USSR artillery shell production

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rcocean
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USSR artillery shell production

Post by rcocean » 11 May 2008 16:35

Hello - I'm trying to compare German vs. USSR shell production for Artillery pieces 1941-1945. The German figures for the 105mm howitzer and 150mm are available, but I've had problems finding the following:

1) USSR shell production per year for the 76mm and 122mm and 152mm

2) USSR shell production for the 85mm AAA gun

3) Tons of TNT production by Germany 1941-1945.

I've located the amount of lend-lease TNT provided to USSR, and I have the total TNT production for USSR - but I don't have it for Germany.

My suspicion is that looking only at artillery production of field pieces vastly overstates the power/effectiveness of the Russian artillery. My suspicion is that the USSR probably had far fewer rounds per gun and in total than Germany.

Any help would be appreciated.
Last edited by rcocean on 12 May 2008 00:19, edited 1 time in total.

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Ironmachine
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Re: USSR artillery shell production

Post by Ironmachine » 11 May 2008 18:15

Though not exactly what you are looking for, here you will find some information that supports your idea:
http://www.ordersofbattle.darkscape.net ... rProd.html
Just scroll down till the "Ammunition" and "Lend-Lease Ammunition and Explosives" sections.

P.S. German production numbers are fairly well covered here:
http://www.ordersofbattle.darkscape.net ... pProd.html

rcocean
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Re: USSR artillery shell production

Post by rcocean » 12 May 2008 00:18

Thanks Ironmachine,

Very helpful. But I need to tie down the annual shell production for the 76mm and 122mm & 1.52 cm field guns.

The stats you provided, almost :) give me what I was looking for.

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Re: USSR artillery shell production

Post by Art » 12 May 2008 16:31

rcocean wrote: 3) Tons of TNT production by Germany 1941-1945.
See:
http://www.sturmvogel.orbat.com/ussbsappd.html

rcocean
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Re: USSR artillery shell production

Post by rcocean » 13 May 2008 03:07

Many thanks Art.

This gives me some great information on German TNT/Powder production !

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Re: USSR artillery shell production

Post by Art » 13 May 2008 14:44

The Soviet production of exposives and powder was much smaller then German one, overall capacity of chemical industry being the principal bottleneck. The most reliable figures I've seen are from I.Vernidub's book - 505 thousands tons of TNT and other individual exposives and 399,8 thousands of smokeless powder produced during the war. There is some conflicting informaton about the amount of import. The most common figure is 317 - 320 thousands tons of exposives and powder, but but including 46 thousands tons of dynamite wich was not used in ammunition production. There are different variant of breakdown of the rest part of import. Simonov ("Soviet military-industrial complex in 1920s-50s") gives 163,8 thousands of powder and 105,3 thousands tons of exposives imported, allready mentioned Vernidub -140 thousands tons of powder (that doesn't include powder and exposive in imported ammunition). It seems that the sum of powder and explosive import - about 270 thousands tons can be taken as more or less reliably known.

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Re: USSR artillery shell production

Post by rcocean » 16 May 2008 17:15

Art,

Thanks for the information.

Sources indicate the Allies provided the USSR with 103,000 tons of toluene, the primary ingredient of TNT. Do you have any idea where I can find the USSR production of toluene?

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Re: USSR artillery shell production

Post by Art » 16 May 2008 17:34

The handbook "Narodnoye Khozaistvo SSSR v ...1941-1945" (The USSR's economy in 1941-1945) contains the following production figures:
1940 - 37,9 thousands tons of toluene
1941 - 57, 9
1942 - 38,1
1943 - 39,8
1944 - 38,3
1945 - 33,5
So the sum for the years 1941-45 is about 200 thousands tons, allied deliveries equall to 100 thousands, total 300. One can derive using simple calculations that if all that toluene was used for TNT production then it must yield about 750 thousands tons of TNT. The actual figure is <500 thousands. I don't know what account for such a difference, probably the fact that the table above include some production outside the war period or the fact that toluene was used for some other applications.

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Re: USSR artillery shell production

Post by Jon G. » 15 Jul 2008 16:03

Toluene is also used as a gasoline additive. It boosts the octane rating. Maybe some of the surplus toluene was used for that purpose.

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Hauptmann Kloss
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Re: USSR artillery shell production

Post by Hauptmann Kloss » 15 Jul 2008 17:38

Jon G. wrote:Toluene is also used as a gasoline additive. It boosts the octane rating. Maybe some of the surplus toluene was used for that purpose.
I do not think so it was used in that capacity during the war. It would be waste of war making material. Toluene octane rating is only 114 so a lot is required to boost gasoline. Tetra-ethyl lead works as well for octane boosting with required concentration in gas just at about 1:1300....

Toluene has multiple uses in chemical industry, as solvent.
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Re: USSR artillery shell production

Post by Art » 16 Jul 2008 12:28

Jon G. wrote:Toluene is also used as a gasoline additive. It boosts the octane rating. Maybe some of the surplus toluene was used for that purpose.
If I'm not mistaken, the principal anitidetonation gasoline additive used during the war was so-called product R-9 (now known as ethil liquid R-9), which had tetraethil lead as it principal compound. I don't know about any mas usage of toluen in that role, but I'm not a specialist here after all.

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Re: USSR artillery shell production

Post by Jon G. » 18 Jul 2008 17:50

Hauptmann Kloss wrote:
Jon G. wrote:Toluene is also used as a gasoline additive. It boosts the octane rating. Maybe some of the surplus toluene was used for that purpose.
I do not think so it was used in that capacity during the war. It would be waste of war making material. Toluene octane rating is only 114 so a lot is required to boost gasoline. Tetra-ethyl lead works as well for octane boosting with required concentration in gas just at about 1:1300....

Toluene has multiple uses in chemical industry, as solvent.
Sure, but without evidence either way we can't know. I was simply suggesting a possible use for the surplus of Toluene delivered via Lend-Lease. The USSR did take deliveries of avgas via LL, which implies that they had problems turning out enough high-octane fuel themselves. So I do not consider it unlikely that toluene was used as a gasoline additive, however inferior it was for that purpose compared to tetra-ethyl lead.

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Re: USSR artillery shell production

Post by Hauptmann Kloss » 18 Jul 2008 19:08

Jon G. wrote:...
Sure, but without evidence either way we can't know. I was simply suggesting a possible use for the surplus of Toluene delivered via Lend-Lease. The USSR did take deliveries of avgas via LL, which implies that they had problems turning out enough high-octane fuel themselves. So I do not consider it unlikely that toluene was used as a gasoline additive, however inferior it was for that purpose compared to tetra-ethyl lead.

What evidence you require? Just run simple calculation for yourself of Soviet gas consumption during war and required amount of toluene to treat it.
To this day aviation gas is treated with tetra-ethyl lead
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Re: USSR artillery shell production

Post by Jon G. » 18 Jul 2008 19:20

The evidence I require is what the toluene which apparently wasn't used for explosives manufacture was used for.

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Re: USSR artillery shell production

Post by Hauptmann Kloss » 18 Jul 2008 19:30

Jon G. wrote:The evidence I require is what the toluene which apparently wasn't used for explosives manufacture was used for.

Please google toluene to find wide usage of the product in the industry, primary as solvent at that time. Today probably polyurethane production.
I say burning it in engines isn`t smartest use of material that require transatlantic shipment, when more weight effective solutions are readily available.
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