Mechanised Brigade shtat 10/420-432 1943

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Re: Mechanised Brigade shtat 10/420-432 1943

Post by Art » 04 Sep 2017 20:42

Der Alte Fritz wrote: What sort of vehicles are these:
АДМ-750
Decontamination vehicle on GAZ-AAA chassis:
http://www.russianarms.ru/forum/index.php?topic=6970.0
Клуб-ные
Literally "club". Some sort of bus refurbished for recreational purpose, I suppose.

Eugen Pinak
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Re: Mechanised Brigade shtat 10/420-432 1943

Post by Eugen Pinak » 11 Sep 2017 11:13

Der Alte Fritz wrote:This is the information on each Mech Corp showing their shtat changes through the war. There are some anomalies which I have marked in bold italics but basically the list of shtats that I posted earlier matches this table.

Soviet Mech Corps Shtat by unit.pdf
Very impressive and useful reference. Thank you.

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Nakhodchanin
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Re: Mechanised Brigade shtat 10/420-432 1943

Post by Nakhodchanin » 09 Nov 2018 14:08

I greeting all comunity! I decided that material on Shtat №010/420 would be more relevant than announced here viewtopic.php?f=79&t=196789&start=135#p2167954
Organization Chart & Reporting Table of combat composition of 47 sep. Mechanized Brigade as of January 17, 1945.pdf
Original chart and table are here: chart - https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=455137783 and table - https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=455137784. These documents have twins, but the latter do not lie separately, they are included in "Report on fighting of 47 sep.MBde about encirclement East Prussian enemy troops group in period from 17.I. to 13.II.1945" on 93 pages https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=452581778, respectively - chart on 60th page and table on 62nd page. On 5th page this report listed incomplete armament according to the table: Rifles & Carbines - 193; SMG - 239; LMG - 31; HMG - 8; 82mm Mortars - 6; 76mm Guns - 1; ATR - 46. The main thing regarding the both Organization Charts - not displayed Auto-transport Company, but in Reporting Tables this Co was indicated. By the way, the above report will also be of interest to those who are researching the topic of Shermans in the Soviet service, respectively - 30th & 31st pages.

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Nakhodchanin
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Re: Mechanised Brigade shtat 10/420-432 1943

Post by Nakhodchanin » 24 Nov 2018 14:52

I greeting all comunity! The following edited document about Motorized Rifle Brigade partially corresponds to the content of this topic because number of Shtat are similar.
Organization Chart of Motorized Rifle Brigade as of May 28, 1943.jpg
The original of this Organization Chart is here: https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=451530405 Of all units and divisions of this brigade - 19th second formation (future 26th) according to the Shtat № 010/420-431, not shown only AAMG Co. Why? Simple answer - due to the absence of the unit itself! Proofs: in the formation of 19th MRBde was supposed AA Division in its composition, according to this document: Status report on the 19th Tank Corps on February 26, 1943 https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=132687253 (here 2nd page) but formation difficulties and this order http://tankfront.ru/ussr/doc/nko/prikaz ... 3_019.html, left 19th MRBde without AA element. Soon came the next order http://tankfront.ru/ussr/doc/nko/prikaz ... 10343.html, but 19th which has already become the 26th not received AAMG Co right up to the beginning of the Kursk battle. Documents from the brigade itself: Personnel note of 19th MRBde on April 1,1943,included in the combat report https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=451530377 (here 5th & 6th pages); Calculation for transportation by rail of 19th MRBde on June 16, 1943 https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=451530428 (here 4th & 5th pages). Documents of the Central Front on the status of reserve units, on May 30, 1943: https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=133337115 (here 1st page) and combat composition on July 5, 1943: https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=133320665 (here 20th page), pay attention not only to change brigade's number considered by us, but also on the fact of absence AAMG Co in 8th MRBde of 9th TC, this brigade still has AA Div (12xAAMG & 6xAAGuns).
Please let me off-topic, sadly that such a valuable document is presented in such terrifying quality, I appeal to the Russian-speaking part of the community, if suddenly you have your own interpretations of the text in the blocks of the scheme in provided document, please kindly comment! Thank you in advance! Most of all the difficulties are caused by the unit under the block of "Нач. артиллер." ("Chief of Art") in command group.
I appeal to the whole community, all my edited versions of Soviet Organization Charts have reduced the quality, if you need documents 100% quality write a personal message, indicating which format is required (PDF, JPEG, BMP & etc.)

