The Chief Culprit: Stalin's Grand Design to Start WW II

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Re: The Chief Culprit: Stalin's Grand Design to Start World War

#16

Post by bf109 emil » 28 Aug 2009, 12:51

The Chief Culprit: Stalin's Grand Design to Start World War
I think what we have are a lot of excuses and theories as to justify Germany's invasion into Russia, no way as a cause of Stalin beginning WW2...but if we are along the lines, did Stalin ever wish to attack or mention this about Germany in or before Aug. 1939 and can one source this...as their is documented and sourced material showing Hitler did indeed plan this before the start of WW2 in Aug of 1939, the 11th to be specific and stated factually that his intention where first to retake Danzig and the cooridor, and afterwords attack the Soviet Union as stated in Berschgarten to the League of Nations representative of the free city of Danzig. Because of the insistence of Anglo/French backing of Danzig he was reluctantly to sign a pact with Moscow in a now new effort to destroy threats from the west before turning back to his intentional and listed desire of defeating the Soviet Union!!!These where all stated by Hitler some 2 weeks before the Molotov/Ribbentrop Pact was signed in order to destroy the west and France and eliminate a possible second front before turning to the Soviet Union...

I would like to see Stalins grand design to "START WORLD WAR" as opposed to why or a possibility the need for Germany to attack and before Hitlers decision likewise on the Soviet Union before sept. 1939 and of Germany knowing of this as opposed to wishful thinking of many nations at the time might have been thought or did so and made public...

Hitlers known and made vocal his intention to combat the Soviet Union and stating such on Aug. 11 1939

"Everything I undertake is directed against Russia. If the West is too stupid and too blind to comprehend this, I will be forced to reach an understanding with the Russians, turn and strike the West, and then after their defeat turn back against the Soviet Union with my collected strength. I need the Ukraine and with that no one can starve us out as they did in the last war." source http://www.worldfuturefund.org/wffmaste ... khardt.htm

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Re: The Chief Culprit: Stalin's Grand Design to Start World War

#17

Post by Cheshire Cat » 28 Aug 2009, 13:06

Special Archive of the USSR, fund 7, index 1, document 1223.
Published in the December 1994, issue of Noviy Mir.
Excerpts from Stalin’s speech at the conclusion of a pact regarding invasion from August 19, 1939: “If we accept Germany’s proposal about the conclusion of a pact regarding invasion, she will of course attack Poland, and France and England’s involvement in this war will be inevitable. Western Europe will subjected to serious disorders and disturbances. Under these conditions, we will have many chances to stay on the sidelines of the conflict, and we will be able to count our advantageous entrance into the war. . . It is in the interest of the USSR – the motherland of workers – that he war unfolds between the Reich and the capitalist Anglo-French block. It is necessary to do everything within our powers to make this war last as long as possible, in order to exhaust the two sides. It is precisely for this reason that we must agree to signing the pact, proposed by Germany, and work on making this war, once declared, last a maximum amount of time”


Stalin's Speeches

Von Thadden cites and quotes at length from several speeches by Stalin, as well as from an order he issued in 1943. According to the author, these show that Stalin -- like his predecessor, Lenin -- always considered war to be the ultimate vehicle by which to promote world Communist revolution and usher in the global dictatorship of the proletariat.

Perhaps the most revealing of these speeches is Stalin's address to a Politburo meeting on August 19, 1939. Delivered to an intimate circle of associates, it shows his astute but utterly cynical evaluation of political forces, and reveals his cunning foresight. (To this writer's knowledge, no American historian has yet taken public notice of this speech.)

Stalin delivered this speech just as Soviet officials were negotiating with British and French representatives about a possible military alliance with Britain and France, and as German and Soviet officials were discussing a possible non-aggression pact between their countries. Four days after this speech, German Foreign Minister von Ribbentrop met with Stalin in the Kremlin to sign the German-Soviet non-aggression pact.

It is important to point out here that Stalin could have prevented war in 1939 by agreeing to support Britain and France in their "guarantee" of support to Poland, or simply by announcing that the Soviet Union would firmly oppose any violation by Germany of Polish territory. He decided instead to give Hitler a "green light" to attack Poland, fully anticipating that Britain and France would then declare war on Germany, making the localized conflict into a full-scale, Europe-wide war.

In this speech, Stalin laid out his shrewd and calculating view of the European situation:

The question of war or peace has entered a critical phase for us. If we conclude a mutual assistance pact with France and Great Britain, Germany will back off from Poland and seek a modus vivendi with the Western powers. War would be avoided, but down the road events could become dangerous for the USSR. If we accept Germany's proposal and conclude a non-aggression pact with her, she will of course invade Poland, and the intervention of France and England in that would be unavoidable. Western Europe would be subjected to serious upheavals and disorder. Under those conditions, we would have a great opportunity to stay out of the conflict, and we could plan the opportune time for us to enter the war.
The experience of the last 20 years has shown that in peacetime the Communist movement is never strong enough to seize power. The dictatorship of such a party will only become possible as the result of a major war.

