patrol ship [01.08.1942] which could damage nose part of the hull by depth charges, but submarine returned home successfully.
Don't remember reading about the battle on the way back.
Osipov claimed 5 ships, 40000 brt.
So I remind you. Shch-406 was attacked 01.08.1942 [13.02] by enemy patrol boat near berth Kalbodagrud [? transcription], explosion of depth charge damaged nose part of the hull, nose level tanks and cutwaters of torpedo tubes. To say more, during waiting of Soviet mine-sweepers Shch-406 was attacked by enemy ships in the Gulf of Narva 06.08.1942 [03.40], which pursued submarine till 05.30 [2 hours] and dropped 45 depth charges. Nevertheless, submarine reached Lavensaari alone successfully [07.08., 22.35].

As for Osipov's claim - in reality submarine heavily damaged German schooner "Fides" only, but as submariners heard explosions after attacks of transports [Swedish transport ~8000 t 06.07; German transport ~6000 t 07.07; Swedish transport ~7000 t 22.07; German transport ~8000 t 25.07] and couldn't raise periscope because of patrol boats, the claim had some reasons that time.

Juha wrote:
BP wrote:
26.10.1942 - torpedoed transport [the strong explosion was noticed via periscope but no confirmations]
Off Brüsterort Osipov claimed to have sunken a 12000 brt merchant ship. No confirmation on any side.
The details of attacks. Shch-406 detected transport off Brüsterort [~12.000 t], attacked from 6 cables [22.30]: 1st torpedo hit torpedo tube after fire and sank, but submariners heard strong explosion of 2nd torpedo [Osipov saw transport, listing to starboard, via periscope]. No other confirmation data of ship strong damage. [22.37] torpedo salvo was repeated [distance 5 cables, 2 torpedos, Osipov detected miss of both torpedos].
Juha wrote:
BP wrote:
sank Swedish transport "Bengt Sture" [872 brt, 29.10.1942; 7 men were rescued by submarine, 8 were lost];
Krhmmmm...rescued? Do you know the faith of the merchant mariners of a neutral country?
Yes, rescued as Swedish flag was detected on sinking ship [Osipov stopped the attack of transport "Tiland" one day before because he saw Swedish flag clearly via periscope]. Otherwise they were captured [in the case of Germans or Finns]. 8 Swedish sailors from "Bengt Sture" were lost during explosion, 7 were rescued by Shch-406. AFAIK Swedish sailors should be return back from USSR to Sweden with the help of consulate or Red Cross in such cases [in theory at least].
I've read recently the paragraph about Soviet and Swedish sea relationships that time. USSR recognized Sweden as neutral country, of course; Soviets explained the several attacks against Swedes because of mistakes [most probably] but noticed the transportation of German cargos by Swedish ships in the war area.
As for fates of sailors from "Bengt Sture" - AFAIK 8 Swedes [captain S. Hedberg, 1st navigator J.-A. Walther, 2nd navigator P.-I.A. Kappelin, cook E. Telin, stewardess M.-K. von Hamm, mechanic G. Rusling and fireman F-G. Sadberg] were delivered to Kronshtadt, and then to NKVD department of Baltic Sea Navy in Leningrad. Then their fates became unknown. Soviet investigation of 1954 according to Swedish request showed that all Swedes were in Leningrad during its blockade and it was planned to evacuate them, but what happened with them exactly during that terrible and hungry years - nobody knows [one of the possibility - truck with Swedes was bombed during their evacuation through the Ladoga "Road of Life"]. In 1993 Russian-Swedish commission was established, trying to find the fates of Swedes [members of commission worked a lot in Russian archives of the Ministry of Defense and asked eye-witnesses - NKVD veterans and other men who could see Swedes in blockade Leningrad], but they couldn't find exact info. May be they already found something, I don't know exactly.
Juha wrote:
BIGpanzer wrote:
as submarine was found in the same place where Swedes dropped depth charges.
Where? When?
:? See above. I've already mentioned in my previous post that one of the possible reason [mentioned by many Russian databases of Soviet submarines together with the "Finnish reason"] of Shch-317 loss was the attack of Swedish destroyer "Stockholm" 12.07.1942 N to Is. Aland in the point 57.52'/16.55'. http://www.deepstorm.ru mentions that Swedish divers found submarine in the same point exactly in spring 2000 [Taras mentioned that submarine was found in summer 1999].
Juha wrote:
Argo + Ada Grothon + Otto Kords = 3 sunken, Orion damaged. With the cost of the sub and it's crew.
Anyway the list of victories during the single mission is impressive for WWII submarine[for example, all submariners of Baltic Sea Navy sank 22 ships during 1942].
Juha wrote:
At his first and last mission, the group commander Vladimir Yegorov was as his support down there too.
I guess that you enjoy this fact......Captain 2nd rank V.A. Egorov was a commander of 4th division [squadron] of submarines. The award [Order of Lenin, already cancelled that time] for this mission was given to his daughter 02.04.1992 only.
Juha wrote:
Yes they oveclaimed, about at the same rate as their opponents (Soviet subs)
Juha needs to mention Soviets this time :wink: As I've mentioned - pilots and sailors of all nations [not only Finns...and Soviets] overclaimed their victories, mainly not because of propaganda [that was done on much higher level] but because of combat mistakes - try to bomb oil trail or torpedoed ship using hydroacoustics: additional oil or explosive sound in required period of time instilled hope and claim of victory.

