Mechanised Brigade shtat 10/420-432 1943

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Re: Mechanised Brigade shtat 10/420-432 1943

Post by Art » 05 Feb 2019 19:26

To explain myself: this organization posted is my reconstruction not a translation of an actual table of organization. However, I'm quite certain about all parts except political department and transport section, their detailed composition is obscure somewhat.

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Re: Mechanised Brigade shtat 10/420-432 1943

Post by Leo Niehorster » 05 Feb 2019 20:42

Greetings!

Thank you.
I was also referring to all the other shtat postings here on AHF.

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Re: Mechanised Brigade shtat 10/420-432 1943

Post by Art » 06 Feb 2019 11:54

HQ company mechanized/motorized rifle brigade, shtat 010/427 from February 1943
A. Command
- company commander (off)
- deputy commander (off)
- political deputy (off)
- company sergeant (NCO), carbine
- administrative NCO (NCO)

B. Communications platoon
- platoon commander (off)
1) radio section
- section leader, chief of RSB radio station (NCO), carbine
- chief of RB radio station (NCO), carbine
- 2 senior radio operators (NCO), carbine
- 2 radio operators (NCO), carbine
- driver (pvt)
- RSB radio
- RB radio, extended antenna
- GAZ-AA truck (1.5t) for radios

2) 3 telephone sections
- 3 sections leaders (NCO), carbine
- 24 wiremen/telephone operators (pvt), carbine
- driver (pvt)
- 2 switchboards, 14 field telephones
- GAZ-AA truck (1.5t) telephone equipment and personnel

3) messenger section
- section leader (NCO), carbine
- 5 motorcycle messengers (pvt), carbine
- 6 motorcycles w/ sidecar

4) Air warning post
- post leader (NCO), carbine
- 2 observers/signalers (pvt), carbine

C. Chemical defense platoon
- platoon commander (off)
1) Chemical reconnaissance section
- section leader (NCO), carbine
- 6 scouts (pvt), carbine
2) decontamination section
- section leader (NCO), carbine
- 5 decontamination chemists (pvt), carbine
- driver (pvt)
- ADM decontamination truck

D. Administrative section
- section leader (NCO), carbine
- storekeeper (pvt)
- cobbler (pvt)
- senior cook (pvt)
- cook (pvt)
- 2 drivers (pvt), carbine
- ZIS-5 truck (3t) for kitchen
- GAZ-AA truck (1.5t) for rations and personnel

Total company: 5 officers, 17 NCOs, 51 privates, 60 carbines, 6 motorcycles, 5 trucks
Again, that's my reconstruction. I'm not quite certain about company command and administrative section, but other elements seem to be reliable. Organization diagram posted here gives 75 men in the company instead of 73, which is due to 2 additional men in the company command group (medical sergeant, clerk?). I can't say what where this change came from.

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Re: Mechanised Brigade shtat 10/420-432 1943

Post by Nakhodchanin » 09 Feb 2019 19:18

I greeting all!Thank you very much Art for your reconstruction of HQ and HQ Co MR/M Bde! With your permission, I will supplement your big work with two very small finds from pamyat-naroda.ru:
Change in Shtat № 010-420. 01.jpg
Link:https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=454969573 Translation:
Change in Shtat № 010-420. 1.jpg
Change in Shtat № 010-420. 02.jpg
Link:https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=454868026 Translation:
Change in Shtat № 010-420. 2.jpg

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Re: Mechanised Brigade shtat 10/420-432 1943

Post by Nakhodchanin » 24 Feb 2019 14:16

Hello to the whole community! In the continuation and addition of this post: viewtopic.php?f=79&t=196779&start=60#p2182905 let us consider the section "5.Staffing of the brigade by engineering equipment". How were the engineering equipment distributed between the units and subunits?
Engineering means of MBde by Shtat p.1.jpg
Engineering means of MBde by Shtat p.2.jpg
Engineering means of MBde by Shtat p.3.jpg
Engineering means of MBde by Shtat p.4.jpg
Engineering means of MBde by Shtat p.5.jpg
Note: In square brackets in the column "Total" are data from the report of 47th sep.Mechanized Brigade. This table is based on the following materials from pamyat-naroda.ru: 1.''Staffing table of engineering equipment for Mechanized Brigade by data from 4th Guard Mechanized Corps of 25.05.1944'' on two pages, link: https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=452079613. To be continued...
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Nakhodchanin
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Re: Mechanised Brigade shtat 10/420-432 1943

