Soviet Naval Battles

[igorr]

I've read also about another author, Platonov, that should be too good material.(i've read his name mentioned often close to Morozov). He too is active online?

No, never see him online. He is Morozov's close friend and he not write about subs for long time. When he write, he never use german documents, only books like Meister and Rohwer. So, he was plagued by errors.

I just wanted to know your opinion about the entry for ShCh-213 vs Turkish merchant Adam
That post on tsushima.net seemed quiet genuine (it was a list with all the Turkish confirmed/admitted by them)
It was light damage by unexploded torp. but if there was some kind of damage should be included in the career of the sub.

Man who wrote this stated that he work with turkish archives. I think we can agree with him in presence of 60-cm long scratch on ships board. Btw he named this ship ADAN, not ADAM.

L-4
19/Nov/41 sunk German auxiliary minesweeper D-2 with mine.
I've seen this victory as described often as "Bulgarian auxiliary minesweeper W-2". It was a mistake? Or the ship had switched owner? Maybe it was a Bulgarian vessel used by Germans or the opposite.

This cutter was built in Bulgaria for Germany and changed some abbreviation through career i think. Did You read a Groener 8-volume work about german navies for all times? Very recomended reading.

ShCh-205:
18/May/42 damaged Turkish merchant Duatepe (128 GRT) gunfire.
and damaged Turkish schooner Mahbuba Jahan (20 GTR)gunfire the same day.
Wrecksite mention it as sunk (as almost all the other sources about soviet submarines) and town.ural.ru mention it was sunk on shallow water after being shelled. Maybe it was just partially sunk/run aground and then raised?

I can't answer this question.

PS
Today tsushima.su seems to have problems...

Yes, this happen from time to time, and it may occur that site never be up again. Man who manned them lost his interest in this work long time ago. It is miracle that site still run until now.

[lupodimare89]

Thank you for further details.

Man who wrote this stated that he work with turkish archives. I think we can agree with him in presence of 60-cm long scratch on ships board. Btw he named this ship ADAN, not ADAM.

Yeah, it's hard that such kind of attacks can cause a damage worth to put a ship on repair for an amount of time that can be considered valuable. Worth to check it every time however.

This cutter was built in Bulgaria for Germany and changed some abbreviation through career i think. Did You read a Groener 8-volume work about german navies for all times? Very recomended reading.

It's in english? Sadly it's very hard for me to have these books.. even for a cost matter. And also because often books (well done) dealing with Soviet navy are not printed in english..
That's why i've to put all my research on internet.
I'm into an italian site of submarines (actually focused on everything) that's one of the largest we've but it has terrible lacks of knowledge for the other navies and there is interest among people to know more about the Soviet navy.
With all our discussions i've managed to create these things for italian readers:
http://www.xmasgrupsom.com/public/index ... entry31200
this about Soviet MTBs (i've done the page for Baltic, and soon Artic) with great pleasure of one admin that enjoy reading of small assault crafts. I've made it after the previous stuff you wrote and i asked.
http://www.xmasgrupsom.com/public/index ... wforum=201
This as section for Soviet submarines (i translated in italian the names after a request)
And here i started from data of town.ural.ru + a little of uboat.net, then i mixed it, checked for the Morozov list and started make questions here ^^

I know it's not a great deal (and there can be mistakes that i will correct with time) but i've to thank you also by all the people in my country that check these site for info in our language of submarines (also the admin of another forum, regiamarinaitaliana.forum.gratis.org, was interested about it) will finally know about what happened on eastern front.
(i can easily say you that ALL the knlowedge was "we fought russians on Ladoga and Black Sea, then they also tried to torpedo the Tirpitz and sunk the Gustaloff with lots of people on it" and nothing else)
I've even made for pubblic view the corrections on overclaims in Ladoga and Black Sea
http://www.xmasgrupsom.com/public/index ... topic=3839
http://www.xmasgrupsom.com/public/index ... topic=2413

[igorr]

This cutter was built in Bulgaria for Germany and changed some abbreviation through career i think. Did You read a Groener 8-volume work about german navies for all times? Very recomended reading.

