Mechanised Brigade shtat 10/420-432 1943

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Der Alte Fritz
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Mechanised Brigade shtat 10/420-432 1943

Post by Der Alte Fritz » 09 Feb 2013 14:42

This one is quite complex as there were two separate types of Tank Regt in use at the time.
Some units used shtat 010/292 from Sept 1942 until March 1944 when they switched to shtat 010/507.
Others used shtat 010/292 until Jan 1943 when they switched to shtat 010/414.
010/414 was altered in Feb 1944 when it dropped the Light Tank Company and the ATR Platoon but has various totals of personnel ranging from 597 down to 401.

So this is where I have got to so far:
Mech Bde 10-420.jpg
Mech Bn.jpg
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Re: Mechanised Brigade shtat 10/420-432 1943

Post by Der Alte Fritz » 09 Feb 2013 14:43

Tank 10-414.jpg
tank 10-507.jpg
The green (or blue) items are ones where the various sources disagree or may be quoting different times.
:roll:
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Re: Mechanised Brigade shtat 10/420-432 1943

Post by Gary Kennedy » 09 Feb 2013 19:35

There are multiple obstacles in trying to work out the Mech Rifle Bn, which represents my own particular area of interest. The absolute dearth of info in the Red Army Handbook in particular and the wider world in general on the unit's organisation makes it practically impossible to get a clear view. So until something concrete (I'd settle for balsa actually) comes along, here's some pure supposition to be going on with...

Bn HQ; 20 all ranks
SMG Pl; 32
Pio Pl; 25
Atk Rifle Coy; 53
Atk Gun Coy; 44
Mrtr Coy; 42
Bn Tns; 50
Three Coys, each; 125

Provisional total; 641

Allowing for an MG Coy of 66 all ranks would bring the total to 707.

Bn HQ, Bn Tns, Atk Rifle and Gun Coys, and Mrtr Coy strengths are taken from those given for the Motorised Rifle Bn of the Tank Corps as stated in the Red Army Hbk. I'm aware this was a separate unit, but the supporting arms allocation was very similar for both. An actual strength is given for the SMG Pl, the Pio Pl is a guess and the Rifle Coys are based on the following interpretation;

Coy HQ; 7 all ranks
Med Det; 5
MG Pl; 11
Three Pls, each; 34 (Pl Cmdr, driver, four Squads, each 8 men)

The Pl strength is lifted from the earlier, and I know unconnected, Tk Bde org of Aug 1941.

I can actually get to 48 officers for the Bn on this arrangement, as per table 2.18. I have no idea where the 66 offrs noted in the earlier table 2.17 would fit in. I know the Red Army had a much higher percentage of junior offrs than anyone else, but one in eleven is taking the mick.

I'll start the demolition job myself; if the Pl strength is wrong, then all other calculations are thrown off; were Rifle Pls carried tactically (that is one truck per Squad), or just embussed in a Bn or Coy level transport pool; when the Bn drops from 707 to 649 as noted in the Hbk, who on earth got cut? And another half dozen similar queries come to mind...

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Re: Mechanised Brigade shtat 10/420-432 1943

Post by Der Alte Fritz » 12 Feb 2013 09:04

So there is some further infomation taken from Tankfront.ru:

State Defense Committee
Decree № GFCS-2791ss of 28 January 1943
on the formation of ten tank armies

Mechanized Corps 010/418 15740 personnel
Rifle brigade 010/420 3215
Motorised SMG battalions 010/273

Of note the Tank Corps is using a Rifle Brigade (010/420) with 3215 personnel while the Mech Corps is using a Mech Bde (010/420) with 3739 personnel. So one assumes the Mech is the same thing as the Rifle plus addition units.

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Re: Mechanised Brigade shtat 10/420-432 1943

Post by Art » 12 Feb 2013 13:48

Of note the Tank Corps is using a Rifle Brigade (010/420) with 3215 personnel while the Mech Corps is using a Mech Bde (010/420) with 3739 personnel. So one assumes the Mech is the same thing as the Rifle plus addition units.
Yep, the mechanized brigade had one tank regiment (39, later 35 tanks) added. Other units were the same.