Regards, BP

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Post by Janne » 23 Mar 2007 09:02

Pardon me, but wasn't the wreck found in Swedish waters definitively identified as "S7", i.e the one sank by a torpedo fired by "Vesihiisi"? (Furthermore, FWIW, I cannot recall reading about any other Soviet sub found since then and a quick Google search doesn't bring up any mentions of a second sub.)

The Swedish Navy attacked foreign subs on five occasions: on two the sub was observed as moving away, on two there was oil released to the surface but it wasn't considered a kill, and on one - "near Västervik" - there was plenty of oil and debris after an attack by a variety of escort ships and one aircraft and in total over fifty depth charges were dropped in the area and it was considered a "very likely" kill.

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MAS-571 and Shch-214

Post by walter leotta » 23 Mar 2007 09:55

BP: Thank you very much. If you have additional details of sinking Shch-214 by Italian torpedo boat MAS. 571 - please, post them.

Hi BP

26.5.42 - 19° Flottiglia MAS arrived in Yalta [MAS-570, MAS-571, MAS-572, MAS-573] under KK Castagnacci command

18.6.42 in the fightning combat against small russian convoy, Lt. Bissagno cdr of MAS-571 died

19.6.41 the next day KK Castagnacci takes prov. the command of MAS-571
off Yalta
in the night MAS-571 and MAS-573 intercept a soviet sub
MAS-573 one shot no hit
MAS-571 from 700-800 meters two shots two hits
soviet sub sunk and MAS-571 takes two prisoners

sorry for my bad english

bye bye

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Post by BIGpanzer » 23 Mar 2007 12:02

Walter Leotta wrote:
19.6.41 the next day KK Castagnacci takes prov. the command of MAS-571
off Yalta
in the night MAS-571 and MAS-573 intercept a soviet sub
MAS-573 one shot no hit
MAS-571 from 700-800 meters two shots two hits
soviet sub sunk and MAS-571 takes two prisoners
Thanks for the info a lot! AFAIK Shch-214 after emersion was detected by Yalta shore observation post and two torpedo boats [MAS.571 and MAS.573] were sent to intercept the submarine. MAS.571 sank Shch-214 19.06.1942 [not 1941], 21.23 [20 miles SE of cape Aitodor]. According to my sources - one torpedo from MAS.571 missed, but another hit the nose part of submarine. In 1 min Shch-214 sank, 38 or 39 men were lost, but two were captured by Italians - mechanic N.V. Poltavtsev [died in prison] and electrician D.F. Pleshakov.
Walter Leotta wrote:
sorry for my bad english
No problem, all of us are not English native speakers as me seems :wink:

Regards, BP

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Post by Juha Tompuri » 23 Mar 2007 12:51

Janne wrote:Pardon me, but wasn't the wreck found in Swedish waters definitively identified as "S7", i.e the one sank by a torpedo fired by "Vesihiisi"?
AFAIK, yes
Janne wrote:(Furthermore, FWIW, I cannot recall reading about any other Soviet sub found since then and a quick Google search doesn't bring up any mentions of a second sub.)
Another boat wreck has been found too: S-8
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... t=#1033256

I haven't read about any others. Maybe BP can shed some more light to his mentioned ShCh-317 wreck finding by Swedish divers in spring 2000.