It's in english? Sadly it's very hard for me to have these books.. even for a cost matter. And also because often books (well done) dealing with Soviet navy are not printed in english..

This Groener's book of course in german. I've see some very short version in english but it lacks many-many ships.
In my point of view Groener's work can be used by non-german-speaking user, but of course i may be wrong because i'm german-speaking.
And, which more important, it available in Internet for download. Try to seek "Die deutschen Kriegsschiffe 1815-1945"

[lupodimare89]

I wil see in future, for now i'm alread busy with that english version of the German archivies for Black Sea (i'm exploring it little by little).


Now, here a little comparison with Morozov lists of submarines in Artic and what's different with the previous claim:

patrol ship V-5909 Coronel sunk 1/Feb/43. Not on Morozov list, i've all with multiple versions: as sunk by M-172 (denied by others too) , or sunk by mine laid by K-3 or MO-boats.


12/Sett/42 Norwegian merchant Tanahorn (366 GTR) hit and maybe damaged with unexploded torpedo by ShCh-422. (but not present on Morozov list)
(about this issue however i'm a bit in doubt. I mean... if an unexploded torpedo hit deserve to be listed as a success or not of the submarine. I think that if there was not a confirmed damage, it should be not).

8/Dec/43 damaged Norwegian merchant Stamsund (864 GRT) with unexploded torpedo
(sometimes said to be Valerie of 1016 GRT) by submarine S-55 (again another unex.torpedo case)

17/May/43 sunk German tanker Eurostadt (1118 GRT) torpedo. Cargo of 1.280tons of fuel
and damaged German merchant Wartheland (3676 GRT) with unexploded torpedo during the same attack. by attack of S-56. This is a bit complicated. I've seen wrote clearly that the Wartheland was damaged by the hit (possibly lightly however) and that was wrote by Platonov (but you say that he's less reliable as source)
However here too Morozov doesn't put it into the list, but if there was some kind of light damage, this one (differently from Stamsund and Tanahorn, without a confirmation) could be considered.

submarine S-14 on 16/Oct/44 may have sunk with torpedo an unnamed Norwegian fishing boat. (no mention on Morozov's list).

Of the three claims of submarine L-15, only this one is left without explain (to me):
9/May/44 claim to have sunk German merchant Odin (5806 GRT) with mine

Claims with mines by L-22 (another pair of claims are now by on MO mines)
28/Dec/43 sunk German minesweeper R-64 (125 GTR) mine
24/Oct/44 sunk German patrol ship NKi 05 / Jarnbarden (178 GRT) mine (often mistakenly described as victim of M-171, but it’s impossible (M-class could not lay mines)(could also have been sunk by a mine of L-20 but i've read it’s less probable)
Both not on Morozov's list ... so possibly sunk on someone's else mine.

Claims of K-2 (both not on Morozov's list and possibly due something else)
12/Sept/41 damaged German merchant Lofoten (157 GTR) gunfire. It run aground
19/Nov/42 forced to run aground German merchant Akka (2646 GTR) mine. Not repaired

The already discussed (on tsushima.net i think) claim that K-21 may have destroyed with torpedo some motorboats at Vogen. Morzov don't put it into the list, however there are some weird and unclear events.
First of all that it's wrote that Lunin got some sort of confirmation by captured sailors of motorboat "Skrein" (but if i'm right the motorboats attacked by Lunin were named "Frei" (maybe the same one, mistakes of mispelling?) and other 3)
That said that at Vogen "some" motorboats were destroyed by a mysterious explosion. And that Germans didn't considered it worthy to be recorded (strange i think) because believed it was a floating mine. However i think that the German command should have recorded the event in some way, even if the motorboats were officially private civilian property.


