Mechanised Brigade shtat 10/420-432 1943

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Re: Mechanised Brigade shtat 10/420-432 1943

Post by Art » 30 Aug 2017 20:08

Der Alte Fritz wrote: from Tankfront.ru:
By the directive of the General Staff of the Red Army No. Орг / 3/2305 of 04.03.1944 all the tank regiments of the state №010 / 292 (with the T-70 company) were transferred to the new states [State No. 010/507] by April 1 , according to which they Totaled 21 to 35 T-34s.
That's a little odd. From what I know from February 1944 there were two types of medium tank regiments:
1) separate tank regiment - two companies, 21 T-34
2) tank regiment/mechanized brigade - 3 companies, 35 T-34. Which is 010/465 according to Tankfront, not 010/507.
Tankfront describes an organization with four companies, I'm quite sure that it's a mistake.

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Re: Mechanised Brigade shtat 10/420-432 1943

Post by Der Alte Fritz » 31 Aug 2017 07:12

Yet it does appear in my list of shtat numbers:

010/507 танковый полк(введён 4.03.44)

Tankfront reference: http://www.tankfront.ru/ussr/organisati ... 2_otp.html which quotes Losik as its source.

010/507 shtat page: http://www.tankfront.ru/ussr/organisati ... 7_otp.html

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Re: Mechanised Brigade shtat 10/420-432 1943

Post by Gary Kennedy » 31 Aug 2017 13:04

This was the info I'd been able to obtain re other types of Tank unit -

010/463 (28Feb44); HQ, HQ Pl (includes 1 radio tank and 1 BA-64, also Pioneer Det), Recce Pl (3 BA-64 and 2 M2 armd carriers, presumably LL halftracks, and a motorcycle section), two Tank Coys (each 10 tanks with 1 at Coy HQ and three Pls of 3 each), Repair Pl, Transport Pl, Admin Sec, Medical Det. Total strength 225 all ranks, based on 4-man T-34s.

010/414 (7Jan43); HQ, HQ Coy (includes 2 radio tanks, a Recce Pl with 3 BA-64s and two Rifle Squads, Pio Pl and a Commandant Squad), three Tank Coys (each 10 tanks with 1 at Coy HQ and three Pls of 3 each), one Tank Coy (with 7 T-70 tanks, 1 at Coy HQ and two Pls each of 3), SMG Coy (three Pls of 23 men), Atk R Coy (three Pls each with 6 Atk rifles), Tech Coy, Admin Sec, Med Det. Original total strength of 524 men, then lots of minor changes (Coy command staffs trimmed, Gas NCOs added), big thing the Atk Rifle Coy slashed to a single Pl with 6 rifles. Total strength eventually resolved to 474 all ranks.

010/465 - only an outline of this, HQ, HQ Coy (HQ Squad with 2 tanks, Recce Pl with 3 tanks and seemingly some inf element, Pio Det and Commandant Squad), three Tank Coys (each 10 tanks with 1 at Coy HQ and three Pls of 3 each), Tech Coy and Med Det. Total strength(ish) 368 all ranks.

Can't say I've seen anything for an 010/507, but then again there's plenty I'm still hoping to find! The Red Army Handbook mentions a development of seemingly 010/414, which deleted the light tanks and switched to four Coys of 10 tanks each, plus an SMG Coy, possibly that was 010/507?

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Re: Mechanised Brigade shtat 10/420-432 1943

Post by Jeff Leach » 31 Aug 2017 13:50

May I ask, what sources you are using. I have a whole bunch of material from the Soviet Archives (material internally published by the Soviet General Staff).

ABTV - 2 volumes (one volume on the organzational development of the Soviet Armored Forces)
Guards units - 3 volumes + index volume (1941-1942, 1943, 1944-1945)
Mechanized Corps
Guards Mechanized Corps
Organzational Charts (3 volumes)
Tank Battalions
Tank Brigades
Tank Brigades (20 volumes)

I can't share these freely but I might be convinced to share them with other researchers. I've never had time to more than glance through most of them.

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Re: Mechanised Brigade shtat 10/420-432 1943

Post by Gary Kennedy » 31 Aug 2017 14:00

For myself I was able to pick up a few Tk/Mech Bde shtat a couple of years back, and some structural outlines of Bde organisations from AMVAS (owner of an RKKA website). Also a few things found on the pamyat-naroda.ru archives, though I hadn't seen much on there in the way of Tk/Mech forces (the Nov43 Tk Bde aside).

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Re: Mechanised Brigade shtat 10/420-432 1943

Post by Der Alte Fritz » 31 Aug 2017 15:20

Sources to date:
Строительство и боевое применение советских танковых войск в годы Великой Отечественной войны [Construction and combat use of Soviet tank forces during the Great Patriotic War] O.A.Losik
Red Army Handbook
Tankfront website
схем организации частей и соединений Красной Армии Album 50
Charles Sharps Red series of books (mainly German intelligence sources from NARA)
George Nafzigers tables from Army Military History site

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Re: Mechanised Brigade shtat 10/420-432 1943