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Gary Kennedy
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Re: Mechanised Brigade shtat 10/420-432 1943

Post by Gary Kennedy » 24 Nov 2018 19:14

Thanks for finding that schematic, especially in terms of the Rifle Battalion organisation. I've seen several totals given of 662 all ranks for the Battalion but not seen it broken down in that detail.

Gary

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Der Alte Fritz
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Re: Mechanised Brigade shtat 10/420-432 1943

Post by Der Alte Fritz » 24 Nov 2018 20:39

Well done Nakhodchanin. This is the most detailed wire frame diagram that we have seen to date, although we have seen other ones too. Allows us to firm up some estimates that we had made in the Mech Corps thread viewtopic.php?f=79&t=196789&start=105.

Your 662 battalion fits in with the scheme that we came up with for the changing battalion strength and finally we see a breakdown of the elusive Transport Company. This gives us a greater certainty about the vehicle/equipment numbers and distribution.

Thanks for the translation as well, that is a big help

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Nakhodchanin
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Re: Mechanised Brigade shtat 10/420-432 1943

Post by Nakhodchanin » 25 Nov 2018 03:00

Hello to the whole community! Special greeting to you Gary Kennedy and special greeting to you Der Alte Fritz! Thank you for the attention, I always ready to help if there is material for this! It's very good that both of you are here, I take this opportunity to reply to your message, Gary viewtopic.php?f=79&t=196789&start=135#p2168059 fully support you, this topic is needed - for now, thanks to the respected Art, topic of Tank Brigade of Shtat № 010/500-506 is fully disclosed (November, 1943 - May, 1945). What was before November, 1943 requires either separate consideration (like milestones - Shtat № 010/345-352 & Shtat № 010/270-277) either retrospectives (and other). But I will not take on this matter, not only because in my unprofessional research I put MotRfl/Mech/Arm Inf in the first place, "Pioneer" of this topic should be a person more status, like respected Der Alte Fritz! I have a question - is it acceptable that in the topic about MechBde I will lay out more material on the Organization Chart of MotRflBde, of course the corresponding number of Shtat 010/420-451?

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Gary Kennedy
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Re: Mechanised Brigade shtat 10/420-432 1943

Post by Gary Kennedy » 25 Nov 2018 16:14

Of course, you can post as you wish (within the rules of the forum), it's a free discussion platform.

Gary

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Re: Mechanised Brigade shtat 10/420-432 1943

Post by Art » 26 Nov 2018 07:41

Nakhodchanin wrote:
24 Nov 2018 14:52
Most of all the difficulties are caused by the unit under the block of "Нач. артиллер." ("Chief of Art") in command group.
Cinema and radio technician
Librarian

You can download the full-size image (about 6 M) by clicking the "save" button, that one is well readable.
A cute scheme, thanks for sharing it.

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Nakhodchanin
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Re: Mechanised Brigade shtat 10/420-432 1943

Post by Nakhodchanin » 02 Dec 2018 14:06

I greeting all comunity! Special greeting to you Gary Kennedy and special greeting to you Art! Thank you very much for the attention and for your answers and feedback! Art, your option interpretation of problem place logical, but in the second part - "Librarian" - not indisputable. I decided to make a comparison:
Variants.jpg
to block of "Политический отдел"("Politic Dpt") put the enlarged variant of lower word from problem block, and vice versa reduced word "Политический" put under problem lower word. You can see (while increasing) the distinctive features of 1st and 3rd letters - "П" & "Л", I specifically wrote last letter as capital letter, by the way characteristic feature of the author's handwriting, exactly such a spelling - big "л". Because of this, I have changed a bit the document - I displayed uncertainty with a question mark:
Organization Chart of Motorized Rifle Brigade as of May 28, 1943.jpg
(quality=95% in GIMP 2.8.22). I can not understand how to attach large files, hell with it - will only JPEG no more than 1 MB.