Claims of K-22. (none of them is on Morozov list)
9/Dec/41 sunk German merchant Shteynbek (2184 GTR) mine
and sunk German merchant Veydingen (210 GTR)gunfire the same day
19/Jan/42 destroyed Norwegian merchant Mimona (1147 GRT) gunfire during an attack against an harbor
also destroyed German merchant Andromeda (658 GTR) gunfire during the same attack (not all sources)
and sunk Norwegian trawler/tug Vaaland (106 GRT) gunfire the same day during the attack
(on Mimona were lost 30.000 heavy coats for winter, destined to German soldiers on frontline, both her and Andromeda were aground before the attack and could not escape. )
15/Mar/42 sunk German merchant Niccolò Saffino (4974 GTR) mine (or French?? strange Italian name, that should be Niccolò Schiaffino, to be correct).
Of them, Morozov put on the list only the loss of Vaaland as result of K-22 bombing.

Claims of K-23
26/Nov/41 lightly damaged Norwegian trawler Start with gunfire
30/March/42 i've read in that article Kuznetsov that loss of submarine U-585 COULD be linked with mines laid by K-23.
He said that apart for the old claims of DDs Fury and Gremyashchyi (both attacked other submarines) he wasn't sure that the common said cause of drifting German mine from Bantos-A was the cause.
And that (apart for possible accident) two causes could have been mines laid by K-23 or by aircrafts DB-3 (less lickely that one because laid less mines, if i'm right)

Claim of M-171
29/Apr/42 destroyed German merchant Curityba (4969 GRT) torpedo.
This one is present in Morozov list, but i think (if i'm right) that should be added that with the merchant were also lost the auxiliary minesweepers M-5403 and M-5407 that were carried. Why Morozov did not mentioned them?
Maybe because they were after all considered as cargo of the merchant, or because there is some alternate description of their ultimate fate?


INTERESTING THINGS:
17/Feb/43 merchant Moltkefels (7863 GTR) damaged by mine of K-1 . Morozov put it into the list while it's put in doubt by others.

Submarine V-4
18/Oct/44 sunk an unknown taker of 3000 GRT with torpedo
This is very interesting, the only other entry (with the Turkish sailing ships in Black Sea) withut much details that Morozov add in the list. There are more details/clues of the event?
I've read if i'm right that during the German retreat, not all the losses of ships were recorded well, but it should be known after the war at least how many large merchants/tankers were and which one were lost around a date.

[igorr]

patrol ship V-5909 Coronel sunk 1/Feb/43. Not on Morozov list, i've all with multiple versions: as sunk by M-172 (denied by others too) , or sunk by mine laid by K-3 or MO-boats.

Last guess is correct. V.5909 sink by mine and MO is most probably laid it (30.11.42).

12/Sett/42 Norwegian merchant Tanahorn (366 GTR) hit and maybe damaged with unexploded torpedo by ShCh-422. (but not present on Morozov list)

I don't remember correctly this case. In all german docs TANAHORN listet as unsuccessfully attacked, but Gomm say it was hit and slightly damaged by dude torpedo. I don't know where he find this data. AFAIK in reality torpedo was found at beach, but maybe this was another case.
Btw you again has error with date... This was 1941.

8/Dec/43 damaged Norwegian merchant Stamsund (864 GRT) with unexploded torpedo
(sometimes said to be Valerie of 1016 GRT) by submarine S-55 (again another unex.torpedo case)

norwegian SS STAMSUND 9.12.43 was stranded in storm in Berlevaag. There is report from german flak, based on STAMSUND, that ship was hit by dude torpedo, but in docs of SeeKom Kirkenes it said, that torpedoes pass under SS VALOR (not Valerie).

17/May/43 sunk German tanker Eurostadt (1118 GRT) torpedo. Cargo of 1.280tons of fuel
and damaged German merchant Wartheland (3676 GRT) with unexploded torpedo during the same attack. by attack of S-56. This is a bit complicated. I've seen wrote clearly that the Wartheland was damaged by the hit (possibly lightly however) and that was wrote by Platonov (but you say that he's less reliable as source)
However here too Morozov doesn't put it into the list, but if there was some kind of light damage, this one (differently from Stamsund and Tanahorn, without a confirmation) could be considered.