Post by Nakhodchanin » 24 Feb 2019 15:14

...let's continue:
Staffing table of engineering equipment for MBde (data from 4th Grd.MC 25.05.1944) p.1.jpg
Staffing table of engineering equipment for MBde (data from 4th Grd.MC 25.05.1944) p.2.jpg
2.''Report on availability, needs and movement of engineering equipment of 13th Guard Mechanized Brigade from January 1 to 25, 1945'' on two pages and 3.''Report on availability, needs and movement of engineering equipment of 13th Guard Mechanized Brigade from January 25 to February 25, 1945'' on two pages. Links: https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=452079615 (here 2nd & 3rd ages)
Report on availability, needs and movement of engineering equipment of 13th Grd.MBde from January 1 to 25, 1945 p.1.jpg
Report on availability, needs and movement of engineering equipment of 13th Grd.MBde from January 1 to 25, 1945 p.2.jpg
and https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=452079618 (here 3rd & 4th pages). The documents of the 13th Grd.MBde are valuable because they indicate the detailed content of the number engineering Sets - №63, №68 and №72. For comparison and analysis - material of this kind from 6th Guard Mechanized Brigade, but for earlier period:
Application for engineering equipment of 6th Grd.MBde February, 1944.jpg
link - https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=452389459 I would like to clarify, I initially set my goal to consider the Tables of Equipment for Mechanized Brigade of Shtat №№ 010/420-431, 010/451 with Tank Regiment of Shtat № 010/465. In all my materials by this topic, already posted here I try to follow my original plan. Differences in the data, which are particularly noticeable in table ''Engineering means of MBde by Shtat'', require clarification - the reason may lie in changes and additions of Shtat, that are not yet known.

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Nakhodchanin
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Re: Mechanised Brigade shtat 10/420-432 1943

Post by Nakhodchanin » 03 Mar 2019 04:24

Hello to all! In addition to the previous post - one PDF file, as alternative to five JPG files:
Engineering means of MBde by Shtat.pdf
I would also like to share an interesting and useful document -
Calculation on transportation of 26th MRBde on vehicles, July 1944 (with norms calculation of loading personnel, food & ammo).jpg
This is a lightweight, so to speak "trial version", the original which is here, on the 4th page https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=451530186 weighs 23.2 MB. I decided that this material needs to be translated, to pull pieces of information prevented the commitment to the authenticity. As usual, a couple of files:
Calculation on transportation of 26th MRBde on trucks, data of July 1944.jpg
Calculation on transportation of 26th MRBde on trucks, data of July 1944.pdf
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Der Alte Fritz
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Re: Mechanised Brigade shtat 10/420-432 1943

Post by Der Alte Fritz » 08 Mar 2019 12:43

Fascinating documents on the engineering equipment for Mech and Motor Rifle Bde.

Just started to have a look at the last document on the Calculation of transportation, its one of the more detail ones that I have seen. I particularly like the little table at the bottom listing the loading characteristics of the various vehicles.

One question on your table what is the Russian for the column "Need for cargo vehicles" - is this the number of vehicles that they are short?
Other documents in this section show a nice diagram of the march order of the column and another shows the various echelons in greater detail but it is fascinating to see how much materiel they were planning to carry. There is no indication that this unit needs to make several 'lifts' in order to move the entire unit, whereas we have seen in other documents that units were being carried in two or more 'lifts'.

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Re: Mechanised Brigade shtat 10/420-432 1943

Post by Nakhodchanin » 09 Mar 2019 16:47

I greeting all! Special greeting to you Der Alte Fritz! Thank you for the attention!
Der Alte Fritz wrote: One question on your table what is the Russian for the column "Need for cargo vehicles" - is this the number of vehicles that they are short?
Yes, that's right! The last column is notes, there, at the end of the line there is a question mark and the question itself is written in red font: ''10 trucks are intended for transportation of ammo and food''. In Russian, everything is very short: ''(10 маш. б/пр. продов.)''. But also there may be a banal misprint, the line below gives data on motor transport company, in which indicates a suspiciously very small number of trucks. If you decide to make a detailed check of the calculation of weight distribution by the number of units of cargo transport be sure to keep in mind the possibility of annoying typos! I did not plan to translate such documents, but the information under the table, namely the weight of one ammo-load for each type of individual and group small fire-arms and artillery armament in kilograms, is directly related to our topic. This data is shown in Tables of artillery equipment (Табель артиллерийского имущества) of each Shtat. To my regret, about these data on artillery equipment of a post won't be yet, owing to lack of those. With medicine and chemistry, too, most. So the next will be armored equipment.