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Nakhodchanin
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Re: Mechanised Brigade shtat 10/420-432 1943

Post by Nakhodchanin » 02 Dec 2018 18:49

Once again, greetings to all! Previously posted Organization Charts (download/file.php?id=428591 & download/file.php?id=429624&t=1) displayed the combat composition as it should be according to Shtat. Now I would like to introduce to the community Organization Chart, reflecting the actual position of combat organization in front-line realities. This will be material from already familiar to us 26th (ex-19th) Motorized Rifle Brigade of 19th TC:
Organization Chart of 26 MRBde for the period of combat operations.jpg
original is here https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=451530163 I will supplement this material with the following document:
Organization Chart of Arty Units, that are part of 26 MRBde for the period of combat operations.jpg
original is here https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=451530168 Brigade as a motorized infantry element of TC, is significantly weakened in its artillery component - completely absent Mortar Bn, ATBty.s of MotRfl Bn.s, 2nd Bty of ArtDiv. The reason - combat losses during the liberation of the Crimea in the end of 1943. On pamyat-naroda.ru these documents are not dated, I guess that time, when these documents were compiled, it was end of winter - the beginning of spring 1944. Based on this documents:
1."Route table of 26th MRBde 28.2-1.2.44" https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=451530150
2."Information about the personnel, weapons and vehicles of 26th MRBde" (without date) https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=451530164
3."Detailed reporting table of the availability of weapons in units and subunits of 26th MRBde on March 17, 1944" https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=451530165
4."Detailed reporting table of the availability of ammunition in units and subunits of 26th MRBde on March 18, 1944" https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=451530166
5. "Information on the combat and numerical composition of artillery units of 26th MRBde on March 31, 1944" on 2 pages https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=451530167
6.Combat calculation of 1511st AT ArtRgt" (without date) https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=451530169
7."Information about the personnel and weapons of 26th MRBde on May 3, 1944" https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=451530171
8."Information about the availability of ammunition of 26th MRBde on May 3, 1944" https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=451530172
The main thing in these documents that attracted my attention is the fact of changes (non-staff and temporary) in the combat organization - not so much the strengthening of the artillery component of the motorized infantry element, as formation of additional command structure. In this particular case, the artillery command - temporary applicability to certain conditions.

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Re: Mechanised Brigade shtat 10/420-432 1943

Post by Art » 03 Dec 2018 08:13

Nakhodchanin wrote:
02 Dec 2018 14:06
I greeting all comunity! Special greeting to you Gary Kennedy and special greeting to you Art! Thank you very much for the attention and for your answers and feedback! Art, your option interpretation of problem place logical, but in the second part - "Librarian" - not indisputable.
Here is a part of the full-size scan:
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Nakhodchanin
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Re: Mechanised Brigade shtat 10/420-432 1943

Post by Nakhodchanin » 08 Dec 2018 16:30

I greeting all comunity! I apologize to everyone, especially to you, Art! It turned out ridiculous absurdity on my part - I spawned entities! I still worked through the old laptop on pamyat-naroda.ru, the pages of this site in my browser have two modes - "movement" and "links". The only when respected Art sent me a fragment of a full scale in response, I began to suspect something...I come from a stationary computer and for sure! There are more modes when viewing pages, the main thing of course is the mode - ''Original''. Instead of the original source for editing the size of 240 KB, there is a file of 37.4 MB! So now exactly the latest edition:
Organization Chart of Motorized Rifle Brigade as of May 28, 1943.jpg
I have a request to the respected administration - please delete my previous post in this thread (#58 of 05 Dec 2018, 02:19). Thank you all very much, separately thank you, Art!

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Der Alte Fritz
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Re: Mechanised Brigade shtat 10/420-432 1943

Post by Der Alte Fritz » 09 Dec 2018 10:18

Excellent work there! I see that the material for the 26th MRBde is their actual strengths whereas what we are looking for is the Shtat numbers, particularly over a period of time so that we can try and establish the minor changes that occurred from January 1943 onwards. You can discern some of these from the wire frame diagrams you posted but look out for Shtat numbers in particular. Keep up the good work.

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Re: Mechanised Brigade shtat 10/420-432 1943

Post by FORBIN Yves » 20 Jan 2019 12:18

A question please from what time Mechanised Bdes was equipped with M3 half-track and the 3 Infantry Bns ?

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