Soviet Naval Battles

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Juha Tompuri
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Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)

Post by Juha Tompuri » 13 Mar 2013 21:25

lupodimare89 wrote:Hello, i'm would like to understand better all the large, and minor naval battles and skirmish fought by Soviet naval forces during the war. I'm expecially interested about the damages inflicted by Soviet units with gunfire and machinegun on Axis warships, boats and crafts.
I know that some analysts claim that the Soviet Navy never managed to sunk a target with gunfire and even damaging it. But this is surely WRONG, and built on the pre-89 book of Jurg Meinster that it's clearly filled with mistakes and errors. (and a not so nice anti-soviet feeling .... when you write a book about military you should keep apart from political feeling and focus on FACTS).

Now Here there is a list of 40 clashes i would like to discover more:

(sorry if there are grammar mistakes, i'm from Italy, and there may be some little mistakes of typing here and there

FIRST PART - BALTIC SEA
There already exists a thread about
Vaeltaja wrote: valid listing of losses in the Gulf of Finland on the Russian/Soviet side.
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 9&t=184467

Regards, Juha
Last edited by Juha Tompuri on 14 Mar 2013 08:10, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: adding info

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Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)

Post by lupodimare89 » 13 Mar 2013 22:34

Thank you Juha : )
All the Finnish sources and threads with discussion are very comprehensive and full of details.
There already exists a thread about
Oh ok ^^ but i had already a full list of personal questions (i've thought about searching and making questions in every topic, but there are often there other discussions.. was thinking to open a single personal topic with specific and detailed question and i thank you all the ones replied here ^^

As i said, expecially you all Finnish users (there are lots of you on this forum! XD) very exhaustive and detailed,

I hope to find similar answers also for my (long list) of questions about Black Sea and Artic Sea involving Soviet actions

On detail, i find very interesting the article of Suho. But was trying still to find some small detail (as the damage of the hospital-ferry, having no mention about what caused it in none source or link i've seen.)

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Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)

Post by Juha Tompuri » 16 Mar 2013 20:31

lupodimare89 wrote:About the battle of Someri, this is the list of units i've tried to do...
...Damaged...
...MO-306, coastal artillery (reported damaged beoyond repair...
I very much agree:
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Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)

Post by lupodimare89 » 16 Mar 2013 20:48

Oh ... well.. that's worth a dozen of official documents! ^^

I should check better, because i'm sure that the main russian lists (the modern ones) list 7 units lost, excluding the MO-306, that's described as damaged beyond repair. But i see from this photo that was took at Someri so the unit remained there.

There are only two possibilities, or that the modern russian lists should add this unit (bringing the total count to 8 sunk/destroyed in battle ... leaving only 1 unit "damaged beyond repair", that's i'm still searching for the identity) or... (and this could be possible too) that there is a mistake in photo description and it's show the "MO-306" destroyed at Bengtskar. (but i think that the pennant number should have been changed into "PK-238" )

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Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)

Post by igorr » 19 Mar 2013 04:08

MO-306 was provisional name for MO-238. This cutter was damaged by aircrafts and finished by finnish gunboats according soviet loss list.
About steamer AUVO on 30.11.39: soviet official Chronicle gives name of DD as GROSYASCHIY. He acted togheter with MO-111. AUVO leaved Tallinn on morning 30.11.39, was intercepted on 12.20 near Aegna island and towed to Paldiski.

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Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)

Post by igorr » 19 Mar 2013 04:11

lupodimare89 wrote: EDIT. I've seen in that fourm (look at bottom) http://tsushima.su/forums/viewtopic.php?id=5050&p=2 a mention for 1942, but i've read that R-169 was lost in 1941.

Possibly the user seabear wrote wrong 1942 and all happened in 1941?
This is misunderstanding. Seabear gives extraction from newspaper, published in 1942, but actions mentioned dated 1941.
Btw. user with nickname Botik Petra Velikogo = Miroslav Morozov.

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Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)

Post by igorr » 19 Mar 2013 05:03

lupodimare89 wrote: 2) 27 June 1941 I've read different reports about the fate of motor torpedo boats S-43 and S-106. Linked in some way with the attack of the Storozhevoyi (that however should have happened some days before), i've read that the destroyer Stoikyi had intercepted the two motor torpedo boats, and could have sunk them with gunfire OR have fired until the sail on mines (and were sunk by mines). There is some report of soviet destroyers on mission close the sinking location of the MTBs?
There was many S-boote in Baltic that time and they actioned in different groups. S.43 and 106 belonged to 5 S-Flottila, and boats attacked STOROZHEVOJ - to 3 S-Flotilla. Last group hasn't any losses. 5 S-Fl acted more to north and screened minelaying from BRUMMER west of Odensholm. S.43 mined two times 01.27 and 01.29, and S.106 in 01.44. 19 men was lost and 9 wounded.

