The Chief Culprit: Stalin's Grand Design to Start WW II

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Cheshire Cat
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Re: The Chief Culprit: Stalin's Grand Design to Start WW II

#61

Post by Cheshire Cat » 03 Sep 2009, 18:32

Cheshire Cat wrote:Soviet soldiers and officers were preparing for a victorious march on Berlin, but the war against Germany in 1941 didn’t run according to plan. As a result, when Soviet commanders were captured, the Germans found quite interesting maps and curious orders in their bags. Thousands of soldiers had Russian-German and Russian-Romanian phrase books. Many simply did not think of the necessity to get rid of this compromising evidence.

The commander of the 5th Battery of the 14th Howitzer Regiment of the 14th Tank Division of the 7th Mechanized Corps, Yakov Iosifovich Dzhugashvili, son of Stalin, was no exception. He was taken prisoner, but at first he was not recognized. The senior lieutenant was betrayed by his subordinates. Stalin’s son was searched and questioned. A letter was found in his pockets, from a certain junior lieutenant in the reserves named Victor: “I am at the training camps, I would like to be home by fall, but the planned walk to Berlin might hinder this.” The letter is dated June 11, 1941. The contents of this letter were reported to Hitler personally; he mentioned it on May 18,1942. (Piker, Hitler’s Table Talks, 303)
In June 1941, German intelligence officers showed the letter to Yakov Dzhugashvili and asked him to clarify the statement about the “planned walk to Berlin”.
The questioning protocol recorded Stalin’s son’s reaction. He read the letter and quietly muttered: “Damn it!”

During questioning, Stalin’s son was asked why the Soviet artillery, which had the best cannon and howitzers in the world, and in incredible numbers, fired so poorly. Stalin’s son answered: “The maps let the Red Army down, because the war, contrary to expectations, unfolded to the east of the state border.”
Stalin’s son told the truth. In 1941, the Red Army fought without maps. There simply weren’t any. But the artillery couldn’t fire without maps. Direct aiming and firing was just a small fraction of the work done by artillery in war. Most of the time artillery fired beyond the horizon.

“It turned out that in Soviet Russia a map-making industry was created that surpassed everything that had ever been done before in its size, organization, volume, and quality of work,” concluded the Germans about Soviet topographic services (Petermanns geographischen Mitteilungen (Germany, 1943), vols. 9, 10)
How do we reconcile the best map-making industry in the world with the complete absence of maps?
General A.I. Lossev explained: “Storages of topographic maps, located unreasonably close to the border, were either seized by the enemy, or destroyed by the enemy during the first bomb raids. As a result, the troops lost 100 million maps.”

This is a modern-day evaluation, and the numbers are lowered. Lieutenant General M.K. Kudryavtsev, who under Stalin was director of the topographic services of the Red Army, said that during the first days of the war, and only in the Baltic, Western, and Kiev military districts, the Soviet troops destroyed during retreat over two hundred railcars of their own topographic maps.
The smallest cargo railcar in the Soviet Union in 1941 could carry twenty tons. Even if we supposed that the smallest cars were used to store the maps, four thousand tons of maps were destroyed in the three districts. Kudryavtsev said that, on average, every railcar contained 1,033,000 maps. Two hundred cars equaled 200 million maps.
Which of the two generals is right? They both are. One talked about what the Germans troops destroyed, 100 million, and the other added that the Soviets themselves destroyed 200 million maps, so they would not go to the enemy.

