Soviet tank cost

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Alejandro_
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Soviet tank cost

Post by Alejandro_ » 28 Dec 2008 21:06

When I was looking for information about IS-2 I came accross this link:

http://tank.uw.ru/archive/sebestoimostx/index.khtml

It has information on T-34 and IS-2 cost depending on the factory and year.

IS-2 (ChKZ)
1943: 347900
1944: 264400
1945: 230000

IS-3 (ChKZ)
1945: 267200

T-34 factory 112 (1942): 209700
T-34 factory 112 (1943): 209300
T-34 factory 112 (1944): 174900
T-34 factory 112 (1945): 173000

T-34 factory 183 (1941): 259256
T-34 factory 183 (1942): 165810
T-34 factory 183 (1943): 141822
T-34 factory 183 (1944): 140996
T-34 factory 183 (1945): 136380

I would like to get a better idea of the prices. Does anyone have information on other stuff (papers, cars) in USSR during the 40s. Some exchange rate with dollar or Reichsmark would be interesting as it can then be compared to some prices for Panzer available in:

http://www.panzerworld.net/prices

The exercise is very theoretical and both currencies cannot be easily converted, the war and different nature of economic systems make a direct comparison quite difficult.

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Simon K
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Re: Soviet tank cost

Post by Simon K » 28 Dec 2008 21:14

According to Wiki a T34/76 initially costed 269,000 R final costing (for T34/85) was 135,000 R. Huge economies of scale I assume.
CF Zaloga & Grandsen 1984 : p131

Acording to a memoir by a British Merchant seaman in 1942, 60 R was worth £3.

BBC WW2 Peoples War

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masqqqq
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Re: Soviet tank cost

Post by masqqqq » 29 Dec 2008 00:50

Cost give any knowledge but in my opinion the better view is comparing labour consumption. How many manhours was necessary to produce given tank. For example T34 = 3000 manhours versus Panther= 55000 manhours , with diference in cost gives ratio only 1 to 2. Cost in rubles isn,t good measure because of fundamental diferences between comunist and capitalist econmy.

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Simon K
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Re: Soviet tank cost

Post by Simon K » 29 Dec 2008 01:09

I am SHOCKED by that man hours difference. Was that 55,000 hrs? :o WOW!

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masqqqq
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Re: Soviet tank cost

Post by masqqqq » 29 Dec 2008 01:16

Soviets as first uses automatic welding for hulls and turrets / 5 to 6 time faster /. In connection to very simple construction it can gives such efect.

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Der Alte Fritz
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Re: Soviet tank cost

Post by Der Alte Fritz » 04 Jan 2009 08:38

I suspect the 3,000 figure for T34s was like the Liberty ship built in a week phenomenom a one off special.

Typical build time was 20-25,000 manhours and cost $25,000 (Sherman was 17-25,000 and $25,000)

Panther was 55,000 hours and $52,000, so a T-34 or Sherman 'cost' about half the 'cost' of a Panther.

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Re: Soviet tank cost

Post by RCW Mark » 04 Jan 2009 10:34

I suspect the 3,000 figure for T34s was like the Liberty ship built in a week phenomenom a one off special.
Stalin was particularly fond of the Stakhanovite method of accounting for industrial output. Also known as lying.

If the Soviets could outproduce the West like that in tanks, then why not cars? Or tractors, train engines, planes, etc? Neither before nor after WWII was the USSR able to produce engineering sufficiently cheaply to make up for its lower quality.

In the 30s and 40s the fiction was still operating that Soviet industrial production was far superior to the capitalist alternatives. In time the truth caught up with them.

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masqqqq
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Re: Soviet tank cost

Post by masqqqq » 06 Jan 2009 19:19

Der Alte Fritz wrote:I suspect the 3,000 figure for T34s was like the Liberty ship built in a week phenomenom a one off special.