Our choice is clear. We must accept the German proposal and politely send the Anglo-French mission home. Our immediate advantage will be to take Poland to the gates of Warsaw, as well as Ukrainian Galicia ...

For the realization of these plans it is essential that the war continue for a long as possible, and all forces, with which we are actively involved, should be directed toward this goal ...

Let us consider a second possibility, that is, a victory by Germany ... It is obvious that Germany will be too occupied elsewhere to turn against us. In a conquered France, the French Communist Party will be very strong. The Communist revolution will break out unavoidably, and we will be able to fully exploit this situation to come to the aid of France and make it our ally. In addition, all the nations that fall under the "protection" of a victorious Germany will also become our allies. This presents for us a broad field of action in which to develop the world revolution.

Comrades! It is in the interest of the USSR -- the workers' homeland -- that war breaks out between the Reich and the capitalist Anglo-French block. Everything should be done so that this drags out as long as possible with the goal of weakening both sides. For this reason, it is imperative that we agree to conclude the pact proposed by Germany, and then work that this war, which will one day be declared, is carried out after the greatest possible passage of time...

The Soviet leader's daring calculation to use Germany as an "icebreaker" for war was, von Thadden says, "Stalin's trap."

A version of this speech has been known since 1939, but for decades it has been widely dismissed as a fraud. However, in 1994 Russian historians found an authoritative text of it in a special secret Soviet archive, and quickly published it in a prominent Russian scholarly journal, as well as in an academic publication of Novosibirsk University. (note 7) Shortly after this August 1939 speech, von Thadden points out, Stalin ordered a two-year military mobilization plan, a massive project that culminated in the summer of 1941 with powerful Soviet forces poised to strike westwards against Germany and the rest of Europe.

On May 5, 1941, just seven weeks before the German attack, Stalin delivered another important speech, this one at a ceremonial banquet in the Kremlin to graduates of the Frunze Military Academy. Also attending were the members of Stalin's "inner circle," including Molotov and Beria.

During the war, von Thadden relates, the Germans reconstructed the text of this speech based on recollections of captured Soviet officers who had attended the banquet.

As von Thadden notes, a number of historians have predictably denied its authenticity, rejecting it as a product of German propaganda disinformation. However, several years ago Russian historian Lev Bezymensky found the text of a portion of the speech, which had been edited for anticipated publication, in Kremlin archives. He published this text in a 1992 issue of the scholarly journal Osteuropa.

In this speech, Stalin stressed that the recent peaceful policy of the Soviet state had played out its role. (With this policy, the Soviet Union had greatly extended its borders westward in 1939 and 1940, absorbing some 30 million people.) Now, Stalin bluntly announced, it was time to prepare for war against Germany, a conflict that would begin soon. He cited the tremendous buildup of Soviet military power, both in quantity and quality, during the last few years. The recent German "occupation" of Bulgaria, and the transfer of German troops to Finland, he went on, are "grounds for war against Germany."

Stalin said:

Our war plan is ready ... We can begin the war with Germany within the next two months ... There is a peace treaty with Germany, but this is only a deception, or rather a curtain, behind which we can openly work ...

The peaceful policy secured peace for our country ... Now, however, with our reorganized army, which is technologically well prepared for modern warfare, now that we are strong, we must now go from defense to attack.

In fully defending our country, we are obliged to act offensively. We most move from defense to a military policy of offensive action. We must reorganize our propaganda, agitation, and our press in an offensive spirit. The Red Army is a modern army, and a modern army is an offensive army.

The motto of a peaceful policy of the Soviet government is now out of date, and has been overtaken by events ... A new era in the development of the Soviet state has begun, the era of the expansion of its borders, not, as before, through a peaceful policy, but rather by force of arms. Our country has available all the necessary conditions for this.

The successes of the German army are due to the fact that it has not encountered an equally strong opponent. Some Soviet commanders have falsely overestimated the successes of the German army ...

Therefore, I propose a toast to the new era that has dawned in the development of our socialist fatherland. Long live the active offensive policy of the Soviet state!

In the face of all the new evidence that has become available in recent years, von Thadden contends here, obviously it will be necessary to reexamine the long-standing official interpretation of the war.