If the Soviet army planned to defend Moscow, Kursk, and Stalingrad, it needed maps of those regions. There was no reason to transport these maps to the state border.
At the border, the army needed maps of border regions. And, if there was a plan to advance, the army needed maps of the territories that lay ahead. If the Soviet Union planned to take over large territories, it needed the corresponding number of maps, to supply a multimillion-strong army. The Red Army did not save its maps in the border regions, because they were useless for defending the country. In 1941, the plans for the “liberation” of Europe crumbled, and the value of the maps that were kept in railcars on the border became zero. Millions of Russian-German and Russian-Romanian phrase books were burned along with the maps.
The Soviet population was expecting a war, but it didn’t anticipate a German invasion. Therefore, once the Germans attacked, everyone was shocked. Major General of the KGB O.D. Gotsiridze remembered: “Before July 3, when Stalin made a public appearance, it was completely unclear as to what were to do. Everyone thought that the war would be quick and on foreign soil.”
“The complete demoralization among our troops occurred because…the people had planned to fight on the enemy’s territory, and our military commanders were dreaming of a blitzkrieg no less than the Germans were. But everything turned out not quite so happily…..The sudden need for defense turned into a total retreat on all fronts for the troops and the people” (A.B. Zubov, Continent, no 84 (1995))
What about maps folks? Any reasonable explanation?

200 million of maps, covering territories to the west, south and north (till Berlin, Sofia, and Helsinki and so on) were destroyed in the railcars.
But there were another 100 million kept in divisions. In total 300 million maps were destroyed. Some captured by the Germans. They were 4 color military maps (mostly 1:25000).
Maps in the railcars just were waiting their time, considering high secrecy of the offensive preparations. And would have been given to troops, approximately, within few weeks time. All those maps were absolutely useless in defense. No maps – no defence.
During the war Soviet Union produced 700 million maps.
By the way, maps used by the Nazis were mostly produced during the spring of 1941.

http://www.echo.msk.ru/programs/victory/575359-echo/

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Re: The Chief Culprit: Stalin's Grand Design to Start WW II

#62

Post by Kunikov » 03 Sep 2009, 18:48

Kunikov wrote:
Cheshire Cat wrote: The commander of the 5th Battery of the 14th Howitzer Regiment of the 14th Tank Division of the 7th Mechanized Corps, Yakov Iosifovich Dzhugashvili, son of Stalin, was no exception. He was taken prisoner, but at first he was not recognized. The senior lieutenant was betrayed by his subordinates. Stalin’s son was searched and questioned. A letter was found in his pockets, from a certain junior lieutenant in the reserves named Victor: “I am at the training camps, I would like to be home by fall, but the planned walk to Berlin might hinder this.” The letter is dated June 11, 1941. The contents of this letter were reported to Hitler personally; he mentioned it on May 18,1942. (Piker, Hitler’s Table Talks, 303)
No such book entitled "Hitler's Table Talks" exists. There is a book entitled "Hitler's Table Talk" but the author is not 'Piker.' Within the latter there is nothing of the above on either pg. 303 nor on May 18, 1942, which can be found on pgs. 489 and 490. Somehow I believe the participants in this thread should begin looking into the sources being presented, because as with Suvorov, someone else also likes to make things up.
Perhaps you didn't see this the first time.
"Opinions founded on prejudice are always sustained with the greatest violence." Jewish proverb
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Re: The Chief Culprit: Stalin's Grand Design to Start WW II

#63

Post by Cheshire Cat » 03 Sep 2009, 19:41

And?????

Picker - Piker, talks -talk Is it difficult to apprehend? Oh, then I'm sorry for confusing you.

Hitler's Table Talk is a term or title belonging to certain impromptu conversations and statements made by Adolf Hitler, which were recorded by various individuals.

The most important record of Hitler's remarks, usually at dinner with other Nazi leaders, was made at the instigation of Martin Bormann, who edited them from notes taken by Heinrich Heim, from July 1941 to March 1942. Subsequently Henry Picker took notes from 21 March 1942 until 31 July 1942. After the war, Picker published his version of the conversations. Bormann's edited transcript was published by François Genoud in 1952. Hugh Trevor-Roper published the first English edition in the following year, revising it in later editions.

Some of Hitler's conversations were also recorded by Alfred Rosenberg's official Werner Koeppen, who had been instructed to keep Rosenberg informed of Hitler's thoughts by forwarding records of his conversations. Most of these were deliberately destroyed in 1945 but David Irving located a record of Hitler's remarks from September to November 1941.

Albert Speer confirmed the authenticity of those of Hitler's table talk transcripts made by Henry Picker in his 1976 Spandau: The Secret Diaries, and rejected accusations calling Picker a cunning forger.