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Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)

Post by igorr » 19 Mar 2013 09:54

lupodimare89 wrote: 3) Who damaged/captured the soviet MTB TK-163?I've read of German MTBs
From 26.5.40 this boat was TKA Nr.47. It was captured by 3 S-Fl.
lupodimare89 wrote:4) 6 July 1941 Battle of Kolka. Of course the Soviet didn't destroy an "auxiliary cruiser" as claimed. But i've read online that the MRS-11 could have been damaged and that the M-23 was almost surely hit (i've read she could not communicate because her equipment was damaged in battle). Apart from German books that deny it, there is some archive/source that could mention moderate or light damages on the two ships?
M.23 was sent to reinforce conwoy escort ca. 1 hour before battle. Only MRS.11 and M.31 participated. Both ships has no damage.
lupodimare89 wrote:6) 18 July 1941 Soviet MTB TK-123 sunk.Who sunk her?
German aircrafts.
lupodimare89 wrote: 8) 22 July 1941 who sunk the MTB TK-71 ad a "little tug"? it was with gunfire?
3 S-Flotilla. Little tug was LAICHPLESIS, icebreaking tug.
lupodimare89 wrote: 10) 1 August 1941 Apart for the unrealistic claim of destroyer Silnyi to have sunk an enemy "torpedo boat". She may have possibly fough some unit? I've also read about an hard clash of crafts: with TK-74 that sunk RA-55, TK-84 sunk RA-53 and the soviet TK-122 sunk by unknown RA
Never heard about SILNYI's claim. That day soviet claimed 1 DD LEBERECHT MAAS type and one T-boat JAGUAR type sunk by TKA - 4 boats from Osel attacked enemy convoy. TKA-103 was lightly damaged in that clash. In reality it was pinasse from MRS.12, sweeping road in Riga gulf. "DD" and "TB" was minesweepers M.3/4/8/7/20 from 1 MS-Fl, that covered little sweepers. Germans has no damage or losses from all attack - by aircrafts, TKA and destroyers ARTEM and ENGELS. Two more DD, STATNYI and SUROVYI can't locate enemy. Additionally soviets claimed 1 transport and 3 DD damaged by mines.
lupodimare89 wrote: 11) night of 12 August 1941 on Lake Peipus was fought a battle between Soviet gunboats and German patrols. No damage inflicted on both said. There are other data? (Number of units involved ecc.)
Gunboat EMBACH and two KM-cutters landed scout group. On way back one cutter meet german watch cutter and sunk them (soviet claim). I have no idea who was from other side and was this cutter sunk or not.
lupodimare89 wrote: 12) 21 August 1941 Soviet sources are pretty much insistent that destroyers Artem and Surovyi attacked, shelled and heavily damaged (but not sunk) two armed merchants and received also fire from them. Apart for explicit denial, there are some archive's data that mentions merchant units damaged in that date? Maybe due air attack.
Both soviet DD reported 2 transports, 1 motor schooner and 6 cutters, from which both TR was set to fire, schooner beached, two cutters sunk. In reality this was 4th wave of 10. Fahrenbatallion o nher way in Riga gulf. Fahren was beachen, no human casualties. I don't know names fro Fahren or theirs tactical numbers.
lupodimare89 wrote: 15) 27 August 1941 Soviet MTBs TK-94 (at the time named TK-57) and others 4 units claim to have fought and heavily damaged "two tugs", some other data?
From soviet side there was 2 trasports in Irben strait. 4 TKA searched them, but find only 2 schooners and 2 tugs near Kolkasrags. 1"tug" escaped, second beached. In reality it was two german KuMo - ADELE and DIETE KORNER. Both beached without human losses.
lupodimare89 wrote: 15) 2 September 1944 Soviet MTB TK-94 claim to have attacked two "escorts" , one later "finished" by TK-67 and TK-154. Some data?
This was M.3 and M.20, no damage.
lupodimare89 wrote: 16) 27 September 1944 Light cruiser Emden and Leipzig repulsed an attack of MTB, and TK-83 was sunk. Still soviets claim that Leipzig was hit and was later put on repair until June 1942. ... Are avaible detailed data about the kind of repairs done by on Leipzig?
I can't understand this statments abouts "hiding damage" or "absence of clear data" tonight, when anyone can buy and read LEIPZIG's KTB in BA/MA or NARA. There absolutely NO trace of any damage from TKA or soviet guns. And there is no any evidence, that germans "hide" damages in own top secrets documents. Hide from whom, from themselves?
lupodimare89 wrote: 21) Attack on Krasnoye Znamya by Syoksy, Vinha and Vihuri. There was a list of Soviet causalities?
64 men lost.
lupodimare89 wrote: 27) 14 May 1944 Soviet MO-122 sunk by German MTBs. Other data?
6 S-Fl, germans has 2 wounded.
lupodimare89 wrote: 29) 30 May 1944 Soviet MTB TK-94 and others claim to have attacked eney "ship" and have sunk one of them.
This was watch group of 4 minesweepers with M.37 in head. They suffered 1 man seriously wounded.
lupodimare89 wrote: 32) 30 June 1944. Details about the sinking of TK-43, TK-63 and TK-161 vs German forces. Who sunk them? Total causalities? Possible light damages on German crafts?
There was 2 sub-clashes. In one fought german 3 MS-Fl and finnish MTB, in second only MS-Boote. In first one TKA sunk, 4 men taken prisoner, in second 2 TKA sunk. Germans has no human losses, only veri little damage. From soviet point of view this was already 1/07/44.
lupodimare89 wrote: 33) 8 July 1944 Soviet Mtb TK-31 sunk by Finnish gunboat Uusimaa. Further details?
No such loss from soviet side.
lupodimare89 wrote: 34) 15 July 1944. German torpedo boats T-8, T-10, T-30 claimed to have sunk a Soviet minesweeper. Actually Tszcz-218 was damaged but no sunk. Details about human losses? Possible light/splinter damage on Germans?
Battle was on 16 July to soviets p.o.view. Participated TUCHA, minesweepers Nrs. 211 and 217 and MO-121. Last was hit, suffered casualty of 7 wounded and was towed to Lavensaari. From german side only boiler failure reported.
lupodimare89 wrote: 35) 17 August 1944 while German torpedo boats T-30 and T-32 were sunk by mines, i've read of T-22 that COULD have been torpedoed by Soviet MTBs.
Both sink on mines soviets saved some people from lifeboats.
lupodimare89 wrote: 36) 18 November 1944 Germans reported an hard fight of their MTBs vs soviet gunboats and MTB, with S-68 and S-116 damaged and no soviet crafts sunk or damaged. Damages on German MTBs could beinflicted by aircraft, but also by soviet crafts considering it was probably a close engagement. Further details?
TKA Nr. 801 was damaged in clash with enemy ships. S-68 has one shot from soviet ships. Other damage made by La-5 from 3 GIAP.