To shore up the beleaguered "establishment" view of the Hitler-Stalin clash, a group of concerned scholars met at an international conference in Moscow in 1995. Historians from Europe, Israel, the United States and Canada met with their Russian counterparts to coordinate the "official" line, in both Russia and the West, on the German-Russian clash and its origins. These historians simply ignored most of the abundant and growing body of evidence for the revisionist view of this chapter of history, including the Stalin speeches and other evidence cited by von Thadden, or the recent substantiating findings of Russian historians.

To show that even "establishment" scholars can change their view about this chapter of history, von Thadden cites French historian Stéphane Courtois. (note8)

I work for a reevaluation of Stalin. He was the greatest criminal of this century. But at the same time he was the century's greatest politician: its most competent and most professional. He understood best of all how to utilize all means in the service of his goals. From 1917 onwards, he had a global vision, and sticking to his project, he achieved it ... Of course, one can easily say that Hitler unleashed the war. But the evidence of Stalin's responsibility is shattering. Stalin wanted to eradicate anyone who opposed the Marxist-Leninist social order.

"Because of the resistance of German soldiers," concludes von Thadden, "the Russians and the Anglo-American 'liberators' met each other not in western Europe, but rather on the Elbe in central Germany."


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Re: The Chief Culprit: Stalin's Grand Design to Start World War

#18

Post by bf109 emil » 28 Aug 2009, 13:14

still nothing in here stating Stalin started or had a grand design to begin world war as Hitler had said previously and of his intention directly involving Germany...Nor DID Stalin begin World War 2

quoting historical works or proposed peace backs with Britain and France is hardly a case...if we want to get technical lets ask if Stalin made any writings or speeches before 1925? as written in Mein Kampf? and Hitler desire to annex soviet territory?

The third and final stage would be a war to destroy what Hitler saw as the "Judeo-Bolshevik" regime in the Soviet Union that would give Germany the necessary Lebensraum (literally "living space")
written by Hitler and not a Historian in a biography LONG before ole' Joe could be held responsible as a GRAND DESIGN to start a World War when he had just came to power and was an un-know nobody when this came out! :wink:
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Re: The Chief Culprit: Stalin's Grand Design to Start World War

#19

Post by Cheshire Cat » 28 Aug 2009, 13:24

bf109 emil wrote:still nothing in here stating Stalin started or had a grand design to begin world war as Hitler had said previously and of his intention directly involving Germany...Nor DID Stalin begin World War 2
Blessed are those who believe without evidence :)
bf109 emil wrote: quoting historical works or proposed peace backs with Britain and France is hardly a case...if we want to get technical lets ask if Stalin made any writings or speeches before 1924? as written in Mein Kampf? and Hitler desire to annex soviet territory?
The main value of Mein Kampf is a bit different from what you think.
Lands in the East were not his immediate task, only a perspective for centuries to come.
It didn’t not at all follow from MU that Hitler would advance to the east. There is a mention of lands in the east, but no indication of when Germany needs to conquer those lands.
He even said (in Part 1, Chapter III): “The effort would have to be envisage in terms of centuries; just as in all problems of colonization, steady perseverance is a far more important element than the output of energetic effort at the moment.” Hitler was planning to build a thousand-year Reich. Even in the famous, repeatedly quoted passage, he speaks of centuries:”We want to return to that point, at which our previous development stopped six hundred years ago.” So, “lands in the east” is a very foggy concept, and there is no particular mentioning of Poland (any German movement “towards the sun could only go through the Poland) and Russia. This declaration could have applied to anyone. One phrase in his book transformed Hitler into a source of fear for all his eastern neighbors. This does not at all testify to his mental capabilities.

The number one priority for Hitler was his mortal enemy France.
Mein Kampf, Chapter XIII: “We must take every point of the Versailles Treaty separately, and make it clear to the broadest masses of the population. We must achieve an understanding among 60 million German men, women, and children, and make them feel the shame of this treaty. We must make these 60 million have a deep hatred for this treaty, so that their scorching hatred brings the will of the people together and evokes a cry in unison: GIVE US BACK OUR ARMS!”

That is precisely what Lenin dreamed of: “that someone would emerge, who would raise a struggle against the Versailles Treaty.” This someone did emerge. Adolf Hitler raised a struggle against the Versailles Treaty and against France. He demanded arms. Stalin put a sword in his hands. It is why the proclamation about lands in the east did not scare Stalin. Mein Kampf is against France, as can be read in Part 2, Chapter XIII:
“We must understand the following to the end: Germany’s most evil enemy is and will always be France”. Also: “The task of the day for us is not the struggle for world hegemony.... France systematically tears apart our people and according to her plans strangles our independence.... We simultaneously hear protests and slogans against five or even ten different countries, and meanwhile forget that first of all we need to concentrate all our physical strength and mental powers to deliver a blow to the heart of our vilest enemy.... France will inevitably strive to make Germany into a weak and crushed nation....
At the current moment, our only enemy is France – that nation, which deprives us of our rightful existence.” Further in the book, Hitler continues in the same spirit for many pages and chapters.