MM didn't mentioned WARTELAND? Strange, this case is famous - it is only one when soviet sub hit two tragets in one attack. W. has hole but it was quickly sealed with cement box.

submarine S-14 on 16/Oct/44 may have sunk with torpedo an unnamed Norwegian fishing boat. (no mention on Morozov's list).

Becase it is not true. Only attack S-14 made that day was conductet agianst M-boot Rotte (M.321/302/322) and it was miss.

Of the three claims of submarine L-15, only this one is left without explain (to me):
9/May/44 claim to have sunk German merchant Odin (5806 GRT) with mine

ODIN sunk near Narvik where soviet subs never operated.

Claims with mines by L-22 (another pair of claims are now by on MO mines)
28/Dec/43 sunk German minesweeper R-64 (125 GTR) mine

Correct. Mines laid on 7.12.43, 16 men perished.

24/Oct/44 sunk German patrol ship NKi 05 / Jarnbarden (178 GRT) mine (often mistakenly described as victim of M-171, but it’s impossible (M-class could not lay mines)(could also have been sunk by a mine of L-20 but i've read it’s less probable)

I can said that nor L-20 nor L-22 not lay mines in area where NKI.05 (her name was btw SPERBER, not JARNBADEN) sunk. Who laid this mine still unknown maybe it was drifted from german minefields.

Both not on Morozov's list ... so possibly sunk on someone's else mine.

This too??? (i mean R 64) It is very strange. May be he not mentioned ships sunk by mines?

Claims of K-2 (both not on Morozov's list and possibly due something else)
12/Sept/41 damaged German merchant Lofoten (157 GTR) gunfire. It run aground

LOFOTEN was attacked by Scsh-422, unsuccesfully.

19/Nov/42 forced to run aground German merchant Akka (2646 GTR) mine. Not repaired

AKKA was repaired by 10/44. Who laid this mine, still unknown - soviet side didn't lay mines in this area in second half of 1942, germans think that it can't be their mine. Not K-2 sure.

The already discussed (on tsushima.net i think) claim that K-21 may have destroyed with torpedo some motorboats at Vogen. Morzov don't put it into the list,...

Sunk motorboat has name FROY. There was 6 m/bt at all. Baren, Havegga, Oeistein was damaged, Gyda and SKrein wasn't damaged, but from S. all crew was taken POW. Skrein herself was later found in sea and put in port.

Claims of K-22. (none of them is on Morozov list)
9/Dec/41 sunk German merchant Shteynbek (2184 GTR) mine

It is famous case. Steinbeck was sunk erraneously by U.134.

and sunk German merchant Veydingen (210 GTR)gunfire the same day

Veiding was norwegian motor scooner. Gunfire was in vain, this ship leave without damages.

19/Jan/42 destroyed Norwegian merchant Mimona (1147 GRT) gunfire during an attack against an harbor
also destroyed German merchant Andromeda (658 GTR) gunfire during the same attack (not all sources)

Looks like you repeat very old soviet fairy tales. Don't think i'll see them again... Both ships wrecked in same area and K-22 fired torpedoes against wrecks. Only coaster VAALAND was sunk in reality.

15/Mar/42 sunk German merchant Niccolò Saffino (4974 GTR) mine (or French?? strange Italian name, that should be Niccolò Schiaffino, to be correct).

This SS was former french used by germans without name's change. NICOLE SCHIAFFINO is correct name (http://www.plimsollshipdata.org/pdffile ... 0a0672.pdf)
Ship was stranded and lost without help of any mines.

Claims of K-23
26/Nov/41 lightly damaged Norwegian trawler Start with gunfire

START managed to escape without damage.

30/March/42 i've read in that article Kuznetsov that loss of submarine U-585 COULD be linked with mines laid by K-23.

He put this version in end of possibilities list. Sinking in straits near base must be mentioned by numerous posts in this area. There is no such mention AFAIK.

