Lucy Spy Ring

[F/PAUL]

Personally I am not a big fan of the (I love) Lucy Spy Ring. If the information it supplied was so accurate and so detailed, that the russians knew the time and place of the attack then the russian army should have been able to administer a much more severe hammering to the Germans in 1943 right at the beginning of the their offensive. The fact that the Kursk Offensive met with some initial (and in the southern part of the sailent, significant) success makes one wonder. Who dropped the ball here, the russian army, Lucy, Stalin or perhaps we should blame Bozo the Clown.

[bf109 emil]

Who dropped the ball here, the russian army, Lucy, Stalin or perhaps we should blame Bozo the Clown.

Bozo being the German hierarchy that allowed the Soviets to dig hundreds of miles of trenches, lay hundreds of thousands of mines, set of IIRC 6 fields of defensive lines all in the known locale prior to a German attack, which was known and allowed to be constructed while Germany waited for the wonder weapon, er Panther which showed little merit at Kursk other then teething problems and breakdowns. Any chance of Germany taking the offensive for the remainder of the war was a direct result of Kursk and Lucy Spy ring pinpointing the locale, strengths and plans of the Wehrmacht months prior to Zitadelle...I think history shows that the ball was not dropped by Russia, but from Kursk onward remained in the Russian court...

[F/PAUL]

Who dropped the ball here, the russian army, Lucy, Stalin or perhaps we should blame Bozo the Clown.

Bozo being the German hierarchy that allowed the Soviets to dig hundreds of miles of trenches, lay hundreds of thousands of mines, set of IIRC 6 fields of defensive lines all in the known locale prior to a German attack, which was known and allowed to be constructed while Germany waited for the wonder weapon, er Panther which showed little merit at Kursk other then teething problems and breakdowns. Any chance of Germany taking the offensive for the remainder of the war was a direct result of Kursk and Lucy Spy ring pinpointing the locale, strengths and plans of the Wehrmacht months prior to Zitadelle...I think history shows that the ball was not dropped by Russia, but from Kursk onward remained in the Russian court...

Maybe I'm beating a dead horse with this but I'll try this one more time and then quit. What I'm alluding to is that if the russians were so well informed by Lucy of the German plan to attack Kursk (Ie time, place, dispositions, personnel, equipment etc) it should have been possible for the russians to launch a massive spoiling attack, catching the germans in the assembly areas immediately before the battle. Why let them attack when you can totally unhinge them prior to. This would have wiped out ALL thre offensive power of both Army Group Center and South, thus shortening the war by over a year.

[Michael Kenny]

A map showing how badly the Soviets did.

The small dark area is the two German initial advances

The striped area is the first Soviet attacks.

The large grey area is the total Soviet gains after the offensive was over.

[Oleg Grigoryev]

Who dropped the ball here, the russian army, Lucy, Stalin or perhaps we should blame Bozo the Clown.

Bozo being the German hierarchy that allowed the Soviets to dig hundreds of miles of trenches, lay hundreds of thousands of mines, set of IIRC 6 fields of defensive lines all in the known locale prior to a German attack, which was known and allowed to be constructed while Germany waited for the wonder weapon, er Panther which showed little merit at Kursk other then teething problems and breakdowns. Any chance of Germany taking the offensive for the remainder of the war was a direct result of Kursk and Lucy Spy ring pinpointing the locale, strengths and plans of the Wehrmacht months prior to Zitadelle...I think history shows that the ball was not dropped by Russia, but from Kursk onward remained in the Russian court...

Maybe I'm beating a dead horse with this but I'll try this one more time and then quit. What I'm alluding to is that if the russians were so well informed by Lucy of the German plan to attack Kursk (Ie time, place, dispositions, personnel, equipment etc) it should have been possible for the russians to launch a massive spoiling attack, catching the germans in the assembly areas immediately before the battle. Why let them attack when you can totally unhinge them prior to. This would have wiped out ALL thre offensive power of both Army Group Center and South, thus shortening the war by over a year.

Have you ever even read a single book on Kursk? I know every single one I read explains in details why it was decided by Soviet high command to assume initially defensive posture. Zhukov wrote in a letter to Stalin on 8 April 1943:

I consider it inadvisable for our forces to go over to the offensive in the very first days of the campaign in order to forestall the enemy. It would be better to make the enemy exhaust himself against our defences, and knock out his tanks and then, bringing up fresh reserves, to go over to the general offensive which would finally finish off his main force

[F/PAUL]

Gee Oleg, worshipping at the alter of Zhukov. Not surprised. I quit!!