I’m just pointing that the main goal Hitler set for Germany’s future in Mein Kampf was not lands in the east, mentioned in only one phrase in the book, but in liberating Germany from the chains of the Versailles Treaty. Hitler made enemies within and outside Germany. Internal enemies were the Jews. Outside enemies were the French, and the Jews.
In order to advance east, it was necessary to stop moving west. On the other hand, in order to advance east, it was necessary to secure Germany’s safety from the mortal enemy, France, and first go west.
It was clear that if Hitler tried to free Germany from France’s economic slavery and from the Versailles Treaty, Britain would immediately interfere, because France imposed the treaty in alliance with Britain. If Germany entered into war with Britain and France, other countries would be pulled into the conflict as well.
He not only openly proclaimed his desire to advance eastward, he also declared that France was his mortal enemy. To this list he also added the Jews. Hitler’s heavy load of enemies broke the camel’s back.

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Re: The Chief Culprit: Stalin's Grand Design to Start World War

#20

Post by bf109 emil » 28 Aug 2009, 13:28

The main value of Mein Kampf is a bit different from what you think.
Lands in the East were not his immediate task, only a perspective for centuries to come.
yup and so what....
I’m just pointing that the main goal Hitler set for Germany’s future in Mein Kampf was not lands in the east,
have you read Mein Kampf? as indeed it does state lands in the east as a desire of Lebensraum and taking so in a future war...
his vocal of a future war was said in 1925...i repeat The third and final stage would be a war to destroy what Hitler saw as the "Judeo-Bolshevik" regime in the Soviet Union that would give Germany the necessary Lebensraum (literally "living space") and made public...when was ole' Joe the cause of this or his thinking at this time

You still have not shown any fact or proof as to Stalin grand design to start world war prior to that of Adolph's :wink:

Numerous documents can be read on Lebensraum and used at Nuremberg as the Nazi's policy and priority...http://library2.lawschool.cornell.edu/d ... ebensraum+

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Re: The Chief Culprit: Stalin's Grand Design to Start World War

#21

Post by Cheshire Cat » 28 Aug 2009, 13:58

bf109 emil wrote:
The main value of Mein Kampf is a bit different from what you think.
Lands in the East were not his immediate task, only a perspective for centuries to come.
yup and so what....
I’m just pointing that the main goal Hitler set for Germany’s future in Mein Kampf was not lands in the east,
have you read Mein Kampf? as indeed it does state lands in the east as a desire of Lebensraum and taking so in a future war...
his vocal of a future war was said in 1925...i repeat The third and final stage would be a war to destroy what Hitler saw as the "Judeo-Bolshevik" regime in the Soviet Union that would give Germany the necessary Lebensraum (literally "living space") and made public...when was ole' Joe the cause of this or his thinking at this time

You still have not shown any fact or proof as to Stalin grand design to start world war prior to that of Adolph's :wink:
What I have shown is more than enough for those who can distinguish real history from rubbish

Desire of Lebensraum was only in one sentence among 600 pages, in perspective thousand years.

And as I see, it is you who never read Mein Campf, and all you capable for is only quoting couple of Hitler's vocal sentences. Hitler was complete psycho and dreamed about conquering Universe, so what ?