Typical build time was 20-25,000 manhours and cost $25,000 (Sherman was 17-25,000 and $25,000)

Panther was 55,000 hours and $52,000, so a T-34 or Sherman 'cost' about half the 'cost' of a Panther.
For T-34 total labour consumption was on the level 8000 hours - in 1941, 3700 - in 1943, later in 1944 it achived level 3000- but expense of poor quality many elements. For T-34-85 ( 1.01.1945) - 3250 manhours and 3515 together with co-opertion companies ( data for factory no 183) as interesting fact for post war T-54 : 10240/ 11251 manhours adequately. There are various data for different factories certainlly. We must rember about rubel to dollar fixed exchange rate, which wasn't connected with real economy at all ( as I remember 1 US dollar = 5,3 Rubel , but I'm not sure) . Manhours essential for production are the best measure for comparision real cost different tanks.

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Alejandro_
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Re: Soviet tank cost

Post by Alejandro_ » 08 Oct 2010 13:24

Is it possible to have some sources for the T-34 production time in hours?

I would like to add that USSR focused into a few designs and built in them in large scale at massive factories. Germans never achieved anything similar, furthermore, the effects of allied bombing should be taken into account. According to surverys, dispersal required 20% more workers.

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Re: Soviet tank cost

Post by Paul_Atreides » 09 Oct 2010 09:50

Cost of T-34 in manhours

Factory - 1.01.1942 - 1.01.43 - 1.01.44 - 1.01.45 - 1.07.45

№183 - 6 900 - 5 100 - 3 617 - 3 251 - 3 209
№112 - 9 000 - 7 500 - 5 497 - 4 439 - 3 388
№174 - 8 092* - 7 205 - 4 574 - 3 209 - 3 094

* - 1.07.1942

Cost of IS-2 in manhours

ChTZ - - - - - 8 187 - 5 102 - 5 323

А. Ю. Ермолов "Танковая промышленность СССР в годы Великой Отечественной войны". Москва, 2009. С. 152, 261.
There is no waste, there are reserves (Slogan of German Army in World Wars)

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Alejandro_
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Re: Soviet tank cost

Post by Alejandro_ » 11 Oct 2010 10:12

Thanks Paul, great information

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Sherman was 17-25,000

Post by Dave Bender » 11 Oct 2010 14:00

Where did you get that cost figure for a Sherman Tank?

http://www.panzerworld.net/prices.html
According to this site Sherman tanks average about $50,000 each.

Early Model Panther (I assume the auf D model)
117,100 rm. Tank without weapons.
12,000 rm. 7.5cm KwK42 main gun.
327 rm. MG34 coaxial MG.
250 rm. MG42 commander MG.
----------------------------------------
129,677 rm for Panther auf D
..... assume 2.5 rm per USA dollar
$ 51,871 essentially the same price as a Sherman tank.
However this only applies to the early model Panther auf D. The mass produced Panther auf A and auf G models would have been considerably less expensive. Quite a production achievement for such an effective tank.

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Alejandro_
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Re: Soviet tank cost

Post by Alejandro_ » 19 Oct 2010 10:28

However this only applies to the early model Panther auf D. The mass produced Panther auf A and auf G models would have been considerably less expensive. Quite a production achievement for such an effective tank.
I have tried comparing the cost of T-34 and Sherman based on cost and its quite misleading. For example, the US modify the exchange rate versus the rouble to favour soviet imports. Also, salaries in the US were higher.

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comparing the cost of T-34 and Sherman

Post by Dave Bender » 19 Oct 2010 19:26

I think of it this way:
- Soviet tank production lines were largely created by Ford Motor Company during the 1930s.
- 28% of Soviet machine tools were supplied by Lend-Lease. I suspect this includes most tools used to build Tankograd.
- 45% of the copper for electrical wire and other such things was supplied by Lend-Lease.
- 56% of aluminum was supplied by Lend-Lease.
- Over half of the steel was manufactured in the USA.

Given that both tanks weighed about 32 tons and both tanks were largely created using American material and production methods it's to be expected that production costs would be similiar.

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LWD
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Re: Soviet tank cost

Post by LWD » 19 Oct 2010 19:36

Alejandro_ wrote:
However this only applies to the early model Panther auf D. The mass produced Panther auf A and auf G models would have been considerably less expensive. Quite a production achievement for such an effective tank.
I have tried comparing the cost of T-34 and Sherman based on cost and its quite misleading. For example, the US modify the exchange rate versus the rouble to favour soviet imports. Also, salaries in the US were higher.
As I understand it the price of the factories was also embeded in the Sherman cost. When this has come up in the past GFE was also a problem.

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