Mechanised Corps 2nd Generation

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Der Alte Fritz
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Re: Mechanised Corps 2nd Generation

Post by Der Alte Fritz » 28 Jul 2018 22:38

The ZIS-3 does not appear in this shat - all guns mentioned as USV (eg. in Artillery Division)

In the March 1942 04/200 again only the USV is mentioned as "76-мм пушек обр. 1939 г. с панорамами и передками" while in the later December 1942 04/550 the ZIS-3 only is used.

I would think that the phrase could be read "Guns AT-gun 76 mm lightweight / USV / or 45mm" which could either mean your explaination or could refer to a stripped down version of the USV perhaps minus a shield for use in AT work?

Meaning remains obscure to me so I left it as an ambiguous phrase.

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Re: Mechanised Corps 2nd Generation

Post by Sharposhnikov » 28 Jul 2018 23:29

I have a collection of orders establishing the early Guards Rifle Corps in the first quarter of 1942, and every one of them calls for each Corps to have formed for it an artillery regiment (shtat 08/85) including a battalion of, specifically, USV 76mm cannon. Since, according to the "Entsiklopediya Otechestvennoi Artillerii"(Shirokorad, A. B. Minsk. 2000) the ZIS-3 went into production in Feb 42 and by the end of 1942 Zavod 92 had delivered a little over 10,000 ZIS-3s, it would be the 'standard' in the shtatnii of late 1942 on, whereas early in 1942 the USV was the latest of the 76.2mm 'divisional' cannon and so would have been the 'standard' 76.mm gun. That is also consistent with the shtat 04/200 specifying USVs while the 04/550 at the end of the year specifying ZIS-3s.

The photographs I found in a post-Soviet publication all show USVs in early 1943 used in antitank artillery units (unfortunately, I have not been able to identify the specific regiment/brigade), all with the full-sized gun shields. That doesn't mean that, as the lighter ZIS-3 became more common from late 1942 on, there wasn't some 'lightening' of the older model 76.2mm cannon to give therm the same relative mobility as the ZIS-3.

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Leo Niehorster
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Re: Mechanised Corps 2nd Generation

Post by Leo Niehorster » 29 Jul 2018 16:47

Hi,
Sorry to be a nuisance.
Der Alte Fritz wrote:
26 Jul 2018 06:39
<snip>
Can be downloaded from here: https://www.hgwdavie.com/data-appendix/
<snip>
Another question about your spread sheet:
ШТАТ № 010/374 AAA Battalion

Lines 24ff Motor Transport Authorized
  1 Motor vehicle light
10 Motor vehicle cargo 2.5t
16 Motor vehicle cargo 1.5t
  1 Motor trailer kitchen

However, The vehicles shown are *
  0 Motor vehicle light
13 Motor vehicle cargo 2.5t
10 Motor vehicle cargo 1.5t
  0 Motor trailer kitchen
= 23 vehicles
Missing are 1×light vehicle, 6×1.5-ton, and 1×kitchen trailer.
Over authorization are 3×2.5-ton.

* Based on the following:
12×2.5-ton — Gun Plt (3 batteries @ 4)
  1×2.5-ton — Plt for ammo supply
  1×1.5-ton — Admin Plt, Radio Det
  3×1.5-ton — Det Recon & Signal (3 batteries @ 1)
  3×1.5-ton — Plt AAMG Plt for ammo supply
  2×1.5-ton — Plt for ammo supply

Is there a missing transport / mess platoon which would account for the missing vehicles?
[The 23 drivers for the motor vehicles. And the shown personnel totals seem add up correctly.]