In the 1933 the communists and social-democrats together had 49% of vote. Whereas Hitler had 43%. Comrade Telman (Chairman of the German Communist Party) could make only one move and Hitler would be done in all senses. All news papers in those days were saying that Hitler have no any chances to win election. But the comrade Telman gave up his votes in favor of Hitler.
The reason why communists let Hitler to get power is that comrade Stalin wanted it. Telman obeyed without any questions.
The communist Party in Germany was under the absolute control of Kremlin, with an unlimited financial support.
Stalin granted the power to Hitler in order he ignite WWII among capitalists-imperialists countries, and eventually succeeded in it.
Stalin's position was both simple and based upon principles: it was necessary to fight against the Social Democrats and the pacifists, who were distracting the proletariat from revolution and war.
On 7 November 1927, Stalin launched a slogan which said, 'It is impossible to finish with capitalism without first finishing with social democratism in the workers' movement.'
(Pravda, No. 255, 6/7 Nov 1927) The following year Stalin declared that the communists' main task was to fight against social demo
cracy : 'first of all, the struggle with social democratism along all lines, including and following from this the exposure of bourgeois pacifism'. (Stalin, Sochineniya, Vol. 11, p. 202) Stalin's attitude towards those who openly favoured war with, for example, the German Nazis, was just as simple and understandable. The Nazis had to be supported: leave it to the Nazis to eliminate the Social Democrats and the pacifists; let the Nazis start another war and destroy every state in Europe, every political party, every parliament, every army and every trade union. In 1927 Stalin already foresaw that the Nazis would come to power and he considered that this would be a positive event. 'It is precisely this fact which will lead to an exacerbation of the internal situation in the capitalist countries and to the workers coming out in favour of revolution.' (Stalin, Sochineniya, Vol. 10, p. 49)
Stalin supported the Nazis. Zealous Stalinists, such as Herman Remmele, who was a member of the Politburo of the German Communist Party, was quite open in his support of the Nazis, then eager for power. The part which Stalin played in the Nazis' seizure of power in Germany was considerable. As Leon Trotsky said in 1936: 'Without Stalin there would have been no Hitler, there would have been no Gestapo!' (Bulletin of the Opposition (BO), Nos. 52-53, October 1936) Another statement he made in November 1938 reveals Trotsky's shrewdness and his knowledge of the point at issue. 'Stalin finally untied Hitler's hands, as well as those of his enemies, and thereby pushed Europe towards war.' He said this at a time when Chamberlain was rejoicing that there would be no war, Mussolini was regarding himself as a peacemaker and Hitler still had no intention of issuing a directive to attack Poland, even less France. At the moment when Europe was heaving a sigh of relief in the belief that there would be no war, Trotsky already knew both that war would quickly come and who would be to blame for it.

http://books.google.ie/books?id=0CIXLdx ... q=&f=false

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Re: The Chief Culprit: Stalin's Grand Design to Start World War

#22

Post by Art » 28 Aug 2009, 14:00

So called "Stalin's speach" is universally considered as nonauthentic. The document presented is in fact a translation of a captured French document which was used by the Vichy government for the purpose of anticommunist propaganda. In other words it's not an original record. Posting the "speach" as an geniune recod demonstrates a great deal of historiographical innocence to put it softly.

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Re: The Chief Culprit: Stalin's Grand Design to Start World War

#23

Post by Cheshire Cat » 28 Aug 2009, 14:05

The German Communist Party was a major political force. But it had never been gaining from the shipyards in Hamburg, nor from the labor quarters of Berlin, nor from the steel mills in Ruhr. The main sources of strength of German communists were not in Germany but in the Communist Russia.

The archives are open, curious? everyone can verify: the source of power of the German Communist Party was hidden in the Siberian timber and gold. Enduring economic power of the Soviet concentration camps - this is a granite foundation of German communism. And monarchy left huge gold reserves. And the Soviet comrades had been selling national treasures, including church property and works of great masters of the Renaissance. A lot of this helped. There were enough for themselves and for the fraternal parties. And of course collectivization. Bread taken from Russian peasants had been driven for export. Proceeds fed Bolshevik Party and her younger sisters around the world. Soviet comrades turned everything into their property at the Black Sea coasts, all that was there, from royal palaces to the botanical gardens and hunting grounds. Communists all over the world flew there to spent nice time on Crimean resorts.

Stalin had everything to win over. Spongers from all countries joined to Russian feeding, they knew: if you sign up to the Communists, you may not worry for your bright future - Moscow will pay for any expenses, Moscow give, give liberally, and resorts in the Crimea - free. The flow of the labor class fans never faded away.

German Communist leader Ernst Telman spent a lot of time in the Soviet Union, walking in the Soviet military uniform: «On the podium there, Comrade Telman in Red Army’s coat and a helmet with a red star» ( «The Red Army». 9 Dec., 1926).

Isn’t it interesting: The Soviet Union declared the purpose of its existence in the destruction of legitimate governments around the world, including (and especially) - in Germany, and the head of one of the German political parties is strolling in the enemy’s uniform.
Surprisingly, at the same time, when Comrade Telman had been in Moscow, very close, in a secret Tank School under the Kazan, Comrade Stalin was preparing the future German tank commanders. In what uniform they were walking? Not in the German! Of course not. They also were walking in Red Army uniform, just as fellow Telman, only without the red stars (VIZH. 1993. N7. P. 42).

I repeat: William Peak, Otto Grotevoli, Telman and Ulbriht were ones of the boys, absolutely obedient. They lived happily in the country of concentration camps, they led a dissolute life in the Crimean resorts and did not want to know that Ukraine is eating the tree’s bark, the Don Cossacks are eating frogs pottage, while Ukraine bread, its fat and vodka is keeping the world communist movement. Friends of the Comintern were trained to be a ministers of national security in the newly annexed sister republics, and at the same time Stalin was preparing the German tankmen, which were destined to crush Europe ... At first glance - a paradox, for the second - the iron logic.