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Re: The Chief Culprit: Stalin's Grand Design to Start WW II

#64

Post by Kunikov » 03 Sep 2009, 20:45

Cheshire Cat wrote:And?????

Picker - Piker, talks -talk Is it difficult to apprehend? Oh, then I'm sorry for confusing you.

Hitler's Table Talk is a term or title belonging to certain impromptu conversations and statements made by Adolf Hitler, which were recorded by various individuals.

The most important record of Hitler's remarks, usually at dinner with other Nazi leaders, was made at the instigation of Martin Bormann, who edited them from notes taken by Heinrich Heim, from July 1941 to March 1942. Subsequently Henry Picker took notes from 21 March 1942 until 31 July 1942. After the war, Picker published his version of the conversations. Bormann's edited transcript was published by François Genoud in 1952. Hugh Trevor-Roper published the first English edition in the following year, revising it in later editions.

Some of Hitler's conversations were also recorded by Alfred Rosenberg's official Werner Koeppen, who had been instructed to keep Rosenberg informed of Hitler's thoughts by forwarding records of his conversations. Most of these were deliberately destroyed in 1945 but David Irving located a record of Hitler's remarks from September to November 1941.

Albert Speer confirmed the authenticity of those of Hitler's table talk transcripts made by Henry Picker in his 1976 Spandau: The Secret Diaries, and rejected accusations calling Picker a cunning forger.

Indeed, one more time, shall we?


No such book entitled "Hitler's Table Talks" exists. There is a book entitled "Hitler's Table Talk" but the author is not 'Piker.' Within the latter there is nothing of the above on either pg. 303 nor on May 18, 1942, which can be found on pgs. 489 and 490. Somehow I believe the participants in this thread should begin looking into the sources being presented, because as with Suvorov, someone else also likes to make things up.
"Opinions founded on prejudice are always sustained with the greatest violence." Jewish proverb
"This isn't Paris, you will not get through here with a Marching Parade!" Defenders of Stalingrad

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Oleg Grigoryev
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Re: The Chief Culprit: Stalin's Grand Design to Start WW II

#65

Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 03 Sep 2009, 21:44

Oh for pit sake cat - do yourself a favor http://militera.lib.ru/h/1941/04.html

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Re: The Chief Culprit: Stalin's Grand Design to Start WW II

#66

Post by ljadw » 05 Sep 2009, 21:30

bf109 emil wrote:
In the 1933 the communists and social-democrats together had 49% of vote. Whereas Hitler had 43%. Comrade Telman (Chairman of the German Communist Party) could make only one move and Hitler would be done in all senses. All news papers in those days were saying that Hitler have no any chances to win election. But the comrade Telman gave up his votes in favor of Hitler.
The reason why communists let Hitler to get power is that comrade Stalin wanted it. Telman obeyed without any questions.
can you source this as in the 1932 elections the NSDAP received 33.1 % of votes
the communist part and social democrat combined held 37.3 % of seatshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_ele ... ember_1932

results of the 1933 election the NSDAP held 43.9 %
but the communist and socail democrats combined held just 30.6 % not the 49 you claimhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_ele ... ember_1932