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Re: Mechanised Brigade shtat 10/420-432 1943

Post by John Hilly » 12 Feb 2013 16:36

If I'm still with you, the MC's 3739 minus TC's 3215 makes the extra Tank Regiment's strenght as 524 men.
I can't find this figure (524) from the earlier charts!?
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Re: Mechanised Brigade shtat 10/420-432 1943

Post by Der Alte Fritz » 12 Feb 2013 17:24

John Hilly wrote:If I'm still with you, the MC's 3739 minus TC's 3215 makes the extra Tank Regiment's strenght as 524 men.
I can't find this figure (524) from the earlier charts!?
The Tank Regt is based upon Armored Brigade shtat 010/270 1116 personnel so a Regt is based around shtat 010/292 for 339-357 personnel and 39 tanks. (The Jan 1943 shtat 010/414 Tank Regiment has 470 personnel and so would be more than the Armoured Bde total of 1116 mentioned in the order.)

There is also the Medium Machine Gun Company to lose plus changes in the Supply Company to account for fewer people.
So Tank Regt -339
MG Company dropped from Mech Bde -58
totals 397 personnel leaving 127 personnel unaccounted for in other units.

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Re: Mechanised Brigade shtat 10/420-432 1943

Post by Der Alte Fritz » 12 Feb 2013 18:53

First point to note of course is that the Red Army Handbook totals do not match the NKO Order on Tankfront.ru

Red Army Handbook: Mech Bde total using Motor Rifle Bn total of 649 (apologies spreadsheet has screwed this up on the forum image I posted) and 010/270 Tank Regt total of 357 gives a Bde total of 3445 personnel.

NKO Order states 010/420 is 3739.

So we are short 294 men from the Bde on the spreadsheet above. RAH version may be later on with additions, deletions?

Secondly the NKO states that Mech Bdes are built from Rifle Divisions/Brigades so a better starting point would be the infantry shtat 04/550 with some changes. So starting with the Infantry diagram on the 04/550 thread I have a Bn strength of 619 and then by altering the equipment (deleting the 50mm mortars adding 1 machine gun per company and deleting a section of 82mm mortars, doubling the ATR and 45mm guns at battalion level, I get to 652 men and Mech Bde spreadsheet we are looking for 649.

This allows for 4 sections (9) in 3 platoons (40) in 3 companies (142)

Transport is held above Battalion level.

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Re: Mechanised Brigade shtat 10/420-432 1943

Post by Der Alte Fritz » 13 Feb 2013 10:00

Had a look at the Red Army Handbook last night and the 010/420 table is Feb 1943 amended to Sept 1943 so this is a later calculation. So I think the difference is the dropping of the PVO AA Regt and its replacement by the AA MG Company.

I have posted requests for the Brigade and Battalion shtat on various Russian military websites so we shall see if we get any reply.

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Re: Mechanised Brigade shtat 10/420-432 1943

Post by Der Alte Fritz » 14 Feb 2013 09:37

Got a reply from http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forums/s ... 1&t=132626

Member Sharposhnikov say:

"Many years ago, I collected a bunch of documents on the mechanized and motor-rifle units that the Germans had captured and compiled. Here is the internal organization of the Mechanized Brigade (10/420) starting in September 1942:

Brigade HQ
.....Staff & Operations (81 men)
.....Staff Company (73 men)
........Chemical Warfare, Signal, Supply Platoons
Rifle Battalion (662 men) (3 total)
.....Bn HQ
........Staff Platoon, Signal Detachment,Supply Company
......Rifle Company (3 total in each battalion)
........12 LMGs, 2 MMGs
.......Machinegun Company - 9 MMGs
.......Mortar Company - 6 82mm mortars
.......Antitank Rifle Company - 18 ATRs
.......Antitank Company - 4 45mm guns
.......Submachine Gun Company (90 SMGs)
Tank Regiment (339 men)
.....Headquarters & Services
........Staff Platoon (1 T-34)
........Signal Platoon (2 T-34s)
........Reconnaissance Platoon (3 armored cars)
........Truck Platoon
.....2 Medium Tank Companies
........ each: 3 platoons of 3 tanks, plus 1 HQ tank
.....Light Tank Company
........3 platoons of 5 tanks, plus 1 HQ tank
.....Antitank Rifle Company - 18 ATRS in 3 platoons
Mortar Battalion (198 men)
.....Staff Company
.....Mortar Battery - 6 120mm mortars
.....2 Mortar Companies - each 6 82mm mortars
Artillery Battalion (214 men)
.....Staff Battery
.....3 Cannon Batteries - each 4 76.2mm cannon
Antiaircraft Battalion
.....HQ plus 3 batteries: total 12 37mm light AA guns
Submachine Gun Company (94 men)
.....HQ plus 3 platoons, total 88 SMGs
Reconnaissance Company (141 men)
.....Armored Car Platoon – 7 light armored cars
.....Motorcycle Platoon
........2 Rifle Platoons (trucks OR Lend Lease Armored Carriers - US M3A1 or British Bren)
Services:
.....Maintenance Company (72 men)
.....Medical Platoon (32 men)
.....Truck Company (72 men)

