Reliability of Sovjet military deaths

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AriX
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Re: Reliability of Sovjet military deaths

Post by AriX » 26 Sep 2021 20:18

According to the "Book of Memory" of every post-soviet state, which consist data about the mobilised and conscripted man during WW2, the total number of manpower used by Soviet military during the conflict is c.40.000.000.
C.17.000.000 didn't return home. Only the fate c.8.500.000 of those is known.

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thorwald77
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Re: Reliability of Sovjet military deaths

Post by thorwald77 » 27 Sep 2021 15:55

The statistics in Krivosheev are based on the OMD database that lists the names of confirmed dead and missing. He deducts from the OMD figures those convicted (penal units and executed), deserters and released Pows that did not return to the USSR. Krivosheev does not include casualties from a separate reconciliation of those conscripted not in the OMD database. Krivosheev maintains that this difference is due to those reservists conscripted but who were never inducted. He points out that the records of the German military command were used to explain those casualties not recorded. The Russian MOD archive maintains a separate database of those reported dead or missing during the war not including deserters. Pows released are not deducted from the MOD archive figures.
The figures in Krivosheev are based on the OMD database available in the immediate postwar era, subsequent research has been able to identify additional confirmed dead and missing.

Reconciliation of Krivosheev
  • Killed 5,613,664
    Died 750,192
    DOW 1,233,562
    Disese 240,508
    POW/MIA 2,842,850
    Executed 71,754
    Suicide 28,600
    OMD database 10,781,130
    Less:
    Deserters (376,000)
    Remained in west (180,000)
    Convicts (557,000)
    Reservists (1,000,000)
    Krivosheev balance 8,668,130

Corrected 1993 figures
  • KIA 5,226,800
    Non Combat 555,500
    DOW 1,102,800
    MIA 500,000
    Pows 4,059,000
    Less:
    Deserters (376,800)
    Convicts (562,900)
    Returned to USSR (1,836,000)
    Krivosheev balance 8,668,400

Irrecoverable losses of conscripts
  • Killed 5,613,664
    Died 750,192
    DOW 1,233,562
    Disease 240,508
    MIA 2,842,850
    Executed 71,754
    Suicide 28,600
    OMD database 10,781,130

    Dead/Missing from German records 1,163,000
    Irrecoverable losses 11,944,130


Irrecoverable losses of conscripts
In (1,000)
  • KIA 5,187.1
    Non combat 541.9
    DOW 1,100.3
    NKVD border/Security 55.8
    MIA 500.0
    Convicts 557.7
    POWs 2,282.0
    Deserters 376.3
    Pows remaining in the west 180.0
    OMD database 10,781.1

    Dead/Missing from German records 1,163.0
    Irrecoverable losses 11,944.1


Military Archive
In (1,000)
  • Irrecoverable losses 11,944.1
    Misc adj 2.5
    Civilians in military 94.6
    Subtotal 12,041.2

    Deserters (376.3)
    Remained in west (179.9)
    Released Pows
    Golikov 2,016.4
    Filtration 348.6
    Military Archive 13,850.0


Military Archive
In (1,000)
  • OMD 10,781.1
    Deserters (376.3)
    Pows remaining in the west (179.9)
    Civilians in military 94.6
    Dead/Missing from German records 1,163.0
    Misc adj 2.5
    Released Pows
    Filtration 349.0
    Golikov 2,016.0
    Irrecoverable losses 13,850.0


Military Archive
In (1,000)
  • KIA 5,187.1
    Non combat 541.9
    DOW 1,100.3
    NKVD border/security 55.8
    Civilians in military 94.6
    Convicts 557.7
    Pows/MIA OMD 2,785.0
    Dead/Missing from German records 1,162.6
    Released Pows 2,365.0
    Irrecoverable losses 13,850.0


The data presented in official Russian sources is Дезинформация маскировка

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thorwald77
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Re: Reliability of Sovjet military deaths

Post by thorwald77 » 27 Sep 2021 16:31

Krivosheev lists the casualty data for 42 Fronts and 12 Navy fleets and groups. This information must be added down on a spreadsheet, Krivosheev does not provide totals.

Data Fronts & Fleets
  • KIA 5,184,749
    Non combat 534,273
    DOW 1,100,327
    MIA 4,452,336
    Irrecoverable losses 11,271,685
    Less
    Released Pows (2,365,000)
    NKVD border/security (144,000)
    Civilians in military (94,662)
    Krivosheev balance 8,668,023
This information is worthless, it does not agree to the OMD database, the reconciliation of conscripts and the military archive that lists the names of individual casualties. Krivosheev's story about duplications makes no sense.

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thorwald77
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Re: Reliability of Sovjet military deaths

Post by thorwald77 » 27 Sep 2021 19:21

Where's the Rest?