and we all know what happened after don't we with the Reichstag fire and removal of the communist party altogether :wink:
As a result of the pact signed in Moscow in 1939 Stalin achieved a war, one which he desired and for which he had planned and prepared for a long time: The nations of Western Europe were mired in a destructive war, but the Soviet Union remained neutral. Now Stalin could wait for the total exhaustion and self-destruction of Central and Western Europe.
and who approached whom to sign a pact...wasn't Stalin but Hitler and did so to prevent a non-agression by Stalin while he and he alone decided to make war....no way this was by Stalins doing no matter how much he liked or danced after...as Hitler made his intentions know like i posted his desire lay in a war with the Soviet Union and if Britain and France still backed Poland he would make a peace with Stalin before hand, win the west and turn on him...like Hitler said and like History notes happened
again on aug.11 1939 and without Stalin instigating or knowing at this time "Everything I undertake is directed against Russia. If the West is too stupid and too blind to comprehend this, I will be forced to reach an understanding with the Russians, turn and strike the West, and then after their defeat turn back against the Soviet Union with my collected strength. I need the Ukraine and with that no one can starve us out as they did in the last war."http://www.worldfuturefund.org/wffmaste ... khardt.htm
About what Hitler said to Burckhardt :John Lukacs in 'June 1941 ' is very sceptical about this story :on P 22 and 23 :There are questions about 1°the purpose 2)the authenticity of Hitler's phrases.Hitler knew Burckhardt's reputation in Paris and London.If these were his actual words,they were,rather obviously,meant to be directed to Paris and London via Burckhardt.More serious are the evidences shown by the Swiss historian and biographer Paul Stauffer about Burckhardt's many misquotations (Zechs Furchtbahre Jahre (Zurich 1998 ) and Zwischen Hofmannstahl und Hitler ,Carl J.Burckhardt (Zurich 1991 ) .

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Re: The Chief Culprit: Stalin's Grand Design to Start WW II

#67

Post by bf109 emil » 05 Sep 2009, 21:54

More serious are the evidences shown by the Swiss historian and biographer Paul Stauffer about Burckhardt's many misquotations
can you be specific as to what he misquoted or indeed about his meeting with Hitler in particular as opposed to a general feeling of Paul Stauffer's thinking along this line and source what Burckhardt misquoted in particular and what the actual quote was or in essence real to legitimize Stauffer's theory from fiction to being fact or proof of Burckhardt being wrong?
Hitler knew Burckhardt's reputation in Paris and London.
and what was his reputation in London or Paris that Hitler knew of as Burckhardt was the representative to The League of Nations in Gdansk and did not answer to London or Paris :wink:

He represented the Free City of Gdansk...and went their not at London's or Paris request but to determine Gdansk and it's safety, where Hitler tried to warn or tell him of his intentions and what he sought...

Had Burckhardt indeed told London and Paris this...would London and Paris have retained their pledge to Poland? If anything Burckhardt kept this secret knowing if he maybe told this and London or paris heeded the warning Poland might have been left alone to stand and their only playing card or bluff to refrain from war was not to have London and Paris indeed know what Hitler wanted or desired and they would be at war and kept this from them as it was Polands last and only hope to draw Britain and Paris as a threat to Germany without those 2 knowing full well Polands reluctance would indeed cause a war :wink: ...

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Re: The Chief Culprit: Stalin's Grand Design to Start WW II

#68

Post by ljadw » 05 Sep 2009, 22:47

bf109 emil wrote:
More serious are the evidences shown by the Swiss historian and biographer Paul Stauffer about Burckhardt's many misquotations
can you be specific as to what he misquoted or indeed about his meeting with Hitler in particular as opposed to a general feeling of Paul Stauffer's thinking along this line and source what Burckhardt misquoted in particular and what the actual quote was or in essence real to legitimize Stauffer's theory from fiction to being fact or proof of Burckhardt being wrong?
Hitler knew Burckhardt's reputation in Paris and London.
and what was his reputation in London or Paris that Hitler knew of as Burckhardt was the representative to The League of Nations in Gdansk and did not answer to London or Paris :wink:

He represented the Free City of Gdansk...and went their not at London's or Paris request but to determine Gdansk and it's safety, where Hitler tried to warn or tell him of his intentions and what he sought...