Post by Art » 31 Aug 2017 19:46

Gary Kennedy wrote:The Red Army Handbook mentions a development of seemingly 010/414, which deleted the light tanks and switched to four Coys of 10 tanks each, plus an SMG Coy, possibly that was 010/507?
I doubt that any regiments with four medium tank companies ever existed.
010/465 - only an outline of this, HQ, HQ Coy (HQ Squad with 2 tanks, Recce Pl with 3 tanks and seemingly some inf element
From this document (pages 75-79) authorized strength of the mechanized brigade/tank regiment/recce platoon in May 45 was:
3 officers, 22 NCOs, 15 privates, total 40 men
3 tanks, 2 armored carriers, 2 motorcycles
5 machine guns, 2 AT Rifles, 24 SMGs, 9 pistols, 3 radios (including those installed on vehicles, I guess)

For comparison recce company/mechanized brigade from the same doc:
7 officers, 66 NCOs, 61 privates, total 134 men
10 armored carriers, 7 armored cars, 3 motorcycles, 4 automobiles
17 machine guns, 10 AT rifles, 79 SMGs, 14 rifles, 39 pistols, 4 radios
Note a certain rearrangement compared to the original TO&E.

Introduction of the new tank regiment also meant that the balance of the light armor vehicles changed somewhat. The original 010/420 provided for 10 armored carriers in the recce company and 10 armored cars (7 in the recce company and 3 in the tank regiments). Now there were 12 armored carriers (10 in the recce coy and 2 in the tank regiment) and 8 armored cars (7 in recce coy and 1 in tank regiment). Whereas when the TO&E was issued "armored carriers" were apparently supposed to be British Universal carriers, in 1944-45 they were mostly US-built wheeled scout cars. USSR revived some US half-tracks as well, but they were mainly used as command vehicles or artillery tractors.

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Re: Mechanised Brigade shtat 10/420-432 1943

Post by Der Alte Fritz » 01 Sep 2017 11:18

An indication of the complexity of the shtats and their changes over time is given by this diagram showing typical changes for 1, 4 and 9 Mech Corps and 1 Gd Mech Corps as given by Tankfront.ru pages:
Mech Corps.jpg
Interestingly although they are the source for the 010/507 shat replacing 010/292, I cannot find any examples in their unit history pages
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Re: Mechanised Brigade shtat 10/420-432 1943

Post by Art » 01 Sep 2017 19:55

Der Alte Fritz wrote: By the directive of the General Staff of the Red Army No. Орг / 3/2305 of 04.03.1944 all the tank regiments of the state №010 / 292 (with the T-70 company) were transferred to the new states [State No. 010/507] by April 1 , according to which they Totaled 21 to 35 T-34s.
That's why I don't like secondary sources. Actually the directive was as follows (short synopsis):

In accordance with newly issued TO&Es all separate tank regiments and tank regiments of mechanized brigades must be transferred to new TO&Es:
a) tank regiments of mechanized brigades (independent and in mechanized corps) organized according to 010/292 and 010/414 - to the TO&E 010/465 (368 men and 35 tanks)
b) 56 Guards, 25, 38, and 119 separate tank regiments equipped with T-34-85 tanks to the TO&E 010/464 (301 men and 21 T-34-85)
c) separate tank regiments (not in mechanized brigades) organized according to 010/292, 010/414, 010/507, 010/522 - to 010/463 (225 men and 21 T-34)

TO&Es 010/292, 010/507 and 010/552 must be cancelled and copies destroyed according to the standard procedure.

Published in "Russkiy arkhiv...", Vol 23

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Re: Mechanised Brigade shtat 10/420-432 1943

Post by Gary Kennedy » 01 Sep 2017 20:13

I've got detail for 010/414 and 010/463, summary only for 010/465, and I think this is the first time I've heard of 010/464!

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Re: Mechanised Brigade shtat 10/420-432 1943

Post by Art » 01 Sep 2017 21:43

An exotic and short-lived organization probably.

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Re: Mechanised Brigade shtat 10/420-432 1943

Post by Art » 02 Sep 2017 09:35

Tankfront mentions 010/464 actually adding rather ambiguously that this organization was not widely applied due to a lack of personnel:
http://tankfront.ru/ussr/organisation/s ... 4_otp.html

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Re: Mechanised Brigade shtat 10/420-432 1943

Post by Der Alte Fritz » 03 Sep 2017 07:24

The shtats that refer to Mech Corps are as follows:
Mech Corps:
010/20
010/290 (short lived Guards Mech Corps shtat around Jan 1943)
010/416
010/418 (main one from 1943 onwards)

Mech Bde:
010/370
010/420
010/551

Tank Regt/Bde
010/240
010/270
010/292
010/345 (seems to be used for English or American tanks?)
010/414
010/463
010/464
010/465
010/500

which seems to be a complete list from the Tankfront.ru website when looking at the organisational history of all the units. Some of these are only used for a short time or for a few units.

If any one can correct or add to this list, that would be of help.

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Re: Mechanised Brigade shtat 10/420-432 1943

Post by Der Alte Fritz » 04 Sep 2017 08:46

This is the information on each Mech Corp showing their shtat changes through the war. There are some anomalies which I have marked in bold italics but basically the list of shtats that I posted earlier matches this table.
Soviet Mech Corps Shtat by unit.pdf
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Re: Mechanised Brigade shtat 10/420-432 1943

Post by Der Alte Fritz » 04 Sep 2017 19:28

From Государственный Комитет Обороны Постановление № ГОКО-2791сс от 28 января 1943 г. О сформировании десяти танковых армий
On the Formation of 10 Tank Armies
Table 10
What sort of vehicles are these:
АДМ-750 Клуб-ные

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