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Leo
Last edited by Leo Niehorster on 29 Jul 2018 19:56, edited 1 time in total.
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Der Alte Fritz
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Re: Mechanised Corps 2nd Generation

Post by Der Alte Fritz » 29 Jul 2018 18:51

Looks to be missing the final page with the Supply Platoon

010/374 AA Bn vehicles:
1) Administrative platoon: Radio section: 1 x 1.5t
2) 3 Gun Batteries each: Admin Platoon: Recce Section: 1 x 1.5t
3 Gun Batteries each: Gun Platoon: 4 x 2.5t
3) Platoon of AA MG: 3 x 1.5t
4) Supply Platoon: 1 x 2.5t and 2 x 1.5t
Economic Detachment:
Motor vehicle light x 1
Motor vehicle cargo 2.5t with barrels of fuel and spare parts x 1
Motor vehicle cargo 2.5t for kitchen and rations x 1
Motor vehicle cargo 1.5t for personnel and command staff x 1
Motor trailer kitchen x 1

total:
Light x 1
1.5t x 10
2.5t x 15 (might read 16?)
trailers x 1

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Der Alte Fritz
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Re: Mechanised Corps 2nd Generation

Post by Der Alte Fritz » 29 Jul 2018 18:52

HQ Company line 8: should read Sapper Platoon not Sanitary Platoon.
Actual platoon details are correct.

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Leo Niehorster
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Re: Mechanised Corps 2nd Generation

Post by Leo Niehorster » 29 Jul 2018 20:46

OK.
Many thanks.

Assuming:
2 NCO and 6 other ranks for the service detachment:
  1×Commander detachment – senior Storekeeper — sergeant of administrative service
  1×Senior cook — sergeant of administrative service
  1×Cobbler — Soldiers
  1×cook — Soldiers
  4×driver — Soldiers
1×motor vehicle light
1×1,5-ton — personnel and command staff
1×2,5-ton — with barrels of fuel and spare parts
1×2.5-ton — for kitchen and rations
1×motor trailer kitchen

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Der Alte Fritz
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Re: Mechanised Corps 2nd Generation

Post by Der Alte Fritz » 30 Jul 2018 07:00

C. Support units
A. Platoon for munitions supply
Chief of munitions supply Military technician 2nd grade 1
Platoon commander – Junior technical specialist Military technician 2nd grade 1
Senior gunsmith Sergeant of technical service 1
Senior laboratory worker corporal 1
Radio technician junior sergeant of technical service 1
Senior driver corporal 1
Driver soldier 2
Motor vehicle cargo 2.5t for stores
Motor vehicle cargo 1.5t for munitions
total 8
B. Economic Detachment
Chief of Economic Detachment – Brigade Sergeant Major
Asst Chief of Economic Detachment Sergeant of administrative service 1
Senior cook junior sergeant of administrative service 1
Cook soldier 1
Driver soldier 4
Motor vehicle light
Motor vehicle cargo 2.5t with barrels of fuel and spare parts
Motor vehicle cargo 2.5t for kitchen and rations
Motor vehicle cargo 1.5t for personnel and command staff
Motor trailer kitchen
total 7
total for sub-section supply 15

Total for the Division 196

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Leo Niehorster
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Re: Mechanised Corps 2nd Generation

Post by Leo Niehorster » 30 Jul 2018 08:20

Dear H.G.W.,
Many thanks, indeed!

And now for the rest of the early 1942 tank corps ... :wink:

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Re: Mechanised Corps 2nd Generation

Post by Der Alte Fritz » 03 Aug 2018 16:46

Now that we have established Штат № 010/370 in some detail it should be possible to recreate Штат № 010/420 Motor Rifle Brigade and then Mechanised Brigade for March 1943

The first job is to understand the range of figures found in the sources
Screenshot 2018-08-03 16.28.21.png
From this we can see that the most common Motor Rifle establishment is 3215 strong and these are the common variants in the Brigade set up
Screenshot 2018-08-03 16.27.45.png
the difference in Motor Rifle Battalion strength are shown in the changes here
Screenshot 2018-08-03 16.28.00.png
with this understanding we can now attempt to turn the Штат № 010/370 into the Штат № 010/420 starting by adjusting the number of vehicles. Zaloga and Ness provide the number of vehicles per unit and Pamyat Naroda (https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=259869573) the total number of vehicles by type after which it is straightforward to amend the Штат № 010/320.

Once this is done, the number of DRIVERS can be adjusted for each sub-unit and then from here we can work on the remaining relatively small changes in personnel.