Benito Mussolini couldn’t reach power without assistance as well. Mussolini had the same problem as Hitler: Not enough votes. The Socialists and Liberals had more votes together. Then Comrade Lenin banned Italian socialists to join a coalition with the Liberals. The result - Mussolini came to power. By the way, these actions were the cause of Italian Socialist Party split. Those who disobeyed the orders of Lenin left the Socialist Party and formed the Communist Party of Italy. Thank you comrade Lenin.

Stalin liked this lesson very much. In January 1924,on the plenary of the Central Committee of RCPs(b) Stalin said: «No to coalition with the Social Democrats, a deadly fight with them».

The Social Democrats have repeatedly suggested the Communists to joint action against Hitler on any terms, but always received a strong and decisive refusal.
Stalin opened the way for Hitler to power using method, which had been used by Lenin to open the way to power for Mussolini.
Comrade Stalin used this obedience in the interests of the world revolution.

The German tankmen, which Stalin was preparing in secret schools, had to be put against Europe. But at first, psycho Hitler should have been put at the head of the Germany. And for that, it was necessary to destroy the Social Democrats and clear the way for Hitler. As a result, German Communist Party had to be sacrificed as a pawn in a big game

Stalin knew: you can spend, any number of millions of dollars, marks, francs and pounds, tons of gold for the maintenance of fraternal communist parties, but in no country, no one communist party has a legal way to take power.
«The experience of the last 20 years has shown that in peacetime the Communist movement is never strong enough to seize power. The dictatorship of such a party will only become possible as the result of a major war ...». Comrade Stalin said it in August 19, 1939 in a secret speech, which remained so until 1994. It was said at the very moment when Stalin opened the floodgates of World War II.

Joachim von Ribbentrop thought that the enemies of Hitler, Communists and Social Democrats, «had a full opportunity to destroy it». Ribbentrop wrote: «If in 1932, our enemies have been united, they could defeat us ...» ( «New Era». 1994. № 37. P. 43).

But Stalin separated all the opponents of Hitler. He told the German communists do not come out against the Nazis, but against the Social Democrats. It is why Hitler became a winner.

Hitler knew that he came to power thank to Stalin, and he was grateful. In May 21, 1940 Chief of General Staff of the Red Army management Lieutenant General Aviation II Proskurov sent report to Defense Marshal of Soviet Union, Tymoshenko, with the stamp «Secret», which contained a statement of German military attache in Moscow Ashenbrennera: «I met Hitler, who told me:" Remember, Stalin did the great things for us, and we should never and under any circumstances forget it "» («New World», 1994. № 12).

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Re: The Chief Culprit: Stalin's Grand Design to Start World War

#24

Post by bf109 emil » 28 Aug 2009, 14:16

What I have shown is more than enough for those who can distinguish real history from rubbish
yes and still waiting for some real history as rubbish might be hiding the facts
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Re: The Chief Culprit: Stalin's Grand Design to Start World War

#25

Post by Cheshire Cat » 28 Aug 2009, 14:21

bf109 emil wrote:
What I have shown is more than enough for those who can distinguish real history from rubbish
yes and still waiting for some real history as rubbish might be hiding the facts

Blessed are all those who wait :)

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Re: The Chief Culprit: Stalin's Grand Design to Start World War

#26

Post by bf109 emil » 28 Aug 2009, 14:22

The German Communist Party was a major political force. But it had never been gaining from the shipyards in Hamburg, nor from the labor quarters of Berlin, nor from the steel mills in Ruhr. The main sources of strength of German communists were not in Germany but in the Communist Russia.
and before Russia became communist, whom did German communist draw there source or strength from?

the communist party was a form of the Social Democratic Party...the largest political party in Germany prior to WW1

if anything the Russian communist party copied that of Germany's This article covers the history of the Social Democratic Party of Germany (German: Sozialdemokratische Partei Deutschlands, SPD). Having its beginnings in the 1860s, the party became the biggest party of the world around 1900.
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Re: The Chief Culprit: Stalin's Grand Design to Start World War

#27

Post by Art » 28 Aug 2009, 14:28

One post of Ceshire Cat containing non-relevant personal remarks was removed.

\\Art

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Re: The Chief Culprit: Stalin's Grand Design to Start World War

#28

Post by Cheshire Cat » 28 Aug 2009, 15:00

Cheshire Cat wrote:
bf109 emil wrote:
What I have shown is more than enough for those who can distinguish real history from rubbish
yes and still waiting for some real history as rubbish might be hiding the facts

Blessed are all those who wait :)

All your questions could find answers here:

Central Archive of the Russian Ministry of Defense, in holding #16, register #2951, case # 241, pages 1 through 16. Top secret: Special Folder

At present the Kremlin archives contain 215,000 “Special Folders”. Nobody has access to them. In addition there are hundreds of thousands of documents labeled “Secret,” “Top Secret,” and “Top Secret: Of Special Importance.”