Regards, Juha

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Post by BIGpanzer » 23 Mar 2007 15:20

Janne wrote:
Pardon me, but wasn't the wreck found in Swedish waters definitively identified as "S7", i.e the one sank by a torpedo fired by "Vesihiisi"? (Furthermore, FWIW, I cannot recall reading about any other Soviet sub found since then and a quick Google search doesn't bring up any mentions of a second sub.)
1. For sure S-7 was torpedoed by "Vesihiisi" 21.10.1942 [20.43] in the point 59.50'7'"/19.32'2".
2. All sources I could find mention that S-7 was found by Swedish divers off Söderarm in 1998 [depth ~40 m]. If you see the image from side scan radar - you identify for 100% sure that this is submarine of "S"-class at least.
See this Swedish source about identification of S-7 wrecks: http://www.abc.se/~pa/uwa/s7.htm
S-7 returning to Kronshtadt after mission, 08.1942 - http://www.kronfund.ru/content/data/gal ... _147_b.jpg

2. As for Shch-317 - almost all my sources mentioned several reasons of possible loss of that submarine: 13-14.07.1942 - attack of Finnish aircraft and warships [mine-layer "Ruotsinsalmi" and patrol boat VMV 6] as the main version [but not confirmed for sure] or 12.07.1942 - attack of Swedish destroyer "Stockholm" in the point 57.52'/16.55' as the very possible version also. Less possible versions - explosion on sea mine 12.07 or collision with Swedish schooner "Hanna" 10.07. [15.00]. I still have no time to investigate all those cases in more details. Also I found that several Russian submarine databases I am using here mention, that Shch-317 was found by Swedish divers in spring 1999 or summer 2000 in the point 57.52'/16.55', but another databases don't mention anything about such fact.
This English database [very undetailed and far away from Russian excellent databases] mentions that Shch-317 was exploded on mine 08.07.1942 -
http://www.battleships-cruisers.co.uk/r ... arines.htm
So the fate of Shch-317 is not so clear as S-7. That is why I am trying to find some additional info.
Juha wrote:
I haven't read about any others. Maybe BP can shed some more light to his mentioned ShCh-317 wreck finding by Swedish divers in spring 2000.
I will try to do as much as possible. But I know just the short info I've already found and posted here, and nothing more at the moment :roll: :(
Juha wrote:
Another boat wreck has been found too: S-8
About S-8 - that submarine was lost in October 1941 and again the best sources discuss several possible reasons [not best sources just mention one of the reason as the single one :wink: ]. 13.10.1941 the radiomessage was sent from HQ to S-8 - "attack warships near island Hiuma", but no reply radiomessages were received, submarine disappeared. The reasons of loss: sea mine of the mine field "Uminda" or "Wartburg", technical problems, also the version with artillery combat with Swedish coastal defense ship "Oscar II" off Is. Aland is discussed. 48 crewmembers were lost.

In July 1999 S-8 was found 10 miles S from Is. Aland. Conning tower hatches were open so submarine sank from surface position [buoyancy]. Point: 56.10,7'/16.39,8'. As this point located inside the northern part of WWII mine field "Wartburg" [laid 20-21.06.1941], many sources mention this mine field as the most possible reason of S-8 loss. But: 1) S-8 should reach the position off Bornholm [and the shortest way to it took course quite far away from Is. Aland], but the mentioned coordinates corresponds well with the loss point of S-6 [so there is a possibility that S-6 was found instead of S-8]; 2) spaces between mines in the northern part of "Wartburg" were near 307-464 m, so the possibility of mine hit was quite low......AFAIK there is no answer on these questions still.
http://compunews.com/s13/s8.htm [found wrecks; mention that submarine exploded on mine 21.10.1941 near Gogland]
http://www.abc.se/~pa/sture/s8.htm [Swedish site with the image from side scan radar of S-8]

