Ethnic makeup of Soviet Army in 44/45

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Art
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Post by Art » 02 Jun 2007 16:59

BTW here is the ethnic composition of the population of USSR according to the census of 1939. I hope it would be interesting for this discussion:
Designation of nationality - Number
Total tabulated - 169.517.127
Russian - 99.019.929
Ukrainian - 28.070.404
Belorussian - 5.267.431
Uzbek - 4.844.021
Tatar - 4.300.336
Kazakh - 3.098.764
Jew - 3.020.141
Azer - 2.274.805
Georgian - 2.248.566
Armenian - 2.151.884
Mordvian - 1.451.429
German - 1.423.534
Chuvach - 1.367.930
Tadzhik - 1.228.964
Kirgiz - 884.306
Pepoles of Dagestan - 857.371
Bashkir - 842.925
Turkmen - 811.769
Pole - 626.905
Udmurt - 605.673
Mari - 481.262
Komi - 408.724
Chechen - 407.690
Osetin - 354.547
Greek - 285.896
Moldavian - 260.023
Karel - 252.559
Kara-Kalpak - 185.775
Korean - 180.412
Kabardian - 164.106
Finn -143.074
Estonian - 142.465
Kalmyk - 134.327
Latvian and Latgal -126.900
Bulgarian -113.479
Ingush -92.074
Adygey - 87.973
Karachay - 75.737
Abkhazian - 68.969
Khakas - 52.602
Oyrot - 47.717
Kurd - 45. 866
Balkar - 42.666
Iranian - 39.037
Lithuanian - 32.342
Chinese - 29.620
Czech, Slovak - 26.919
Arab - 21.793
Other nationalities - 827.486
Not specified - 948. 059
One can see that Eastern Slavic nationalities constituted a very significant majority of the population of the Soviet union that time (at least 132.360 thousands from 170,5-million population). Of course, it should be taken into account that the ethic composition significantly altered in the last pre-war years due to the annexation of territories with more than 20-mln population. Subsequently, the number of Ukrainians, Belorussians, Poles, Jews, Moldavians, Lithuanians, Latvians and Estonians living in USSR was much higher in June 1941 then it was in January, 1939. However, in the result the percentage of Asian and Caucasian folks became even smaller in June 1949 as compared with census data.
Last edited by Art on 03 Jun 2007 16:05, edited 2 times in total.

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Kunikov
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Post by Kunikov » 02 Jun 2007 23:34

Alex Yeliseenko wrote:One more example. Kunikov, the request to you. Translate, please this table. I have no time.

Не смогу корректно и грамотно перевести.

Image
From what I understand it lists the percentage of the men in the divisions listed on the bottom who were in fact of the nationality which the division was 'named' after:
77th Azerbajani division
89th Armenian division
223rd Azerbajani division
276th Georgian division
394th Georgian division
409th Armenian division
414th Georgian division

I believe the numbers speak for themselves.

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Post by Art » 03 Jun 2007 16:09

Alex, and were is this table taken from? As some remark - not all sodiers from ethic minorities were in national formations, so the ethnic composition of national divisions shows only part of the issue.

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Alex Yeliseenko
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Post by Alex Yeliseenko » 03 Jun 2007 16:19

Art wrote:Alex, and were is this table taken from? As some remark - not all sodiers from ethic minorities were in national formations, so the ethnic composition of national divisions shows only part of the issue.
From book "Народы Кавказа и Красная армия.1918-1945".


Well-known, that the Soviet command aspired to minimize number not knowing Russian the soldier in "usual" divisions. This one of the reasons of creation of national divisions in 1941-1942.

In general this theme is well shined in the publication: Н.А. Кирсанов, "Национальные формирования Красной армии в ВОВ 1941-1945".

Счастливо!

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Post by Art » 03 Jun 2007 16:42

From book "Народы Кавказа и Красная армия.1918-1945".
Thanks.
Well-known, that the Soviet command aspired to minimize number not knowing Russian the soldier in "usual" divisions. This one of the reasons of creation of national divisions in 1941-1942
I don't have full knowledge of the "national" policy of Red Army command, but it seems to me that this policy varied with time. If you look, for example, in the directive on the preperation of the mobilizational plan sent to Transcaucaus Military District in March 1941 (published in "malinovka"), you would see that this directive recommended not to create ethnicaly uniform units and disperse people from local Cucasian nationalities between different units.
In general this theme is well shined in the publication: Н.А. Кирсанов, "Национальные формирования Красной армии в ВОВ 1941-1945".
Link:
http://www.auditorium.ru/books/4539/ch6.pdf

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Kunikov
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Post by Kunikov » 04 Jun 2007 06:00

I'm reading a German sniper's memoirs at the moment and he just mentioned a 'mongolian' unit, he was part of the 3rd Mountain Division and operated in the south, Donbas region, etc. Most likely these were central asians he was encountering. I'm amazed by the account he gives and his wonderful recollection of the conversations these soldiers had with each other, told to him by a third party, although the author of the book who interviewed the sniper mixed up the Russian word 'watch' for 'weakling.' Anyway, just thought this was interesting since we're dealing with 'ethnicities.'