[Oleg Grigoryev]

Promise?

[bf109 emil]

Have you ever even read a single book on Kursk? I know every single one I read explains in details why it was decided by Soviet high command to assume initially defensive posture. Zhukov wrote in a letter to Stalin on 8 April 1943:

Many...unfortunately most are tainted or have false assumptions of a great tank battle and swirling clouds of dust... but thanks to Lucy spy ring, the locale and areas for Russia to build their defenses prior to Zitadelle where well know before hand and could be constructed accordingly as in any of the books you read,does it show that Stalin did not believe the German offensive was to be aimed at Kursk and only after intelligence from Lucy spy ring did he accept this as the local or area that indeed was to be where Germany was to launch her offensive as Stalin prior to this believed the German offensive would be towards Moscow

but hey you maybe right and Zhukov's preparations which where enormous might have come from his ability alone in determining the exact area and location of the German offensive which allowed him to prepare the following defensives on his own without a pre-determined source or aid from the lucy spy ring which included...

The initial defense sectors were strengthened by five, interconnected trench lines, interlinked with strong points and anti tank positions. The anti tank positions were organized in a series of strong points, placed in a checker board style, at half mile intervals and up to five miles in depth. They were guarded by ditches and minefields and designed to channel the attackers into their fields of fire. Over 500 miles of barbed wire entanglement and anti tank obstacles were prepared and over 1 million anti personnel and anti tank mines were laid. These defense lines were stretched up to 50 miles in depth. In addition, a considerable deception plan was used to confuse German intelligence. Great efforts were made in the creation of false troop concentrations, simulated radio nets, and the construction of dummy armored and aircraft concentrations and the construction of dummy airfields. Strict radio silence was maintained and all troop movements were conducted at night, under strict blackout conditions. In the German rear areas Partisan activity wrought havoc. In June over 1000 attacks against railways took place including the destruction of 44 bridges and almost 300 locomotives. ...hmmm either a good guess on Zhukov's part or advanced knowledge either/or it was a monumental task...

but hey in the many books you read, here is a source for many myths that have been written about...

-Myth #1: CITADEL was one distinct battle, primarily between tank forces of both sides.
-Myth #2: The battle at Prokhorovka was the largest tank battle in history.
-Myth #3: Russian tanks rammed German ones.
-Myth #4: Prokhorovka was the "death ride of the Panzers" because the Germans lost so many tanks.
-Myth #5: The weather at Prokhorovka was clear and dry.
-Myth #6: German forces were heavily supplied with Panthers, Tigers, and Elefant tank destroyers.
-Myth #7: Hitler called off CITADEL because the Americans and British landed on Sicily and the Germans needed to shift forces to the western front.
-Myth #8: The Germans almost won, or they could have won.

but ya a couple of good books to read Oleg are:
-The Battle of Kursk...Written by David Glantz. ISBN No: 0700609784
-The Battle of Kursk: Operation Citadel 1943...Written by Robin Cross ISBN No: 014139109X

I would suggest both of these

[Oleg Grigoryev]

Have you ever even read a single book on Kursk? I know every single one I read explains in details why it was decided by Soviet high command to assume initially defensive posture. Zhukov wrote in a letter to Stalin on 8 April 1943:

Many...unfortunately most are tainted or have false assumptions of a great tank battle and swirling clouds of dust... but thanks to Lucy spy ring, the locale and areas for Russia to build their defenses prior to Zitadelle where well know before hand and could be constructed accordingly as in any of the books you read,does it show that Stalin did not believe the German offensive was to be aimed at Kursk and only after intelligence from Lucy spy ring did he accept this as the local or area that indeed was to be where Germany was to launch her offensive as Stalin prior to this believed the German offensive would be towards Moscow

but hey you maybe right and Zhukov's preparations which where enormous might have come from his ability alone in determining the exact area and location of the German offensive which allowed him to prepare the following defensives on his own without a pre-determined source or aid from the lucy spy ring which included...