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Re: Mechanised Brigade shtat 10/420-432 1943

Post by Art » 10 Mar 2019 11:21

Art wrote:
20 Jan 2019 17:30
Theoretically the infantry in the mechanized/motorized brigades was supposed to be transported by trucks. In reality given a chronic shortage of motor transport a large part of them marched on foot.
Comrade Stalin gave his personal instructions in June 1943: "Tables of organization of the tank and mechanized corps must be revised to reduce the number of trucks. Trucks should be given only for supply of fuel and ammunition, whereas men should walk on foot"
as recorded in a diary of general Biryukov:
http://militera.lib.ru/db/birukov_ni2/22.html
I guess, that was applied not to formal tables of organization, but rather to practical allocations of trucks to units.

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Re: Mechanised Brigade shtat 10/420-432 1943

Post by Nakhodchanin » 10 Mar 2019 18:10

Once again, hello all! Special greeting to you Art! I agree with your last post, for my part, I would like to note that perhaps it was the line of rigid optimization in the distribution of motor transport vehicles for motorized infantry by the Supreme command that led to the disappearance of that type of unit of Soviet Armored and Mechanized troops as a separate motorized rifle brigade and reducing the number of separate mechanized brigades to two in the acting army on the Soviet-German front. At the same time, thanks to Lend-Lease, there was a process of improving the situation with motor transport, and here the likelihood of special cases grew - somewhere it could be better, and somewhere worse. By the way, this topic is unintentionally reflected by us in this thread. At first, respected Der Alte Fritz here viewtopic.php?f=79&t=196779&start=60#p2184121 gave a link to the document of 47th sep.MechBde, then from me provided the information of 26th MotRflBde from 19th TC, here viewtopic.php?f=79&t=196779&start=60#p2185018 and here viewtopic.php?f=79&t=196779&start=75#p2192329. According to the document from 47th, with transport there everything is excellent - individual truck for sappers, providing combat operations in each of the two motorized rifle battalions! It is just gorgeous even for 1944! Why? And why 2nd battalion not so secured? The answers here: https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=452405956 - ''Planned table of the battle to enter the breakthrough and the period of offensive operations of 47th sep.MBde of October 25, 1944'' on two pages and here: https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=452405955 - ''Operation order №30 of October 24, 1944 from Bde HQ 47th sep.MBde'' on two pages. The main conclusion - sep.MBde in this particular case, was a motorized infantry means of enhancing for the tank army (5th Grd TA), accordingly, the brigade command could count on compensation for the strengthening of its battalion combat groups by its own brigade motor transport from the resources of the army motor transport. Moreover, during the operation, the brigade commander have requesting from the command of tank army engineering-sapper forces and means for repairing roads, on which brigade marches were supposed - she had to follow the two tank corps of army: https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=452405965 - on 1st page. Yes, the banal condition of roads led to the fact that the brigade commander was forced to limit the number of vehicles when planning combat marches of units of his brigade, signatures on schemes, here: https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=452081232 - ''Deployment scheme for entering into the breakthrough of the 47th sep.MBde'' and here: https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=452081233 - ''The diagram of battle order to the line of overtaking infantry and the deployment of 47th sep.MBde''. I guess, according to the results of the above information, the indication of comrade Stalin can be interpreted as a harsh, but necessary guide to action in cruel realities, for example, a separate tank or mechanized corps in the combined arms army after marches on broken roads, which engineering-sapper army troops did not have time or were not able to repair, could remain virtually without serviceable motor transport vehicles. All documents on the above links are very interesting, but there is no time to translate them yet.