010/370 – 84 personnel - 10 vehicles
010/420 – 82 personnel – 6 vehicles so loss of 4 drivers and 2 additional unknown soldiers

010/371 - 642 personnel
010/421 – 661 personnel

From Art:
Probable original organization of the Motor Rifle Battalion/Mechanized Brigade (*) - Shat 010/421 as introduced in February 1943
* also Motor Rifle Battalion of the Motor Rifle Brigade

Battalion HQ - 19 men
Signals platoon - 22
Three Rifle Companies - each 125 men
Machine Gun Company - 56
Anti-Tank Battery - 33
Anti-Tank Rifle Company - 49
Mortar Company - 43
SMG platoon - 30
Service platoon - 29
Medical aid point (platoon) - 6
Total 662 men

Changes compared with 010/371 (the later version posted above):
a) 2 men added to the signals platoon (probably additional telephonists)
b) 1 men added to the machine gun platoon/rifle company
c) ATR company - assistant platoon commander removed from every platoon, so each platoon had 15 men and 6 ATRs
d) SMG platoon - It seems that 010/371platoon had 1 officer and 29 sergeants. In the 010/421 most sergeants replaced with privates, otherwise no changes in the personnel and weapons strength.
e) Service company replaced with service platoon. That's a toughest puzzle. I suppose all trucks meant to transport personnel were removed and consolidated under brigade's truck company. So service platoon must include a motor workshop, 1 weapons workshop, a small transport section with several trucks for fuel and ammunition, and an administrative section with cooks and field kitchens and trucks for rations.


Service Company
Command: Deputy Commander Platoon Company sergeant major and Political Officer deleted (on the basis they does not get deleted in Autumn)
a) Motor Transport Platoon all 4 transport sections deleted entirely except for single driver and Car that is 1 Lieutenant 4 sergeants and 31 drivers with 31 1.5t cargo trucks.
Section for delivery of ammunition fuel and engineers equipment has to stay with a reduced complement of 8 men as the 6 supply lorries need to stay
b) Repair platoon – lose a driver locksmith and sergeant-major to leave 2 men and a Type A workshop. Weapons workshop lose Master of artillery and Master of Chemical Protection to give a total of 4 men. This leaves 7 men in the platoon with 3 vehicles.
c) Platoon for Economic supply lose 1 cobbler and 3 drivers to leave 12 in platoon. The 3 rations and stores vehicles are deleted. This is a judgement call as we could have deleted 3 of the Delivery section vehicles instead to get the same number of men 29 and vehicles 12.

Add in MG Company. Structure can be seen here:
010-420 ЦАМО РФ.jpg
so that works out as Art described with
Company commander senior lieutenant
Political officer
3 MG Platoons each of
1 Senior sergeant
3 junior sergeants
3 Lance corporals
10 soldiers and 3 HMG
Transport section of 3 Cargo vehicles 1.5t with 3 drivers.
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Der Alte Fritz
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Re: Mechanised Corps 2nd Generation

Post by Der Alte Fritz » 03 Aug 2018 17:34

The other big change from 010/370 is in the Administration Company which falls from 105 men to 73 men.
THis large change is effected by the loss of the Sapper Platoon which is replaced by a separate 010/429 Engineer-Mine Company.
The other main change is the replacement of 4 "Pygmy" light cars by motorcycles in the Communications Platoon.
This brings the total personnel down to 80. The additional losses are unknown but we could speculate about the vehicles which from 10 Cargo 1.5t to 4 Cargo 1.4t so:
1 radio lorry (instead 2)
1 telephone lorry (instead of 2)
Air Raid Warning Post lorry deleted
Chemical Platoon reconnaissance lorry deleted
1 ADM-750 degassing lorry
1 Rations lorry (instead of 2)
1 motor vehicle cargo 2.5t with kitchen trailer

which gives us
6 motorcycles
4 motor vehicle cargo 1.5t
1 motor vehicle cargo 2.5t with kitchen trailer

delete the drivers and we are now at 75 personnel, so loss of Deputy company commander and political officer would bring it down to 73.