In May 1941, Stalin for the second time spoke before graduates of military academies.

From unpublished memoirs of Major General of the Air Force M. V. Vodopianov, who was the very first Hero of the Soviet Union. According to Vodopianov’s memoirs, the listeners correctly understood Stalin’s hints, and the room was filled with applause and cheer. During the banquet that fallowed his speech, Stalin twice made a toast: the first was to the commanders and the professors form military academies, the second to the health of artillerymen, tankers, and aviators. A third toast deserved special attention. It was given by Lieutenant General A.K. Sivkov, who toasted Stalin’s peaceful foreign policy. Stalin intervened:

“Allow me to make a correction. A peaceful foreign policy secured peace in out country. A peaceful foreign policy is a good thing. For a while, we drew a line of defense until we re-armed our army and supplied it with modern means of combat. Now, when our army has been rebuilt, our technology modernized, now that we are strong enough for combat, now we must shift from defense to offense. In conducting the defense of our country, we are compelled to act in an aggressive manner. From defense we have to shift to a military policy of offence. It is indispensable that we reform our training, our propaganda, our press to a mindset of offense. The Red Army is a modern Amy, and the modern is an army of offence.”

(Russian Center for Storing and Studying Documents of Recent History, Fund 558, Index 1, Document 3808, Sheet 12.)

On May 5, 1941, Stalin made it perfectly clear to his generals that there would be a war with Germany and that Soviet Union would be the aggressor. It is interesting to note that a few days after the celebration in the Kremlin, Lieutenant General Sivkov, who made a toast to Stalin’s peaceful foreign policy, was discharged.

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bf109 emil
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Re: The Chief Culprit: Stalin's Grand Design to Start World War

#29

Post by bf109 emil » 28 Aug 2009, 15:47

On May 5, 1941, Stalin made it perfectly clear to his generals that there would be a war with Germany and that Soviet Union would be the aggressor. It is interesting to note that a few days after the celebration in the Kremlin, Lieutenant General Sivkov, who made a toast to Stalin’s peaceful foreign policy, was discharged.
yes but wasn't a world war already began by this time in may 1941, likewise as Hitler was telling his generals Adolph had already signed directive 21 in late 1940...

as the thread title says Stalin to be the Chief Culprit, i still don't see this as world war by historians alike claim Sept 1 1939 as known start date for historical records even though aggression in the far east commenced some 2 years prior...to say this would remove the burden and blame from Germany and Hitler which might be a hard sell to the thousands of books and hundreds of military authorities to believe...

their where a lot of reasons of Hitler running for power and taking Anton Drexlers party he formed into the and changed NSDAP along with visions of Aryan writing like Houston Stewart Chamberlain...whom was almost coined a prophet in Nazi heirachy for his writing and thinking...but without the loss of WW1 and the signing of the treaty of Versailles, or the changing of the political system of Germany into the Weimar Republic contributed more so to the rise, belief and thinking of Hitler then did the Russian communist party

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Re: The Chief Culprit: Stalin's Grand Design to Start World War

#30

Post by Cheshire Cat » 28 Aug 2009, 16:00

bf109 emil wrote: as the thread title says Stalin to be the Chief Culprit, i still don't see this as world war by historians alike claim Sept 1 1939 as known start date for historical records even though aggression in the far east commenced some 2 years prior...to say this would remove the burden and blame from Germany and Hitler which might be a hard sell to the thousands of books and hundreds of military authorities to believe...
And we should never forget also that:

The OSCE Parliamentary Assembly on July 3, 2009 passed a resolution comparing Stalinism and Nazism. The resolution calls for August 23 to be made a Day of Memory of Victims of Stalinism and Nazism.
The parliament of the pan-European security body passed a resolution equating the roles of the USSR and Nazi Germany in starting World War II, and condemning the so-called Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, a non-aggression treaty signed on 23 August 1939 between Germany and what was the Soviet Union at the time.
The resolution would make August 23 a day of remembrance for victims of Stalinism and Nazism. That's the day in 1939 that Germany and the Soviet Union signed a pact carving up Eastern Europe between them. World War II started just over a week later.


