Stalingrad for Ever - 60 year anniversary

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Krasnaya Zvezda
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Stalingrad for Ever - 60 year anniversary

Post by Krasnaya Zvezda » 02 Feb 2003 16:55

60 years today of the total defeat and surrender of German army, the most devastating battle in the history of human kind:


http://english.pravda.ru/main/2003/01/31/42856.html

http://english.pravda.ru/main/2003/02/01/42857.html

Also AP news:






VOLGOGRAD, Russia - Aging Soviet veterans watched Sunday while young Russian soldiers marched to mark the 60th anniversary of the Battle of Stalingrad, a blood-drenched World War II turning point.





The war remains a powerful source of pride and pain in Russia that lost millions of soldiers and civilians in the fight against Nazi Germany.


Some 250 veterans from across Russia, joined by political leaders and foreign ambassadors, including Germany's, placed flowers and wreaths at a memorial in downtown Volgograd ? formerly Stalingrad ? before watching a parade of soldiers in uniforms tailored like those worn by Soviet troops of 60 years ago.


Minutes of silence were held throughout the city, and the ceremony shifted to a massive monument ? a woman representing the Motherland, holding a sword high in the air and towering near a mass grave of 35,000 veterans and civilians of the victims who died defending the city against Nazi invaders.


President Vladimir Putin (news - web sites) arrived laid a wreath, standing silently and then bending to one knee, the ITAR-Tass news agency reported.


Putin also placed a bouquet at the grave of a marshal who died in the 1942-43 battle. The president attended with three Stalingrad survivors whose numbers are fast dwindling.


"I cried this morning because only three World War II veterans are left alive in our village and only I was able to come here. The others are ill," said Valentin Antyukheyev, 80, a resident of Krasnooktybrskaya outside Volgograd. "I remember how we fought for every meter of this soil and how badly the city was ruined."


Ambassadors from the United States, Britain, Germany, Italy and other nations that fought in World War II took part in the ceremonies marking 60 years since the end of the grueling battle, which came Feb. 2, 1943, when German Field Marshal Friedrich Paulus surrendered in the basement of the city's main department store.


One million Soviet soldiers and civilians were killed in the fighting in and around the city, while hundreds of thousands of German soldiers died at Stalingrad or in prison camps afterward.


The German defeat marked a turning point in the war, crushing Hitler's drive to isolate the Soviet heartland from the southern oil fields, and the battle remains a powerful symbol of Soviet courage and perseverance during the second world war, which is often called the Great Patriotic War in Russia.


The anniversary ceremonies came amid a movement to restore the name Stalingrad to this industrial river city 550 miles southeast of Moscow. Formerly called Tsaritsyn, the city became Stalingrad in 1925, and then Volgograd in 1961 when the Soviet Union began facing up to the horrors of Stalin's rule.


German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder offered a message of sympathy Saturday on behalf of his country. "Stalingrad is a symbol for the immeasurable suffering that the attack of Nazi Germany on the Soviet Union brought upon millions of people. The events of Stalingrad will remain in the collective memories of our peoples," it said.
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witness
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Post by witness » 02 Feb 2003 17:23

My father in law took part in this battle as a reconaissanse leutenant .
( taking "yaziki")
He used to say it was quite a slaughter-house.
They were the real heroes..

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Post by Panzermahn » 03 Feb 2003 08:09

Yes, Battle of Stalingrad...the source of pride and Russian nationalism in the Great Patriotic war..Let's not forget German troops who fought as heroically during the last days of Stalingrad where they were short of supplies and ammo...I remember a part of the narrative that a certain staff from a army corps from the 6th Army shot themselves after a toast of drink rather than surrendering to the russians...

During the Battle of Stalingrad, everybody kept mentioning that the Russians captured more than 250,000 Germans and their allies but do the Russians themselves published from their own records of their casualties...Not even the current Russian government released their archive regarding their casualties during battle of stalingrad but some historians estimate about half a million russian casualties during battle of stalingrad

In fact, to military theoreticians, battle of stalingrad is in fact, a brilliant defensive actions by the germans against the russian although the 6th Army were captured by the russians...Why? because the Russians concentrated on taking stalingrad regardless the cost while Hitler insisted his troops to fight to the end..Had Hitler allowed the 6th Army to withdraw or breakout, the entire southern front including Army group south and north ukraine would be dangerously exposed to the russians enveloping them....It was the 6th Army who delayed the Russians long enough by holding fast to Stalingrad to allowed von manstein to stablize the southern front......I know many Russian members of the forum would disagree with me but this is one of the truth from different MILITARY perspective

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Post by ISU-152 » 03 Feb 2003 12:10

panzermahn wrote:
In fact, to military theoreticians, battle of stalingrad is in fact, a brilliant defensive actions by the germans against the russian although the 6th Army were captured by the russians...Why? because the Russians concentrated on taking stalingrad regardless the cost while Hitler insisted his troops to fight to the end..Had Hitler allowed the 6th Army to withdraw or breakout, the entire southern front including Army group south and north ukraine would be dangerously exposed to the russians enveloping them....It was the 6th Army who delayed the Russians long enough by holding fast to Stalingrad to allowed von manstein to stablize the southern front......I know many Russian members of the forum would disagree with me but this is one of the truth from different MILITARY perspective