Claim of M-171
29/Apr/42 destroyed German merchant Curityba (4969 GRT) torpedo.
This one is present in Morozov list, but i think (if i'm right) that should be added that with the merchant were also lost the auxiliary minesweepers M-5403 and M-5407 that were carried. Why Morozov did not mentioned them?
Maybe because they were after all considered as cargo of the merchant, or because there is some alternate description of their ultimate fate?

I don't know. Looks like list from MM were not complete.

INTERESTING THINGS:
17/Feb/43 merchant Moltkefels (7863 GTR) damaged by mine of K-1 . Morozov put it into the list while it's put in doubt by others.

I don't know reasons for doubts. There is coordinates for explosion and minefield, then is simple to make 2+2.

Submarine V-4
18/Oct/44 sunk an unknown taker of 3000 GRT with torpedo
This is very interesting, the only other entry (with the Turkish sailing ships in Black Sea) withut much details that Morozov add in the list. There are more details/clues of the event?

Many people at sub see explosion and sinking. MM thinks that was some little ship (perhaps norwegian) not included in loss list.

I've read if i'm right that during the German retreat, not all the losses of ships were recorded well, but it should be known after the war at least how many large merchants/tankers were and which one were lost around a date.

If this was real sunk ship of course it was not tanker and not 3000 t.
Btw You must know that all soviet claims measured in displacement (i.e. tonns) and not grt or brt.

[Juha Tompuri]

The already discussed (on tsushima.net i think) claim that K-21 may have destroyed with torpedo some motorboats at Vogen. Morzov don't put it into the list,...

Sunk motorboat has name FROY. There was 6 m/bt at all. Baren, Havegga, Oeistein was damaged, Gyda and SKrein wasn't damaged, but from S. all crew was taken POW. Skrein herself was later found in sea and put in port.

I think lupodimare89 ment this case:

Maneuvering the k-21 "torpedo hit on the base of light forces Vogen, February 20, 1943

http://militera.lib.ru/h/sergeev_km/ill.html

Approaching the entrance to the base, we found a large number of boats and mother ships closely stood at the pier. Torpedo tubes were prepared for a long time and team-Lunin four torpedo went into the thick of the ships. Since the shooting came, they say, point blank, after 15 seconds a loud explosion, and after 5 minutes the Germans lost their heads, thinking that it is our air raid, opened indiscriminate anti-aircraft fire.

http://militera.lib.ru/h/sergeev_km/09.html

K-21... ... feuert am 20.2. sechs Torpedos auf einen Küstensicherungs-verband in die Bogenbucht.

http://www.wlb-stuttgart.de/seekrieg/43-02.htm

Regards, Juha

[lupodimare89]

Again thank you.

This was the list for Artic done by Morozov. I can say that it was done as further additions of data after a request done by another user for soviet ships sunk by german subs. And he wrote it in 2009, with only a pair of small addenda and discussion in 2012 for claims on Baltic (one new victory with torpedo each ones to L-3 and L-21)