Numbers in (1,000)

1995 military balance
  • Krivosheev balance 8,668.4
    Forced labor in Germany 2,164.3
    Convicts 557.7
    Civilians in military 94.6
    Released Pows 2,365.0
    Archive balance 13,850.0
Ludskie Poteri pp.124-127
  • Krivosheev balance 8,668.4
    Forced labor in Germany 2,164.3
    Civilians exterminated 7,420.1
    Deaths famine disease 8,500.0
    Demographic loss 26,752.8
Civilians Exterminated
  • Civilians in military 94.6
    Convicts 562.9
    Deserters 376.8
    Remained in west 180.0
    Militia 150.0
    Partisans 250.0
    Civilians killed 4,500.0
    Siege of Leningrad 641.8
    Bombing of Stalingrad 40.0
    Bombing of Moscow 2.0
    2nd emmigration 451.0
    Emmigration of Germans 140.0
    Emmigration of Romanians 31.0
    Total 7,420.1

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Re: Reliability of Sovjet military deaths

Post by AriX » 30 Sep 2021 21:11

thorwald77 wrote:
27 Sep 2021 15:55
The statistics in Krivosheev are based on the OMD database that lists the names of confirmed dead and missing.
Krivosheev figures are included in those 17M what I had mentioned above.

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Re: Reliability of Sovjet military deaths

Post by Art » 30 Sep 2021 21:47

thorwald77 wrote:
27 Sep 2021 15:55
The statistics in Krivosheev are based on the OMD database that lists the names of confirmed dead and missing.
No, statistics in Krivosheyev are mostly based on number reports submitted by fronts and separate armies (fleets, flotillas etc). Which listed only the number of casualties but not names.
Quote from "Grif sekretnosti snyat":
"The number of personnel losses of the Red Army and Navy was determined by analysis and generalization of statistical materals of the General Staff, reports of fronts, fleets, armies, military districts and reports of the Central Military Medical Directorate".
There is no single word about "database" here.

How "reports of fronts" looked like you can see, for example, here:
https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=151400250

They were essetnially tables with numbers. Numbers of casualties given by Krivosheyev are produced just by summing up these tables. They didn't have anything to do with casualties lists submitted by military units and which are reproduced in the OBD. Both types of sources were obviously incomplete in the first phase of the war.
What is the number of casualties in the electronic database nobody knows for sure.

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thorwald77
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Re: Reliability of Sovjet military deaths

Post by thorwald77 » 01 Oct 2021 19:06

No Art, the official total of 11.944 million was adjusted by Krivosheev, he deducted convicts, deserters, conscripted reservists and estimated POW deaths based on Axis figures to arrive at his total of 8.668 million. The OMD total of 10.781 million does not include 1.163 million POW deaths based on Axis figures.

Irrecoverable losses of conscripts
  • KIA 5,187.1
    Non combat 541.9
    DOW 1,100.3
    NKVD border/Security 55.8
    MIA 500.0
    Convicts 557.7
    POWs per Krivosheev 1,282.0
    Conscripted reservists 1,000.0
    Deserters 376.3
    Remained in west 180.0
    OMD database 10,781.1

    Pow deaths from Axis records 1,163.0
    Irrecoverable losses 11,944.1
Irrecoverable losses of conscripts
  • KIA 5,187.1
    Non combat 541.9
    DOW 1,100.3
    NKVD border/Security 55.8
    MIA 500.0
    POWs 1,283.0
    Krivosheev balance 8,668.1

    Reservists 1,000.0
    Pows From Axis records 1,162.0
    Deserters 376.3
    Convicts 557.7
    Remained in west 180.0
    Irrecoverable losses 11,944.1


Reconciliation of Krovosheev
  • OMD database
    Killed 5,613,664
    Died 750,192
    DOW 1,233,562
    Disease 240,508
    POW/MIA 2,842,850
    Executed 71,754
    Suicide 28,600
    Total 10,781,130

    Krivosheev adjustments
    Deserters (376,000)
    Remained in west (180,000)
    Convicts (557,000)
    Reservists (1,000,000)
    Krivosheev balance 8,668,130[/list]

    Field reports 1945
    • Army 10,008,400
      DOW 1,100,000
      Navy 153,770
      Far East 12,030
      Subtotal 11,274,200

      Adjustments
      Reservists 500,000
      Pow freed to 10/44 (349,000)
      Pow Fred after 10/44 (2,016,400)
      Remained in west 180,000
      Convicts 562,900
      Deserters 376,300
      NKVD border/security 159,100
      Civilians in military 94,000
      OMD database 10,781,100

      Pows From Axis records 1,163,000
      Irrecoverable losses 11,944,100
    ,

    Note well Krivosheev was working with the OMD figures at the end of the war 10.781 million, subsequent research has adjusted this balance upward.

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thorwald77
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Re: Reliability of Sovjet military deaths

Post by thorwald77 » 01 Oct 2021 19:25

Also it must be pointed out that the detailed figures presented by Krivosheev for the individual fronts and fleets are not reliable. You must add the data for the 64 fronts and fleets on a spreadsheet.