Why? I agree with you panzermahn, the wise solution would be to starve to death those surrounded troops rather than attack them but Stalin needed a sound and strong victory at the expense of his troops. If the troops committed to the pocket were sent to attack westwards then who knows we might have had the end of the war by 1944. :wink:

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Post by Krasnaya Zvezda » 03 Feb 2003 16:28

panzermahn wrote:Yes, Battle of Stalingrad...the source of pride and Russian nationalism in the Great Patriotic war..Let's not forget German troops who fought as heroically during the last days of Stalingrad where they were short of supplies and ammo...I remember a part of the narrative that a certain staff from a army corps from the 6th Army shot themselves after a toast of drink rather than surrendering to the russians...

During the Battle of Stalingrad, everybody kept mentioning that the Russians captured more than 250,000 Germans and their allies but do the Russians themselves published from their own records of their casualties...Not even the current Russian government released their archive regarding their casualties during battle of stalingrad but some historians estimate about half a million russian casualties during battle of stalingrad

In fact, to military theoreticians, battle of stalingrad is in fact, a brilliant defensive actions by the germans against the russian although the 6th Army were captured by the russians...Why? because the Russians concentrated on taking stalingrad regardless the cost while Hitler insisted his troops to fight to the end..Had Hitler allowed the 6th Army to withdraw or breakout, the entire southern front including Army group south and north ukraine would be dangerously exposed to the russians enveloping them....It was the 6th Army who delayed the Russians long enough by holding fast to Stalingrad to allowed von manstein to stablize the southern front......I know many Russian members of the forum would disagree with me but this is one of the truth from different MILITARY perspective



Brilliant defensive actions by the Germans - Battle of stalingrad?? Correct me if I am wrong, I thought Germans invaded Russia and Germans attacked Stalingrad ? Now, panzermahn, you have to define what do you mean defense is! I mean if you let say challenge Mike Tyson and smack him couple of times, and the guy than turnes around and blows your brains out and knocks you down. Are you than defending yourself or you are just being stupid? I mean you have to tell us if you think you are stupid so we stop wasting time on this.

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Post by Panzermahn » 03 Feb 2003 17:16

Brilliant defensive actions by the Germans - Battle of stalingrad?? Correct me if I am wrong, I thought Germans invaded Russia and Germans attacked Stalingrad ? Now, panzermahn, you have to define what do you mean defense is! I mean if you let say challenge Mike Tyson and smack him couple of times, and the guy than turnes around and blows your brains out and knocks you down. Are you than defending yourself or you are just being stupid? I mean you have to tell us if you think you are stupid so we stop wasting time on this.



Before making any statements, i guess u better make some research on military tactics and strategy during WW2...If you read a book by the US Army on the German operations of the encircled pockets in Russia which i think your small bolshevik brain without and medula oblongata would find it incomprehensible, that some US military analyst found that trapped german troops in a pocket, in certain cases did tie down a large number of enemy troops that is vital to other areas of operation...i guess you're just a russian kid studying the glories of stalinism and bolshevism in junior school..How old are you, Ivan?

maybe i don't mean the phrase "brilliant defensive action" literally..but i certainly did meant it metaphorically...But i cant blame you, coz you came from a country where russian is the main language and you don't take Oxford's 1119 english paper...

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Post by Krasnaya Zvezda » 03 Feb 2003 18:28

Before making any statements, i guess u better make some research on military tactics and strategy during WW2...


I did ! It did confirms what you are saying that Germans tied down so many Russian troops that they were advancing with the vast majority of their troops everywhere else. They tought so highly of their 6th Army, they knew it can hold many Russian troppst so they did not even bother to relieve the army.

If you read a book by the US Army on the German operations of the encircled pockets in Russia which i think your small bolshevik brain without and medula oblongata would find it incomprehensible


Medulla oblongata or the brain stem is part of human brain that contains no higher intellectual functions. It only has the respiratory centers, reticulate substance (for sleeping ) , swallawing functions and so on. It is the cortex that has the higher functions. But you are right, I am Russian I do not need medulla oblongata. As you can see our cortex is sufficient enough and we disregard our animal needs to focus only on the superiority.

How old are you, Ivan?

Ivan is indeed my real name, you are correct again! What is yours?

But i cant blame you, coz you came from a country where russian is the main language and you don't take Oxford's 1119 english paper...


Again correct! In Russia , russian is the official language! You never seize to amaze me. But as you can see, multiple Russians here are giving you answers in English. I can also talk to you in German if you prefer? Do you know Russian though or one or two extra-languages for a non Russian is enough?

Now just back to the topic. I think this battle is important. And if you do not understand that, than fine. More than 2 million people died here, GErmans and Russians and that says everything. It is bad that most of the world does not know the sufferings of these people here, German and Russian.