СФ

норв. ТР Оттар Ярл 1459 + 12.9.1941 70.57 с.ш. 29.00 в.д. торп. Щ-422
норв. ТР Вестеролен 682 + 17.10.1941 70.21 с.ш. 22.32 в.д. торп. Щ-402
герм. ТЩ М-22 = 5.11.1941 вход в Бек-фьорд мина К-23
герм. ТР Флоттбек 1930 + 8.11.1941 70.56 с.ш. 25.43 в.д. мина К-1
норв. ТР Бессхейм 1774 + 21.11.1941 70.39 с.ш. 23.38 в.д. мина К-21
норв. м/б Альфар 15 + 11.12.1941 71.13,2 с.ш. 23.36,2 в.д. арт. К-22
норв. м/б Боргар 15 + 11.12.1941 71.13,2 с.ш. 23.36,2 в.д. арт. К-22
герм. БО Uj 1708 + 3.12.1941 70.53,9 с.ш. 23.46,5 в.д. арт. К-3
норв. ТР Конг Ринг 1994 + 26.12.1941 69.55 с.ш. 20.04 в.д. мина К-1
герм. ТР Эмсхёрн 4301 + 21.12.1941 70.04,5 с.ш. 30.30,2 в.д. торп. М-174
норв. м/б Ингё 15 + 21.1.1942 71.09 с.ш. 24.35 в.д. арт. К-21
норв. ТР Вааланд 106 + 19.1.1942 70.50 с.ш. 29.20 в.д. арт. К-22
норв. ТР Серё 506 + 19.1.1942 Сверхольтклуббен арт. К-23
норв. ТР Ингё 327 + 30.1.1942 71.06 с.ш. 25.00 в.д. мина К-3
герм. ТР Тюркхайм 1904 + 14.1.1942 70.33 с.ш. 30.50 в.д. торп. С-102
норв. м/б Бьорг 10 + 26.1.1942 71.06,0 с.ш. 28.31,5 в.д. арт. Щ-422
герм. ТР Консул Шульте 2975 + 5.2.1942 Порсангер-фьорд торп. Щ-421
герм. СКР Вандале + 27.2.1942 71.05,8 с.ш. 26.56,5 в.д. торп. Щ-402
герм. ТР Курцзее 754 + 8.4.1942 70.06,3 с.ш. 20.59 в.д. мина К-1
герм. ТР Куритиба 4969 + 29.4.1942 70.05,1 с.ш. 30.31,5 в.д. торп. М-171
герм. ТР Бланкенезе 3236 + 22.4.1942 70.32 с.ш. 30.47 в.д. торп. М-173
герм. ТР Михаэль 2793 + 1.4.1942 70.45 с.ш. 30.10 в.д. торп. Щ-404
норв. ТР Штенсаас 1359 + 23.4.1942 71.04 с.ш. 28.20 в.д. торп. Щ-401
герм. ТР Асунсьон 4626 + 23.5.1942 70.17 с.ш. 21.21 в.д. мина К-1
герм. БО Uj 1110 + 9.7.1942 70.39 с.ш. 23.38 в.д. мина К-21
герм. ТР Роберт Борнхофен 6643 + 12.9.1942 70.52,6 с.ш. 25.58 в.д. мина К-1
герм. СКР NM 01 + 6.12.1942 70.57,6 с.ш. 25.59,8 в.д. мина К-1
герм. СКР NM 21 + 6.12.1942 70.57,6 с.ш. 25.59,8 в.д. мина К-1
герм. ТР Муанса 5472 + 1.1.1943 70.49,6 с.ш. 29.28 в.д. торп. Л-20
герм. ТР Илона Симмерс 3245 = 29.1.1943 70.31,6 с.ш. 30.55,5 в.д. торп. М-171
герм. ТР Мольткефельс 7863 = 17.2.1943 69.58 с.ш. 21.03 в.д. мина К-1
герм. ТР Фёхенхайм 8116 = не введен 12.2.1943 у м. Сейбунес торп. К-3
герм. БО Uj 1108 + 5.2.1943 у м. Кьельнес торп. К-3
герм. ТР Отмаршен 7077 + 1.2.1943 71.07,8 с.ш. 27.23,1 в.д. торп. Л-20
герм. СКР V 6115 + 1.2.1943 70.42 с.ш. 30.15 в.д. торп. М-172
герм. ТР Йоханисбергер 4467 + 16.3.1943 69.58, 5 с.ш. 30.03 в.д. торп. М-122
герм. ТР Аякс 2297 + 29.3.1943 70.49 с.ш. 29.30 в.д. торп. С-101
норв. м/б Хавегга 15 = 12.4.1943 69.25,8 с.ш. 15.47 в.д. арт. К-21
норв. м/б Барен 15 = 12.4.1943 69.25,8 с.ш. 15.47 в.д. арт. К-21
норв. м/б Эйштейн 15 = 12.4.1943 69.25,8 с.ш. 15.47 в.д. арт. К-21
норв. м/б Фрёй 40 + 12.4.1943 69.25,8 с.ш. 15.47 в.д. арт. К-21
герм. ТР Штурцзее 708 + 29.4.1943 Нордкин торп. С-55
герм. ТН Ойроштадт 1118 + 17.5.1943 70.45 с.ш. 29.27 в.д. торп. С-56
герм. ГС Бирка 1000 + 1.6.1943 70.20,2 с.ш. 21.55 в.д. мина Л-22
герм. СКР NKi 09 + 19.7.1943 Гамвик торп. С-56
герм. ТЩ М 346 + 17.7.1943 71.07 с.ш. 28.22 в.д. торп. С-56
герм. ПЛ U 639 + 28.8.1943 76.49 с.ш. 69.40 в.д. торп. С-101
герм. ТР Рюдесхаймер 2036 = 1.9.1943 Сюльте-фьорд торп. Л-22
герм. БО Uj 1217 + 11.9.1943 70.38 с.ш. 30.26 в.д. торп. М-107
герм. БО Uj 1202 + 3.9.1943 70.47 с.ш. 29.35 в.д. торп. С-51
герм. ТР Аммерланд 5381 + 12.10.1943 70.59 с.ш. 26.26 в.д. торп. С-55
герм. ТР Хайнрих Шульте 5056 + 28.1.1944 71.07,8 с.ш. 28.17 в.д. торп. С-56
герм. БО Uj 1209 + 20.6.1944 71.01 с.ш. 28.38 в.д. торп. С-104
герм. СКР V 6112 + 19.8.1944 70.28,8 с.ш. 30.57,5 в.д. торп. М-201
герм. ТР Дессау 5933 = 24.8.1944 Омганг торп. С-15
??? ТН б/н 3000 + 18.10.1944 71.08,7 с.ш. 27.44,5 в.д. торп. В-4
герм. БО Uj 1219 + 20.10.1944 71.06 с.ш. 27.47 в.д. торп. В-4
герм. БО Uj 1220 + 12.10.1944 71.10 с.ш. 27.51 в.д. торп. В-2
герм. ТР Лумме 1730 + 12.10.1944 70.55,5 с.ш. 29.07 в.д. торп. С-104