Regards, BP

PS. Just for the info - types and names of Soviet-built submarines of WWII period [as many sources mention them in quite incorrect way]:

1. Type "M" ["Malyutka"/"Little thing"] - series V, V-bis, XII, XV. Small submarines for the defense of naval bases and blockade of nearby enemy ports; cheap for large scale production; it was possible to transport them by railroad transport in one piece.
2. Type "Shch" ["Shchuka"/"Pike"] - series III, V, V-bis, V-bis-I2, X, X-bis. Medium submarines for the operations in small seas [Baltic Sea mainly] with good maneuvrability and quite powerful torpedo weapon.
3. Type "S" ["Srednyaya"/"Medium"; "Stalinets" is wrong designation] - series IX, IX-bis, IX-bis-2. Medium submarines of German project, ocean-going.
4. Type "D" ["Dekabrist"/"Decembrist"] - serie I. Large submarines for Baltic Sea.
5. Type "L" ["Leninets"/"Leninist"] - series II, IX, XIII. Large mine-laying submarines.
6. Type "P" ["Pravda"/"Truth"] - serie IV. Large fleet-type submarine.
7. Type "K" ["Kreiserskaya"/"Cruiser"] - serie XIV. Large cruiser fleet-type submarine with powerful artillery anf torpedo weapon.
Last edited by BIGpanzer on 23 Mar 2007 19:22, edited 2 times in total.

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Juha Tompuri
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Post by Juha Tompuri » 23 Mar 2007 16:26

BIGpanzer wrote:In July 1999 S-8 was found 10 miles S from Is. Aland
AFAIK June 1999, East of Öland.
http://www.forsvarsutbildarna.se/index. ... file=16633 (page 16)

Regards, Juha

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BIGpanzer
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Post by BIGpanzer » 23 Mar 2007 16:42

I often have problems with the Swedish transliteration [I don't know Swedish, unfortunately].
http://www.deepstorm.ru mentions the following - S-8 was found in July 1999 10 miles to the south-east from lighthouse Nesbü [correct spelling, please], south part of Is. Öland.

As for Shch-317 - as I've mentioned I believe to "Finnish version" more than to "Swedish". No addition info that Swedes found it in 1999-2000 [so, probably, Taras mistaked here].

As for S-8 - a very interesting new info [quotes from Russian journal "Fleet", 2000]: at first 94-year old chief constructor of "S"-submarines M. Lerner [he lives in Israel now] saw the video of Swedish divers and he noticed that it was S-8 indeed [also brass mark of S-8 was found by divers]; secondly - Russian engineers and historians carefully investigated the video and photos, they noticed opened conning hatches, damaged topside, hole in the 2nd compartment of S-8; also 100mm gun of S-8 fired before catastrophe [shell cases were visible]. Russian naval engineers who saw the photos mentioned that it was not mine explosion [the most well-known version of loss] but they said those were shell damages and, most probably, S-8 participated in unequal artillery combat with enemy ship, and that ship could be Swedish coastal battleship "Oscar II".

PS. Just for the info: I found quite interesting Russian site about sunken ships in the Gulf of Finland - click on each spot in the map and get the short info of wrecks [Soviet, German, Finnish] with photos. Far away from full database of wrecks in Gulf of Finland, but quite interesting nevertheless.
http://www.baltic-sunken-ships.ru/map.p ... =3&lng=RUS [for example, the wrecks of Shch-302 or Finnish Bristol Blenheim [BL-144, BL-122 or BL-133 shot down 7-10.03.1940 in that region]
Shch-302 - was lost ~11.10.1942 [most probably - heavily damaged on mine of mine field "Nashorn", "Uminda" or "Seeigel" (12.10.) and then sank by German aircraft or Finnish bomber SB-10 from LeLv 6 (14.10.) N. from Is.B. Tüters], 37 men were lost.
http://www.baltic-sunken-ships.ru/data/pic/48_07_01.jpg [Shch-302]
http://www.baltic-sunken-ships.ru/data/pic/48_02_01.jpg [Shch-302 on side view radar]

BP

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