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Post by Ogorek » 03 Feb 2003 19:00

Panzermahn

Your remarks to Krasnaia Zvezda were uncalled for.... especially after posting the VERY FIRST intelligent post I have ever seen coming from the "PanzerBunker"

Have fun now... Panzermahn... you might leave the bunker once in a while and get some perspective on the real world.....

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Post by Karl da Kraut » 03 Feb 2003 19:15

Krasnaya Zvezda wrote:

Brilliant defensive actions by the Germans - Battle of stalingrad?? Correct me if I am wrong, I thought Germans invaded Russia and Germans attacked Stalingrad ?


I guess you've misunderstood Panzermahn there. Panzermahn didn't claim that the USSR was the aggresor starting the war. He just praised the tactics used by the 6th Army, which were of course of a defensive nature once this force was encircled.

Other than that I agree with your ironical way of dealing with Panzermahn's nonsense. If more members of the board would've your attitude, it be more peaceful here... and more amusing.

ISU 152 wrote:

Why? I agree with you panzermahn, the wise solution would be to starve to death those surrounded troops rather than attack them but Stalin needed a sound and strong victory at the expense of his troops. If the troops committed to the pocket were sent to attack westwards then who knows we might have had the end of the war by 1944.


Well, I disagree. I think the Soviet leadership had - especially considering the previous course of the war - any reason to fear that the Wehrmacht would be able to relieve the 6th army if given enough time. Also remember that v. Manstein's strike to relieve the encircled troops came dangerously close to Stalingrad.

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Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 04 Feb 2003 03:49

Before making any statements, i guess u better make some research on military tactics and strategy during WW2...If you read a book by the US Army on the German operations of the encircled pockets in Russia which i think your small bolshevik brain without and medula oblongata would find it incomprehensible, that some US military analyst found that trapped german troops in a pocket, in certain cases did tie down a large number of enemy troops that is vital to other areas of operation...i
note to mentall midget aka panzermahn: large number of troops of any army, when encircled, tie down significant numbers on the opposing side. But hey, comprehension of that conception requires knowledge of history, logic, and in general not being a dumbass . You meet none of above.
Last edited by Oleg Grigoryev on 04 Feb 2003 04:07, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 04 Feb 2003 03:53

Karl da Kraut wrote:Krasnaya Zvezda wrote:

Brilliant defensive actions by the Germans - Battle of stalingrad?? Correct me if I am wrong, I thought Germans invaded Russia and Germans attacked Stalingrad ?


I guess you've misunderstood Panzermahn there. Panzermahn didn't claim that the USSR was the aggresor starting the war. He just praised the tactics used by the 6th Army, which were of course of a defensive nature once this force was encircled.

Other than that I agree with your ironical way of dealing with Panzermahn's nonsense. If more members of the board would've your attitude, it be more peaceful here... and more amusing.

ISU 152 wrote:

Why? I agree with you panzermahn, the wise solution would be to starve to death those surrounded troops rather than attack them but Stalin needed a sound and strong victory at the expense of his troops. If the troops committed to the pocket were sent to attack westwards then who knows we might have had the end of the war by 1944.


Well, I disagree. I think the Soviet leadership had - especially considering the previous course of the war - any reason to fear that the Wehrmacht would be able to relieve the 6th army if given enough time. Also remember that v. Manstein's strike to relieve the encircled troops came dangerously close to Stalingrad.


He just praised the tactics used by the 6th Army, which were of course of a defensive nature once this force was encircled.
In your opinion was there something that deserved the utilization of adjective “brilliant”?

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Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 04 Feb 2003 04:06

panzermahn wrote:Yes, Battle of Stalingrad...the source of pride and Russian nationalism in the Great Patriotic war..Let's not forget German troops who fought as heroically during the last days of Stalingrad where they were short of supplies and ammo...I remember a part of the narrative that a certain staff from a army corps from the 6th Army shot themselves after a toast of drink rather than surrendering to the russians...

During the Battle of Stalingrad, everybody kept mentioning that the Russians captured more than 250,000 Germans and their allies but do the Russians themselves published from their own records of their casualties...Not even the current Russian government released their archive regarding their casualties during battle of stalingrad but some historians estimate about half a million russian casualties during battle of stalingrad

In fact, to military theoreticians, battle of stalingrad is in fact, a brilliant defensive actions by the germans against the russian although the 6th Army were captured by the russians...Why? because the Russians concentrated on taking stalingrad regardless the cost while Hitler insisted his troops to fight to the end..Had Hitler allowed the 6th Army to withdraw or breakout, the entire southern front including Army group south and north ukraine would be dangerously exposed to the russians enveloping them....It was the 6th Army who delayed the Russians long enough by holding fast to Stalingrad to allowed von manstein to stablize the southern front......I know many Russian members of the forum would disagree with me but this is one of the truth from different MILITARY perspective


Read the books, midget, they help you (well I probably making too much of the assumption) but anyway Soviet Casualties and Combat Losses in the Twentieth Century
by G. F. Krivosheev (Editor), John R. Erickson, Christine Barnard (Translator)

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