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Re: Mechanised Brigade shtat 10/420-432 1943

Post by Der Alte Fritz » 15 Mar 2019 15:35

We can approach the problem from the other direction and look at the speed of advance obtained by Mechanised Corps and Brigades in actual operations. Certainly the ones attached to Tank Corps managed to keep up with the Tank Brigades which must indicate some troops being carried in trucks.
However in the case of Mech Corps, they were supposed to be 1 Mech Corps and 2 Tank Corps with each Tank Army (order on formation of Tank Armies in Jan 1943) but in reality by 1944, Tank Armies consisted of only 2 Tank Corps and the Mech Corps were held in Front Reserve and used in independent operations or for commitment behind the Tank Armies or on their flanks.

What is great about the 26 Motor Rifle Brigade table is that the unit seems to be almost complete for a change with a strength only 83 men below the Shtat total and it shows 103 trucks being used to transport personnel which is around what we would expect for the Transport Companies given the different sizes of the vehicles.

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Re: Mechanised Brigade shtat 10/420-432 1943

Post by Nakhodchanin » 18 Mar 2019 13:52

Hello to the whole community! Special greeting to you Der Alte Fritz! Your view of the problem, "on the other hand", is interesting - the scale of consideration of the problem is wider. After a week from the time of writing my last post, I am more self-critical in evaluating my text - the last example with Mech Corps, at the end of the post, is not entirely successful, since the references are given to documents related to the separate Mech Brigade. I hope I managed to reveal my main thesis - particular cases derived from variable factors: terrain and climate conditions, state of the local transport infrastructure, degree of analysis and level of decisions on logistics by command, lead to a common phenomenon when, with sufficient staffing by motor transport for transporting of units and subunits of Mech Brigade, the basis of its composition - motorized rifle battalions had transferring by foot march (sometimes special companies (SMG, ATR, Engr-Mine) joined them). I want to supplement with several documents some points in my previous post: 1.here to this place:
Yes, the banal condition of roads led to the fact that the brigade commander was forced to limit the number of vehicles when planning combat marches of units of his brigade
this document - https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=452081423 "Report of Commander of 47th sep.MBde to Commander of 5th Guards Tank Army of October 26, 1944". Note the peculiar soviet military term - "осаперены" in the document:"3.Tanks and vehicles are equipped by sapper kits (on vehicles there fascines and mats, on tanks - logs)"; 2.and to this place:
...accordingly, the brigade command could count on compensation for the strengthening of its battalion combat groups by its own brigade motor transport from the resources of the army motor transport.
By the way, and an excerpt from your post:
Der Alte Fritz wrote:
Certainly the ones attached to Tank Corps managed to keep up with the Tank Brigades which must indicate some troops being carried in trucks.
How “dense" an escort could be by the units attached to Tank Corps in such cases - how far their own motor transport could move? In the next document - https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=452405935 "Operation order №23 of Staff of 47th sep.MBde of October 3, 1944" on three pages, here on 2nd page - point "д.)" of section "Задачи" of 5th paragraph:"During to occupy of defense by the battalion, wheeled vehicles should be to have in companies". For me, this is still an isolated case of a such order concerning motor transport in documents of the Soviet motorized infantry. On the degree of risk of possible losses from enemy actions in such cases, when the brigade command was forced to place motor transport vehicles near/directly in combat formations can be judged by the following document - https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=452081476 “Operational summary report № 70 of Staff of 47th sep.MBde of November 19, 1944” on two pages, here see paragraphs ''2.'' and ''3.'' on 1st page. According to information from this document you can make the assumption that the losses of the individual and group small arms (light machine guns) and the losses of ammo of small-arms and mortar from artillery and mortar fire of the enemy occurred that all the above equipment was on the trucks. These motor vehicles most likely has not been properly dispersed, dug in and camouflaged by personnel after exiting on the initial positions. Details of the incident in other documents are not specified, in the next document - https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=452081477 "Combat report № 110 of Staff of 47th sep.MBde of November 20, 1944", here see point ''4.'' - made an addition on material losses, it possible was madeing calculation of the annihilated stocks of POL in the container, which were on transport vehicles, in addition to their own refuel in fuel tanks. About the fact of possible fixing of losses retroactively - Off-topic!

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Re: Mechanised Brigade shtat 10/420-432 1943

Post by FORBIN Yves » 26 Mar 2019 19:02

Please, Independent Mechanised Brigades have same organisation than those attached to Mechanised Corps ?

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Re: Mechanised Brigade shtat 10/420-432 1943

Post by Der Alte Fritz » 27 Mar 2019 15:06

Yes they are the same and Motor Rifle Brigades are the same except for the Tanks

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