MM didn't mentioned WARTELAND? Strange, this case is famous - it is only one when soviet sub hit two tragets in one attack. W. has hole but it was quickly sealed with cement box.

About this i was thinking that's because the main topic reguarded the successful attack/results i think he included ships sunks/lost and the damaged one, and excluded light damages due dud hits (but it's only a guess).

Claims with mines by L-22 (another pair of claims are now by on MO mines)
28/Dec/43 sunk German minesweeper R-64 (125 GTR) mine
Correct. Mines laid on 7.12.43, 16 men perished.
Both not on Morozov's list ... so possibly sunk on someone's else mine.
This too??? (i mean R 64) It is very strange. May be he not mentioned ships sunk by mines?

He could have find something else about the fate of this small minesweeper, but it's also possible that he missed to add it. He later told in the discussion of 2 new adds (never heard before) of L-3 and L-21 with one more sinking due torpedo attack to each one. He updated the list with the L-21 (on a LAT barge) but did not updated for L-3 (it was a MFP) possibly because forgot to it there.

[lupodimare89]

Um.... another missing one...
4/Oct/42 sunk German submarine-chaser UJ-1214/Rau V (354 BRT) mine by submarine L-15.
It should have been a floating mine, however i don't see it on this Morozov list but he speak of it as sunk by soviet sub. here. http://wap.brummel.borda.ru/?1-14-0-00000003-000-160-0
(together the R-64)

[igorr]

It is old data (2007). I think now he thinks that it was not L-15's mine. This minefield was discovered by germans 10 days after laying and sweeped many times. In day when 1214 sinks, germans see 11 drifted mines (german ones). Most probable one of them hit UJ

[lupodimare89]

Ok, Morozov replied there
http://tsushima.su/forums/viewtopic.php?id=1357&p=4
He confirmed that the WARTELAND was hit and lightly damaged (with flood) but had not put on the list because was light.