The initial defense sectors were strengthened by five, interconnected trench lines, interlinked with strong points and anti tank positions. The anti tank positions were organized in a series of strong points, placed in a checker board style, at half mile intervals and up to five miles in depth. They were guarded by ditches and minefields and designed to channel the attackers into their fields of fire. Over 500 miles of barbed wire entanglement and anti tank obstacles were prepared and over 1 million anti personnel and anti tank mines were laid. These defense lines were stretched up to 50 miles in depth. In addition, a considerable deception plan was used to confuse German intelligence. Great efforts were made in the creation of false troop concentrations, simulated radio nets, and the construction of dummy armored and aircraft concentrations and the construction of dummy airfields. Strict radio silence was maintained and all troop movements were conducted at night, under strict blackout conditions. In the German rear areas Partisan activity wrought havoc. In June over 1000 attacks against railways took place including the destruction of 44 bridges and almost 300 locomotives. ...hmmm either a good guess on Zhukov's part or advanced knowledge either/or it was a monumental task...

but hey in the many books you read, here is a source for many myths that have been written about...

-Myth #1: CITADEL was one distinct battle, primarily between tank forces of both sides.
-Myth #2: The battle at Prokhorovka was the largest tank battle in history.
-Myth #3: Russian tanks rammed German ones.
-Myth #4: Prokhorovka was the "death ride of the Panzers" because the Germans lost so many tanks.
-Myth #5: The weather at Prokhorovka was clear and dry.
-Myth #6: German forces were heavily supplied with Panthers, Tigers, and Elefant tank destroyers.
-Myth #7: Hitler called off CITADEL because the Americans and British landed on Sicily and the Germans needed to shift forces to the western front.
-Myth #8: The Germans almost won, or they could have won.

but ya a couple of good books to read Oleg are:
-The Battle of Kursk...Written by David Glantz. ISBN No: 0700609784
-The Battle of Kursk: Operation Citadel 1943...Written by Robin Cross ISBN No: 014139109X

I would suggest both of these

Alternatively you can cut the condescending nonsense, assuming what I have and have not read, and actually look up the book you recommended - Namely the Glantz work, specifically Apendix F of the book "Key Soviet Documents" that contains something called Zhukov Strategic Assessment. Additionally you may want to browse through chapter 2 of the book - "The Red Army in 1943" that explains hows and whys Soviet defensive posture has developed.

[bf109 emil]

Have you ever even read a single book on Kursk? I know every single one I read explains in details why it was decided by Soviet high command to assume initially defensive posture. Zhukov wrote in a letter to Stalin on 8 April 1943:

Many...unfortunately most are tainted or have false assumptions of a great tank battle and swirling clouds of dust... but thanks to Lucy spy ring, the locale and areas for Russia to build their defenses prior to Zitadelle where well know before hand and could be constructed accordingly as in any of the books you read,does it show that Stalin did not believe the German offensive was to be aimed at Kursk and only after intelligence from Lucy spy ring did he accept this as the local or area that indeed was to be where Germany was to launch her offensive as Stalin prior to this believed the German offensive would be towards Moscow

but hey you maybe right and Zhukov's preparations which where enormous might have come from his ability alone in determining the exact area and location of the German offensive which allowed him to prepare the following defensives on his own without a pre-determined source or aid from the lucy spy ring which included...

The initial defense sectors were strengthened by five, interconnected trench lines, interlinked with strong points and anti tank positions. The anti tank positions were organized in a series of strong points, placed in a checker board style, at half mile intervals and up to five miles in depth. They were guarded by ditches and minefields and designed to channel the attackers into their fields of fire. Over 500 miles of barbed wire entanglement and anti tank obstacles were prepared and over 1 million anti personnel and anti tank mines were laid. These defense lines were stretched up to 50 miles in depth. In addition, a considerable deception plan was used to confuse German intelligence. Great efforts were made in the creation of false troop concentrations, simulated radio nets, and the construction of dummy armored and aircraft concentrations and the construction of dummy airfields. Strict radio silence was maintained and all troop movements were conducted at night, under strict blackout conditions. In the German rear areas Partisan activity wrought havoc. In June over 1000 attacks against railways took place including the destruction of 44 bridges and almost 300 locomotives. ...hmmm either a good guess on Zhukov's part or advanced knowledge either/or it was a monumental task...

but hey in the many books you read, here is a source for many myths that have been written about...