Data Fronts & Fleets
KIA 5,184,749
Non combat 534,273
DOW 1,100,327
MIA/POW 4,452,336
Subtotal in Krivosheev 11,271,685

Adjustments
Reservists 500,000
Freed to 10/44 (349,000)
Freed after 10/44 (2,016,000)
Remained in west 180,000
Convicts 562,900
Deserters 376,300
NKVD border/security 159,100
Civilians in military 94,662
OMD database 10,779,647

Pows From Axis records 1,164,500
Irrecoverable losses 11,944,147

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thorwald77
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Re: Reliability of Sovjet military deaths

Post by thorwald77 » 01 Oct 2021 20:43

Krivosheev tells us a story about "duplications" and those "re-conscripted" to explain away the hidden details of his difference. The Russian military archive has records of the individual names of "about 13.850 million" irrecoverable losses during the war not including deserters. Gullible academics in the west regurgitate Krivosheev's statistic of 8.668 million war dead. :lol:

Military Archive
  • OMD 10,781.1
    Deserters (376.3)
    Remained im west (179.9)
    Civilians in military 94.6
    Pows From Axis records 1,164.3

    Freed Pows
    Filtration 349.2
    Golikov 2,016.4
    Military archive 13,849.4
Filtration does not include c.5K Pows who died in hospital

Military Archive
  • Krivosheev balance 8,668.4
    Forced labor in Germany 2,164.3
    Convicts 557.7
    Civilians in military 94.6
    Released Pows 2,365.0
    Archive balance 13,850.0
Military Archive
  • Irrecoverable losses 11,944.1
    Civilians in military 94.6
    Subtotal 12,038.7

    Deserters (376.3)
    Remained in west (179.9)

    Released Pows
    Golikov 2,016.4
    Filtration 349.2
    Military Archive 13,848.1

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thorwald77
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Re: Reliability of Sovjet military deaths

Post by thorwald77 » 01 Oct 2021 22:13

Please do not misunderstand me, I have outlined the details of what the Russian MOD has done. I am not saying that the figures are correct. They really need to provide the original documents to back up their figures. In any case the MOD gives us a great annual mickey mouse parade every year.

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Re: Reliability of Sovjet military deaths

Post by thorwald77 » 02 Oct 2021 03:45

To make this absolutely clear I am posting a reconciliation of POWs, the Soviets added 1.163 million to the OMD balance of 10.783 million to arrive at irrecoverable losses of 11.944 million

POW reconciliation
  • POW Germany 5,734,528
    POW Romania 82,090
    POW Finland 64,188
    Escaped Germany (66,694)
    Escaped Romania (3,331)
    Escaped Finland (712)
    POW held 5,810,069

    Filtration died 5,000
    Filtration freed (354,000)
    Golikov freed (2,016,000)
    POW losses 3,445,069

    MIA 500,000
    POW balance 3,945,069

    KIA 5,187,100
    Non combat 541,900
    DOW 1,100,300
    Border/Security 55,800
    Convicts 557,700
    Deserters 376,300
    Remained im west 180,000
    Irrecoverable losses 11,944,169
POWsAxis records
  • POW Germany 5,734
    POW Romania 82
    POW Finland 64
    Escaped (70)
    Axis records balance 5,810

    Soviet Adjs
    Filtration released (349)
    Golikov released (2,016)
    From Axis records (1,162)
    Reservist Pows (1,000)
    Krivoshev Pows (1,283)
    Axis records balance (5,810)

    From Axis records (1,162)
    Reservist Pows (1,000)
    Krivoshev Pows (1,283)
    Soviet balance (3,445)

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Re: Reliability of Sovjet military deaths

Post by Art » 02 Oct 2021 11:06

thorwald77 wrote:
01 Oct 2021 19:06
OMD database
Killed 5,613,664
Died 750,192
DOW 1,233,562
Disease 240,508
POW/MIA 2,842,850
Executed 71,754
Suicide 28,600
Total 10,781,130
Again, these are not the numbers of casualties. Attempts to recocnile them with offical sources are simply meaningless arithmetic exercises.

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thorwald77
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Re: Reliability of Sovjet military deaths

Post by thorwald77 » 02 Oct 2021 12:32

Art wrote
Attempts to recocnile them with offical sources are simply meaningless arithmetic exercises
Art what are the official sources?

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Re: Reliability of Sovjet military deaths

Post by Art » 02 Oct 2021 14:58

"Grif sekretnosti snyat", "Soviet casualties and combat losses..." and the following books.

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Re: Reliability of Sovjet military deaths

Post by thorwald77 » 02 Oct 2021 17:57

"Grif sekretnosti snyat", is not a reliable source, the authors omit 3.7 million dead and missing military and paramilitary casualties.
1-Honorable deaths, 2.164 million "forced labor in Germany", 146,000 militia and 250,00 partisans.
2-Dishonorable losses-422,700 convicts in penal units, 135,000 convicts executed, 376,300 deserters and 179,000 released Pows that did return to the USSR.

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