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Leo Niehorster
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Re: Mechanised Corps 2nd Generation

Post by Leo Niehorster » 04 Aug 2018 16:23

I am working on the Tank Corps in April/May 1942.

What was the numbering of the sub-units of the Motorized Rifle Brigades in April 1942?
I only have the first four brigades, i.a.w. Sharp:
● 1 Mot Rifle Brig —— 445, 446, 447 Mot Rifle Bn —— 457 Mortar Bn —— 461 Art Bn —— ?
● 2 Mot Rifle Brig —— 448, 449, 450 Mot Rifle Bn —— 458 Mortar Bn —— 462 Art Bn —— 466 AAA Bn
● 3 Mot Rifle Brig —— 451, 452, 453 Mot Rifle Bn —— 459 Mortar Bn —— 463 Art Bn —— ?
● 4 Mot Rifle Brig —— 454, 455, 456 Mot Rifle Bn —— 460 Mortar Bn —— 464 Art Bn —— ?
What was the numbering of the rest?

Note:
According to Sharp, where he lists motorized rifle brigades at all, they have merely "1st, 2nd, 3rd Mot Rifle Battalion", and no mention of the mortar, artillery, or AAA battalions.
Was this the numbering system? If that is the case, would the firing battalions have carried the brigade's number?

A similar request for the Tank Brigades in April 1942. Sharp has many, but by no means all.

Any assistance would be welcome.

Cheers
Leo
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Re: Mechanised Corps 2nd Generation

Post by Der Alte Fritz » 05 Aug 2018 10:59

010/420 Mortar Battalion

delete Cargo 1.5t for personnel of 120mm mortar company
delete Cargo 1.5t for personnel of 82mm mortar company
Cargo 1.5t for munitions and fuel reduced from 6 to 2
reduced number of drivers from 26 to 19 so that transport platoon now numbers 24 down from 31

This brings total of battalion down to 188 with the actual total being a
203 a difference of 15 however I do not know where these are added.

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Re: Mechanised Corps 2nd Generation

Post by Der Alte Fritz » 05 Aug 2018 17:06

010/422 Artillery Battalion
reduced transport department
delete Cargo 1.5t for spare parts
delete Cargo 1.5t for personnel and headquarters
brings total of Cargo 1.5t vehicles down from 11 to 7
number of drivers drops down to 4
Total number of Battalion at 220 now correct

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Re: Mechanised Corps 2nd Generation

Post by Der Alte Fritz » 08 Aug 2018 20:55

010/426 Reconnaissance Company

Vehicles reduced from
7 GAZ, 1 ZIS with kitchen trailer and 1 Workshop A
to:
4 GAZ, 1 ZIS with kitchen trailer and no workshop

The most likely way this was done was to keep the radio truck (which means that the personnel transport of the SMG company must now go otherwise the total would be 4 GAZ). This allows us to keep 2 of the GAZ vehicles in the Supply detachment, only losing the personnel transport. The other alternative is to keep the SMG platoon vehicles in which case the radio truck must go and all the supply vehicles except for the ZIS kitchen truck.

The reduction of 5 drivers accounts for the difference between the two shtats.

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Re: Mechanised Corps 2nd Generation

Post by Der Alte Fritz » 08 Aug 2018 21:14

010/425 SMG Company

noticed that I missed the Economy Detachment off the end ( I will post a new version of the spreadsheet when it is all corrected)
010/376 SMG Company
4. Economic Detachment
Commander of the detachment – Company sergeant-major
Gunsmith Sergeant of the technical service 1
Senior cook Sergeant of the administrative service 1
Cook Soldier 1
Medic Soldier 1
total 4
Total for the company 102

при рота всех видов довольствия состоит рота пре тивотанковых ружей вригады
This company has the same levels of allowances as the company of AT rifles
So the 010/425 Company was already described earlier in the thread however to reach the total of 96 after the Transport Detachment is deleted this must include the Detachment Sergeant and all but one of the drivers (the single remaining one is for the ZIS-5 kitchen truck)

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