-Myth #1: CITADEL was one distinct battle, primarily between tank forces of both sides.
-Myth #2: The battle at Prokhorovka was the largest tank battle in history.
-Myth #3: Russian tanks rammed German ones.
-Myth #4: Prokhorovka was the "death ride of the Panzers" because the Germans lost so many tanks.
-Myth #5: The weather at Prokhorovka was clear and dry.
-Myth #6: German forces were heavily supplied with Panthers, Tigers, and Elefant tank destroyers.
-Myth #7: Hitler called off CITADEL because the Americans and British landed on Sicily and the Germans needed to shift forces to the western front.
-Myth #8: The Germans almost won, or they could have won.

but ya a couple of good books to read Oleg are:
-The Battle of Kursk...Written by David Glantz. ISBN No: 0700609784
-The Battle of Kursk: Operation Citadel 1943...Written by Robin Cross ISBN No: 014139109X

I would suggest both of these

Alternatively you can cut the condescending nonsense, assuming what I have and have not read, and actually look up the book you recommended - Namely the Glantz work, specifically Apendix F of the book "Key Soviet Documents" that contains something called Zhukov Strategic Assessment. Additionally you may want to browse through chapter 2 of the book - "The Red Army in 1943" that explains hows and whys Soviet defensive posture has developed.

I didn't assume anything other then suggesting of 2 works regarding Kursk...but to answer your earlier comment again, yes I have read books on Kursk, but your asking doesn't seem condescending to me, as to why it does to yourself, perhaps the pedestal is to high?

and does the book say specifically why and how the area at Kursk was sought to be a for coming battle and thus led to numerous soviet defense measures placed at the local of a future battle which was known prior to building of these defense measures...

[Oleg Grigoryev]

I didn't assume anything other then suggesting of 2 works regarding Kursk...but to answer your earlier comment again, yes I have read books on Kursk, but your asking doesn't seem condescending to me, as to why it does to yourself, perhaps the pedestal is to high?

Really? You did not? So when you wrote :

but hey in the many books you read, here is a source for many myths that have been written about...

that was what exactly? It seems to me that you even did not notice what my

Have you ever even read a single book on Kursk?

was not even directed at you but was written in response to F/PAUL

Maybe I'm beating a dead horse with this but I'll try this one more time and then quit. What I'm alluding to is that if the russians were so well informed by Lucy of the German plan to attack Kursk (Ie time, place, dispositions, personnel, equipment etc) it should have been possible for the russians to launch a massive spoiling attack, catching the germans in the assembly areas immediately before the battle. Why let them attack when you can totally unhinge them prior to. This would have wiped out ALL thre offensive power of both Army Group Center and South, thus shortening the war by over a year.

You also wrote

and does the book say specifically why and how the area at Kursk was sought to be a for coming battle and thus led to numerous soviet defense measures placed at the local of a future battle which was known prior to building of these defense measures...

Since you suggested work by Glantz – how come you seeming don't know if it has this info or not?

[bf109 emil]

Since you suggested work by Glantz – how come you seeming don't know if it has this info or not?

I do, just curious as to whether your copy does!!

and also your earlier quote, from wiki that sources V.M Kulish & A.J.P Taylor 1974 book...

oleg quoted
I consider it inadvisable for our forces to go over to the offensive in the very first days of the campaign in order to forestall the enemy. It would be better to make the enemy exhaust himself against our defences, and knock out his tanks and then, bringing up fresh reserves, to go over to the general offensive which would finally finish off his main force.

since I do not have this book, perhaps you can reference whether any of Zhukov's extensive defense measures came via the precise location from the Lucy Spy Ring as well in this source/book...

I will try to order this in, but with spring break-up here and the incomplete knowledge of where camp might now be, it maybe awhile before i can locate or receive this work to check as well...

cheers.

[Simon Gunson]

Lucy was said to have been under arrest in Germany from 19 May 1944 to 6 September 1944 from which point information emerging from Switzerland was degraded.

In Switzerland members of the ring, Paul Boettcher, Rachel Duebendorfer [codename Sissy], Tamara Vigier (née Caspari) [codename Mara], Roessler, and Christian Schneider [codename Taylor] were also arrested by the Swiss for espionage.

After her release Sissy was returned to the Soviet Union and executed.

As for Lucy being imprisoned the time frame seems to match Erwin Respondek's arrest. he was an informant for the OSS. Is it possible that Respondek was also Lucy?

[Linkagain]

One thing that puzzels me...the Spy Ring had a Ultra coding machine..How come Schellberg never picked up on this fact?