For both UJ-1214 and R-64 he now say that for the first COULD be by L-15, but more probably by German drifting.
Same for R-64 (drifting mine)

Both cases i think that's why he decided to not consider them official

On other mysterious things he said:
"I can't find any German documents with this losses - I heared about them only in Gomm's book."
About losses of two small auxiliary minesweepers carried inside merchant Curityba

Then about the new added victory for L-4 (a small motorboat, i've made confusion about identity of target reading in russian) at my question if this should be counted or not as a victory, he said
"I think yes, but I want to confirm my opinion with somebody from German historian"
And this is why he did not put it into the list, i think..

About the lists that were not done in that topic (Winter War and vs Japanese) he said:
Bolheim, Reinbeck, Kassari, Wilpas, Fenris sunk, finnish M/T Sigrid damaged as list of victories +
SS Oliva (5/12/1939 Sch-323) and SS Helga Böge (12/12/1939 Sch-322) these two other ships damaged
(i had wrote Helga Böge by Sch-322 and Gilhausen by S-3, but this last one was not confirmed by his reply).

About Aura-II he confirms the Finnish thesis (self-destruction by depth charge explosion)

About Japaneses he wrote:
Ogosawara-Maru sunk by L-12, aux. gunboat Shinko-Maru No2 damaged and S/S Taito-Maru sunk by L-19.
Then he added that Shink Maru " She took a torpedo hit and sunk on the shallows after she reach the base (Rumoi)."
so the damage was quite heavy, i'm wondering if it can be considered as a full victory for the L-19 (even if it's not much fair for the japanese, i mean... a ship damaged and never repaired can be considered a full lost (because not operative after the hit), but the Soviet-Japan war so short that every kind of damaged unit could be considered as "lost for all the duration of hostility).
Reguardless, i'm curious about this attack.

Then he also added the victory of ShCh-126 on the motorboat
"Yes, confirmed. Very small success shortly before the armistice."

While he said to have never heard that
"i've some details about the Sch-102 in 1938 meeting and seizing a Japanese ship believed to be a trawler but with mines inside?"
Igor, you've heard of this?

[igorr]

You may not repost here his answers, i/m already see them at Tsishima.
Don't know anything about subs from Pacific AT ALL, sorry.

[Juha Tompuri]

Bolheim, Reinbeck, Kassari, Wilpas, Fenris sunk, finnish M/T Sigrid damaged as list of victories

Actually Fenris, travelling from a Swedish port to another (nor Kassari for similar reasons), can hardly be considered as a victory.
Also AFAIK Sigrid was not damaged.

Regards, Juha

[lupodimare89]

Ok, however he further replied there...
I think to have that's all is there at last update.

Code: Select all

Actually Fenris, travelling from a Swedish port to another (nor Kassari for similar reasons), can hardly be considered as a victory.
Also AFAIK Sigrid was not damaged.

Well... they're still sinking into the submarines's career.
For Sigrid, i've asked to Morozov..

[Juha Tompuri]

Well... they're still sinking into the submarines's career.

Sinkings yes, but of neutral vessels with nothing to do with Finland at that moment.

For Sigrid, i've asked to Morozov..

Anyway, I'm not 100% sure about the case, have to check.

Regards, Juha

[lupodimare89]

(i was remembering something similar, that a pair were not involved in shipping with Finland, but not which ones.)

However, i think to sort-of consider closed the important topic of soviet submarines successes (mainly because Morozov already provided that useful list) and further questions are not needed..

Igor, you said that you focus on Artic warfare right? And you posted lots of data here
http://tsushima.su/forums/viewtopic.php?id=5644

If you're fine i will can make a list of questions reguarding the soviet ASW, starting from Artic and then giving a look at the rest. I'm particularly interested even in damages (and not only sinking) expecially considering that (if i'm right) a damaged submarine that's forced to stop its patrol, is prevented for further attacks that may have been resulted in losses.
I'm currently translating it and i'm at mid 1942. When i've done i will make a list of questions.