Had Burckhardt indeed told London and Paris this...would London and Paris have retained their pledge to Poland? If anything Burckhardt kept this secret knowing if he maybe told this and London or paris heeded the warning Poland might have been left alone to stand and their only playing card or bluff to refrain from war was not to have London and Paris indeed know what Hitler wanted or desired and they would be at war and kept this from them as it was Polands last and only hope to draw Britain and Paris as a threat to Germany without those 2 knowing full well Polands reluctance would indeed cause a war :wink: ...
Sadly enough,I have no further information .Lukacs gives nothing more . But generally spoken :is it true ? We have only Burckhardt's side of the story ,not that he would invented the whole story ,but was Hitler so open ? From memory,I think that the story became only public when Burckhardt published a book (maybe to increase the sale :wink: ,or to present himself important ) .The whole thing remembers me Herman Rauschning,nazi chief at Dantzig,who left in a quarrel with Hitler and wrote later a book with as title(from memory :wink: )'What Hitler said to me ' :in fact nothing important . Cheers

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Re: The Chief Culprit: Stalin's Grand Design to Start WW II

#69

Post by bf109 emil » 08 Sep 2009, 14:16

I think that the story became only public when Burckhardt published a book (maybe to increase the sale :wink: ,or to present himself important )
Burckhardt meeting with Hitler at Berchsgarten on August 11 1939 did indeed take place and was reported cannot be disputed :wink: as his meeting was reported afterwords and details given in Switzerland on the 13th August 1939

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Re: The Chief Culprit: Stalin's Grand Design to Start WW II

#70

Post by ljadw » 08 Sep 2009, 14:48

bf109 emil wrote:
I think that the story became only public when Burckhardt published a book (maybe to increase the sale :wink: ,or to present himself important )
Burckhardt meeting with Hitler at Berchsgarten on August 11 1939 did indeed take place and was reported cannot be disputed :wink: as his meeting was reported afterwords and details given in Switzerland on the 13th August 1939
I never was denying that the meeting happened,but I can't believe that Hitler should say to Burckhardt :All what I am doing is directed against Russia ,knowing that B would tell it to the French and the British and that the Russian would know it ,and than making two weeks later a treaty with Russia that would know Hitler would attack them at the first opportunity,because the treaty was forced upon Hitler .About the reputation of Burckhardt :from The Appeasers P262 :Burckhardt was known to be extremely anti-Polish . Is this true ? I don't know .

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Re: The Chief Culprit: Stalin's Grand Design to Start WW II

#71

Post by ljadw » 08 Sep 2009, 15:06

A last point (forgot it in my reply ):about what Hitler said :we have two source:1)the minutes by Makins(august 14 ) about what B said Hitler told him 2)The book of B 'Meine Danziger Mission 1937 -1939 ,written in 1980 ,40 years later,when he was 89 ,are these two in agreement or are they contradicting ? I don't know,having seen neither of them . All we have are the declarations of Burckhardt ,are they sufficient ? I doubt . Cheers

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Re: The Chief Culprit: Stalin's Grand Design to Start WW II

#72

Post by bf109 emil » 08 Sep 2009, 15:13

I don't know,having seen neither of them . All we have are the declarations of Burckhardt ,are they sufficient ? I doubt
so your doubting is a personal opinion? based on 2 biographies which may or may not be accurate which you haven't read? interesting...So we have to conclude your doubting Burckhardt is purely a personal opinion and a speculative conclusion...I can live with that

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Re: The Chief Culprit: Stalin's Grand Design to Start WW II

#73

Post by ljadw » 08 Sep 2009, 17:09

bf109 emil wrote:
I don't know,having seen neither of them . All we have are the declarations of Burckhardt ,are they sufficient ? I doubt
so your doubting is a personal opinion? based on 2 biographies which may or may not be accurate which you haven't read? interesting...So we have to conclude your doubting Burckhardt is purely a personal opinion and a speculative conclusion...I can live with that
bf 109 emil: sorry if I was not clear enough:what Hitler "said " in the meeting with Burckhardt has been presented by a lot of people as most important . Hillgruber(German historian )called this:prophetic,farsighted . I am sceptical:are the declarations of Hitler authentic ? We don't know,having only Burckhardt's version . And why should Hitler have said what he "said" ?It was conterproductive :in essence ,he said :I will make a treaty with Stalin,destroy Poland,defeat the West and than attack Stalin ,while he had yet no treaty with Stalin,and when Stalin knew this,he should be a fool to make an alliance with Hitler .An other point:Hitler did not know that the West would declare war if he attacked Poland,he did not know that he would eliminate France,he did not know that Britain would continue the fighting . I am very sceptical about what Hitler said and about the importance of the meeting . Cheers .