TOTAL:
3600 men
110 Light Machineguns
45 Medium Machineguns
12 37mm AA guns
30 82mm mortars
6 120mm mortars
12 76.2mm cannon
12 45mm cannon
106 14.5mm Antitank Rifles
23 medium tanks
16 light tanks
10 armored cars
10 armored carriers
328 trucks
35 radios

In January 1943 the following changes were made:
Tank Regiment: Changed to following:
.....Headquarters and Services:
........Staff Platoon
........Signal Platoon (2 T-34s)
........Reconnaissance Platoon (3 armd cars)
.....3 Medium Tank Companies
........each: 3 platoons of 3 tanks, plus 1 HQ tank
.....Light Tank Company
........2 platoons of 3 tanks, plus 1 HQ tank
.....Antitank Rifle Company - 18 ATRS in 3 platoons

TOTAL:
32 Medium Tanks
7 Light Tanks
3 Armored Cars

In February 1943 the following were added:
Antiaircraft Machinegun Company (48 men)
.....9 12.7mm AAMG
........(replaces the Antiaircraft Battalion)
Antitank Rifle Company (69 men)
.....HQ plus 3 platoons, each 9 ATRs
Engineer-Mine Company (121 men)
.....HQ plus 3 platoons

Hope all of this helps..."

This both confirms the totals provided by RAH (and may even be the source of them in the first place) and adds some details.

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Re: Mechanised Brigade shtat 10/420-432 1943

Post by Der Alte Fritz » 14 Feb 2013 10:02

With regard to the Truck allocation this NKO Order is of relevance (despite the poor Microsoft translation)

The order of the USSR No. 019 of NCB January 10, 1943
"To change the regular organization in units and formations of tank and mechanized Corps»

January 10, 1943

In order to reduce the use and management of motor transport in units and formations within the tank and mechanized Corps, I order:

1. Exclude from the mechanized infantry brigades and anti-aircraft Division by State no. 010/374.

2. information provided by State no. 010/388 letter "b" company of the FUEL supply to the letters "a".

3. repair-reconstruction battalion transferred to the staff of no. 010/415.

4. Exclude from the mechanized Corps army AIR DEFENCE Regiment.

5. delete the vehicles and personnel from the States parts of the tank and mechanized Corps connections according to the attached list 1.

People's Commissar of defence of the USSR
Stalin

TSAMO. F. 2. Op. 795437, d. and l. 53. Printed copies.
Literature and sources:
1.Main office avtobronetankovoe. People, events, facts in 1943-1944. -M.: GABTU, 2006.

Which means that trucks were now pooled at Mech Corps level rather than being held at Battalion level. One item I do wnat to examine is how much unit transport was available as my understanding is that a good proportion of the infantry walked.

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Re: Mechanised Brigade shtat 10/420-432 1943

Post by Der Alte Fritz » 14 Feb 2013 18:14

So I have taken the Charles Sharp information and added it into the Red Army Handbook spreadsheet.
I have decided to take the formation right back to Sept 1942 so that we have a clear starting point and then add in the various changes made to see if we hit the NKO order totals and RAH table.