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Alex Yeliseenko
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Post by Alex Yeliseenko » 04 Jun 2007 13:29

I don't have full knowledge of the "national" policy of Red Army command, but it seems to me that this policy varied with time. If you look, for example, in the directive on the preperation of the mobilizational plan sent to Transcaucaus Military District in March 1941 (published in "malinovka"), you would see that this directive recommended not to create ethnicaly uniform units and disperse people from local Cucasian nationalities between different units.
[
This policy was transformed to 1941 (end)-1942 years. Then in Red Army there were tens national divisions and brigades. However, as has fairly specified Tyulenev, Beria has played not a kind role in desbansed many divisions. Partially Beria was right. Many divisions have badly proved to be in fights.

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Habu
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Post by Habu » 05 Jun 2007 08:35

Privet Alex-
Alex Yeliseenko wrote:Some figures.

From the Soviet fronts not Russian was most Transcaucasian, especially its northern group

Here national figures of northern group Transcaucasian front for November, 1st, 1942:

Russian of 43,85 %
Ukrainian 12,67 %
Byelorussians of 1,01 %
Azerbaijanians of 18,67 %
Armenians of 6,41 %
Georgians of 6,43 %
Ossets of 0,5 %
Chechens and Ingushs of 0,05 %
Kabarda and Balkar 0,56 %
Dagestanian 0,68 %
Karachi and Circassians - 0,03 % (all mountaineers of Northern Caucasus - 1,82 %).
Turks of 0,1 %
Kalmyks of 0,11 %
Uzbeks of 2,56 %
Tadjiks of 0,01 %
Kirghiz of 0,03 %
Kazakhs of 0,44 %
Mordvinians and Chuvashs of 0,65 %
Tatar 0,92 %
Jews of 1,43 %

Others of 3,19 %

It to finish or continuation of figures is necessary?
What is the total number of soldiers represented by these percentages?

Bolsho spasiba.

Volklin
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Post by Volklin » 05 Jun 2007 08:52

I'd also like to see percent like that for other fronts in years 44/45 if it's possible

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Alex Yeliseenko
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Post by Alex Yeliseenko » 05 Jun 2007 12:19

Habu wrote:Privet Alex-
Alex Yeliseenko wrote:Some figures.

From the Soviet fronts not Russian was most Transcaucasian, especially its northern group

Here national figures of northern group Transcaucasian front for November, 1st, 1942:

Russian of 43,85 %
Ukrainian 12,67 %
Byelorussians of 1,01 %
Azerbaijanians of 18,67 %
Armenians of 6,41 %
Georgians of 6,43 %
Ossets of 0,5 %
Chechens and Ingushs of 0,05 %
Kabarda and Balkar 0,56 %
Dagestanian 0,68 %
Karachi and Circassians - 0,03 % (all mountaineers of Northern Caucasus - 1,82 %).
Turks of 0,1 %
Kalmyks of 0,11 %
Uzbeks of 2,56 %
Tadjiks of 0,01 %
Kirghiz of 0,03 %
Kazakhs of 0,44 %
Mordvinians and Chuvashs of 0,65 %
Tatar 0,92 %
Jews of 1,43 %

Others of 3,19 %

It to finish or continuation of figures is necessary?
What is the total number of soldiers represented by these percentages?

Bolsho spasiba.
Hallo!

Sorry, not nov.1, correct nov.20.1942

Total - 216800 soldiers.

Russian 95071
Ukrainian 27479
azeri 40476
and other

source - Народы Кавказа и Красная Армия, p.213

Regards.

Alex/

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Yuri
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Post by Yuri » 05 Jun 2007 15:46

Volklin wrote:I'd also like to see percent like that for other fronts in years 44/45 if it's possible
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ThomasG
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Post by ThomasG » 05 Jun 2007 16:07

Can you identify the ethnicity of this Soviet PoW?
http://img467.imageshack.us/img467/8979 ... mkrez4.jpg

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Kunikov
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Post by Kunikov » 05 Jun 2007 16:42

ThomasG wrote:Can you identify the ethnicity of this Soviet PoW?
http://img467.imageshack.us/img467/8979 ... mkrez4.jpg
One could only guess.

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Yuri
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Post by Yuri » 05 Jun 2007 17:06

Kunikov wrote: One could only guess.
It can be the Kazakh from Dzhambul area or Chimkent area (differently the Kazakh of their southern sort, at Kazakhs three sorts – southern, east and western) or it can be the Uzbek or a kara-kalpakian or the Kirghiz, but it not Tadjik and not Turkmen.

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Kunikov
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Post by Kunikov » 05 Jun 2007 17:52

From what I remember there might have been a few Koreans in the Red Army.

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