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Re: The Chief Culprit: Stalin's Grand Design to Start WW II

#74

Post by Crazy_Ivan » 11 Sep 2009, 20:33

I have been thinking and reading up about this and find Cheshire cats argument completely with-out merit.

1. As per Mein Kampf:

"We national socialists take up where we broke off six hundred years ago. We stop the endless German movement to the south and west of Europe and turn our gaze towards the lands in the east...When we speak of new territory in Europe today we must think principally of Russia and her vassal states. Destiny itself seems to wish to point out the way to us here...This colossal empire in the East is ripe for dissolution and the end of the Jewish domination in Russia will also be the end of Russia as a state."


Obviously and very clearly his intentions on Russia are very clear 15 years prior to his so called pre-emptive strike.

2. As per The Rise and fall of the third reich page 796:

Two months after signing the pact with Russia Halders diary has Hitler stating that Polish territory was to be regarded "as an assembly area for future German operations."

furthermore

Jodl had stated that the decision was taken "as far back as the western campaign."
Keitel had stated that "He(Hitler) wanted to launch the attack against the U.S.S.R. during the fall of 1940." But this was too much, even for Keitel and he talked him out of it.

3. July 21st 1940 at a meeting with Brauchitsch (as per Halders notes) Hitler had been stung by Stalins grabs in the East, that he thought Stalin had been "coquetting with England" but that that there was absolutely no sign that Russia was preparing to enter the war against Germany.

4. July 29th 1940 Colonel Walter Warlimont(Jodl's deputy at OKW) records stated that Jodl announced at a meeting of operations staff officers that "Hitler intended to attack the U.S.S.R. in the Spring of 1941."

Soooooo a week before it is announced to Operations Staff officers that Hitler has set a timetable for an invasion of Russia, Hitler tells his Commander in Chief of the Wehrmacht that there is no sign of impending Russian aggression.

All of this goes back to Oleg Grigoryevs request for proof of Stalin's machinations to start WW II.

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Re: The Chief Culprit: Stalin's Grand Design to Start WW II

#75

Post by Crazy_Ivan » 11 Sep 2009, 20:34

I have been thinking and reading up about this and find Cheshire cats argument completely with-out merit.

1. As per Mein Kampf:

"We national socialists take up where we broke off six hundred years ago. We stop the endless German movement to the south and west of Europe and turn our gaze towards the lands in the east...When we speak of new territory in Europe today we must think principally of Russia and her vassal states. Destiny itself seems to wish to point out the way to us here...This colossal empire in the East is ripe for dissolution and the end of the Jewish domination in Russia will also be the end of Russia as a state."


Obviously and very clearly his intentions on Russia are very clear 15 years prior to his so called pre-emptive strike.

2. As per The Rise and fall of the third reich page 796:

Two months after signing the pact with Russia Halders diary has Hitler stating that Polish territory was to be regarded "as an assembly area for future German operations."

furthermore

Jodl had stated that the decision was taken "as far back as the western campaign."
Keitel had stated that "He(Hitler) wanted to launch the attack against the U.S.S.R. during the fall of 1940." But this was too much, even for Keitel and he talked him out of it.

3. July 21st 1940 at a meeting with Brauchitsch (as per Halders notes) Hitler had been stung by Stalins grabs in the East, that he thought Stalin had been "coquetting with England" but that that there was absolutely no sign that Russia was preparing to enter the war against Germany.

4. July 29th 1940 Colonel Walter Warlimont(Jodl's deputy at OKW) records stated that Jodl announced at a meeting of operations staff officers that "Hitler intended to attack the U.S.S.R. in the Spring of 1941."

Soooooo a week before it is announced to Operations Staff officers that Hitler has set a timetable for an invasion of Russia, Hitler tells his Commander in Chief of the Wehrmacht that there is no sign of impending Russian aggression.

All of this goes back to Oleg Grigoryevs request for proof of Stalin's machinations to start WW II.

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