“On August 23, 1939, Germany and the Soviet Union signed an agreement in Moscow about the destruction of the Polish state and the division of the Polish territories. Poland had mutual assistance agreements with France and the United Kingdom and, therefore, the attack by the Soviet Union and Germany automatically led to a European-and hence world-war. Indeed, in eight days, on September 1, 1939, World War II broke out. It was a direct and unavoidable result of the agreement reached in Moscow.
The USSR-Germany agreement is traditionally called the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. This moniker misleads and does not truly reflect the essence of what happened. The pact that was signed in Moscow was a plot between Hitler and Stalin to conduct an aggressive war in Europe together. Therefore, that agreement in effect was a Stalin-Hitler pact. Furthermore, in international practice it is much more common to use not the names of the statesmen that concluded the agreement, but the place where the documents were signed: the Munich Agreements, the Warsaw Pact, the Baghdad Pact, and the Geneva Agreement. Therefore, in accordance with common diplomatic practice, the more precise name of the pact would be the 1939 Moscow Agreement of the Start of World War II. Both parties received approximately equivalent shares – part of Poland went to Hitler, the other part went to Stalin. However, just eight days after signing the Moscow pact, Stalin violated it. Hitler started a war of aggression against Poland with hope that his ally Stalin would do the same. But Stalin cheated Hitler.
On September 1 and in the subsequent two weeks the Soviet troops stood next to the Polish borders without conducting warfare and crossing the borders. The explanation of the Soviet government to the German counterpart was: the time has not come yet for action by the Red Army. As a result, the entire fault for the beginning of the war fell upon Germany, upon Hitler and his entourage. They entered world history as the chief and only cause of World War II.
Poland was divided not in the Imperial Chancellery, but in the Kremlin. Hitler was not present, Stalin was. But Hitler is at fault for the starting of the war, while Stalin is not. Stalin entered history as an innocent victim and the liberator of Europe.
The invasion of the German troops into Poland had other consequences too: on September 3, 1939, Great Britain and France declared war on Germany. Already on the third day Germany was involved in a two-front war; that is, it wound up in an unwinnable situation. Since Germany practically lacked strategic raw materials, the two-front war was fatal for Germany.
Lack of raw materials not only prohibited Germany from conducting a two-front war, but also a prolonged single-front war. The only hope was for blitzkrieg – instant defeat of the opponent. France could be defeated in a lightning war, but Great Britain is an island nation. To defeat Britain, long and serious preparation is needed, as well as a powerful navy that is equal to or exceeds the British navy. German air power was insufficient to crush British industry and achieve air superiority. Therefore, on the third day the war already looked long and unpromising for Germany.
In a prolonged war against Britain and her allies, Hitler would inevitably exhaust his resources. In September 1939, the Germany government repeatedly reminded the government of the USSR about their obligation and demanded the Red Army’s invasion of Poland according to the agreement. The Soviet government would refuse – not right away, but with a two- to three-day delay. For example, in response to the German demarche of September 3, the head of the Soviet government and its foreign minister, Vyacheslav Molotov, responded on September 5: “We agree with you that concrete action has to be taken at an appropriate time. However, we consider that such a time has not come yet. It is possible that we are mistaken, but it appears to us that excessive haste could cause us harm and facilitate unification among our enemies.”
The German government kept repeating its demands and kept getting refused. Red Army units started military action in Poland only after two and a half weeks – September 17. Stalin’s troops committed similar, or maybe even worse, atrocities in Poland, but Great Britain and France did not declare war on the Soviet Union. Great Britain, France and their allies were interested in preventing Germany from using Soviet strategic resources. To do so, it was necessary to keep Stalin at their side at any cost and, in case of war between Germany and the Soviet Union, to keep the Red Army from being defeated.
As a result of the pact signed in Moscow in 1939 Stalin achieved a war, one which he desired and for which he had planned and prepared for a long time: The nations of Western Europe were mired in a destructive war, but the Soviet Union remained neutral. Now Stalin could wait for the total exhaustion and self-destruction of Central and Western Europe. Hitler guessed Stalin’s intentions and in 1941 suddenly and almost fatally struck the Soviet Union. In this critical situation, Stalin received free aid from the United States and Great Britain, which in volume and quality did not have a historical precedent. At the same time, the Soviet role in unleashing World War II was quickly and thoroughly forgotten. In the final count, Poland for whose freedom the Western European states had entered World War II, did not gain its freedom, but was given, along with all of Central Europe and part of Germany, into Stalin’s control.
It is customary to consider Britain and France among the victors. However, this is clearly a mistake. The purpose for which Great Britain and France entered World War II was ensuring Poland’s independence. This aim was not achieved as a result of the war; therefore, there is no cause to celebrate victory.
As a final result of the Moscow pact, Hitler committed suicide and Stalin became the unbound Red ruler of a huge anti-Western empire, created with the West’s help. At the same time, Stalin managed to keep his reputation of a naïve, trustful simpleton, and Hitler entered history as a duplicitous villain. It is accepted that Stalin was ‘not ready’ for war, but Hitler was ‘ready’.
But the one who wins the war is the one who prepares for war by dividing his enemies and making them fight each other, not the one who makes loud pronouncements.”

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