There are two anomalies with the Sharp information
1) He states that the SMG unit in the Rifle Battalion is a full company of 90 men where as tankfront.ru says it is a platoon. I have used the latter since it brings the battalion total up too high and may be confusion with the Motor Rifle Battalion (Tank Corps) which had 2 Rifle Companies and an SMG Company.
2) He adds in 18 ATR to the Tank Regt. I cannot find these anywhere else. Have left them in for now.

amendments by Sharp information coloured red.
Mech Bde 010-420 Sept 1942.jpg
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Re: Mechanised Brigade shtat 10/420-432 1943

Post by Der Alte Fritz » 14 Feb 2013 18:22

And here is the Mech Battalion made up of
a) Charles Sharp information (red)
b) Rifle Division information (blue) with scaling up ie 2 x45mm AT guns (17) becomes 4 x 45mm AT guns (34)
Mech Rifle Bn.jpg
I have got very close to the overall totals for the Battalion using standard Rifle Division structure and numbers. :milwink:
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Re: Mechanised Brigade shtat 10/420-432 1943

Post by Gary Kennedy » 14 Feb 2013 21:32

This I think tallies with some of the info from ACG -

http://usacac.army.mil/CAC2/CGSC/CARL/n ... 44RXAL.PDF

It's listed as being taken from the Nov 1945 US Hdbk on Soviet Forces and the 'Red Army Order of Battle' published in 1983, plus a sprinkling of WW2 German interpretation. Nafziger documents usually include typos (hence 4 Bns for the Mech Bde, rather than 3), but the unit strengths do at least tally with the over total.

The Red Army Hdbk shows a steady decline in transport for the Bde in its Apr 42, Sep 42 and Feb 43 iterations, while the above linked version still credits them with around 300 in 1944.

I'm not convinced the Mech Bns were based on the Inf Bn so closely. Shtat 10/370-380 is dated in the Hdbk as issued April 1942, while the Inf Regts didn't adopt the nine-man Squad until the July 1942 tables, three months later. Also, while it would be wrong to simply transfer the experience of other armies onto the Soviet one, the unit and subunit organisation for mot/mech troops is frequently much different to standard inf. If the Soviets had intended to simply motorise existing units then the addition of a pool of transport could have done the job (as per the use of RASC TCVs to 'lorry' the Inf Bde of an Armd Div, which was almost identical to a standard Inf Bde for example). The fact that the Soviets changed every level of support weapon (50-mms deleted, 82-mms reduced, HMGs deleted initially, 45-mm atk guns added, atk rifle issue altered), and added new subunits (SMG and Pio Pls) suggests strongly to me that the Mech Inf Bns were a different animal altogether. Likewise every mot/mech Bn org evolution I've ever looked at was intimately linked with their transport assets.

It is amazing that there's seemingly no record of the strength of the subunits of the Bn, given how many Bdes were mobilised. Does Sharp not give any clues either?

Gary

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Re: Mechanised Brigade shtat 10/420-432 1943

Post by Der Alte Fritz » 14 Feb 2013 22:29

Well I have asked Mr Sharp this question and am awaiting his reply. But do bear in mind that a lot of his information was based on German intelligence reports and hence not 100% accurate.

My evidence for the structure I gave is thin but here it is for what it is worth.
1) RAH P75 the original Tank Corps MR Bde (010/370) is described as having "three rifle companies, consisted of an HQ section, three rifle platoons(each of four squads) and a machine gun platoon (of two squads)........no mention of squad numbers but the current Rifle squad was 14 or 10?
2) RAH Table 2.8 and P81 the organisation of MR Bn in Tank Brigades as totally different in structure based on a 3 company 3 platoon 3 section structure. (010/273)
3) RAH P83 The Mechanised Brigade is stated as being "as similar to those in the motorised infantry brigade but added a machine gun company.....
4) These units were always chronically short of transport. (Bessanov "Tank Rider" is always walking or riding on a tank.) In document setting up the Tank Armies, in Jan 1943 NKO Order No2791 General Krulev is asked to provide 53,600 trucks. The RKKA on 1st Jan had 404,000 trucks of which 279,600 are with the Fronts, so this is taking about 15% of the entire Red Army fleet or 20% of the transport at the Fronts. So I think that there was very little connection between transport and the unit establishment and in reality Mechanised Corps were anything up to 40% short of their establishment.They kept dropping the establishment number of trucks because they could not deliver the number of trucks needed by these units and their losses.

So the picture as I understand it is of three different types of Motor Rifle Battalion depending on whether it is in a Tank Bde, Tank Corps or Mech Bde/Corps.
But this is not based on much and the RAH is not very clear and there are no Russian sources that I can find.

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