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Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)

Post by lupodimare89 » 19 Mar 2013 11:02

MO-306 was provisional name for MO-238. This cutter was damaged by aircrafts and finished by finnish gunboats according soviet loss list.
Ok but.. this is NOT the "MO-306" lost on 22/June/1941 due attack of German MTB S-44, right?
It's quiet a mess with all the changes of names - . -

So the total count of units lost at Someri reach the number 8 (and not 7, as wrote in some russian sources)
About steamer AUVO on 30.11.39: soviet official Chronicle gives name of DD as GROSYASCHIY. He acted togheter with MO-111. AUVO leaved Tallinn on morning 30.11.39, was intercepted on 12.20 near Aegna island and towed to Paldiski.
Good ^^ there is not some data related to Laavensaari operations? Who could have sunk that finnish motorboat?
There was many S-boote in Baltic that time and they actioned in different groups. S.43 and 106 belonged to 5 S-Flottila, and boats attacked STOROZHEVOJ - to 3 S-Flotilla. Last group hasn't any losses. 5 S-Fl acted more to north and screened minelaying from BRUMMER west of Odensholm. S.43 mined two times 01.27 and 01.29, and S.106 in 01.44. 19 men was lost and 9 wounded.
Oh ok... i've read yesterday that STOIKYI claimed to have been attacked the day 27, and also 26 and 29 (in this last two times fired against MTBs)
M.23 was sent to reinforce conwoy escort ca. 1 hour before battle. Only MRS.11 and M.31 participated. Both ships has no damage.
I've read this too.. but again with multiple sources saying different things : /
There was a book online with a list of German naval battles (can't remember the author, will find it again) that included the M-23, and somewhere else i've read that got a splinter on the radio (sort of sure of this detail, but will have to check it better, maybe it was related at later operations) while the MRS-11 was "straddled" by Soviet fire. And another source (czech i think) said that suffered damages.

( ...)
(i've to go now. will keep reading and commenting later)

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Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)

Post by Vaeltaja » 19 Mar 2013 16:43

igorr wrote:
lupodimare89 wrote: 33) 8 July 1944 Soviet Mtb TK-31 sunk by Finnish gunboat Uusimaa. Further details?
No such loss from soviet side.
Can't really see such claim from the Finnish side either. No combat activity was reported on that day.

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Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)

Post by lupodimare89 » 19 Mar 2013 18:02

Can't really see such claim from the Finnish side either. No combat activity was reported on that day.
I think it was an error, 1944 for 1942 (8/July/42, TK-31 was one of the unit lost during Someri battle).

Now, keeping on with the previous replies (thank you igorr for your amazing replies ^^)

lupodimare89 wrote:6) 18 July 1941 Soviet MTB TK-123 sunk.Who sunk her?
German aircrafts.
Sure? I've read in some sources it was sunk my escorts of minesweeper. But maybe german sources mixed the loss (due aircraft) with a german claim of sinking by gunfire.
lupodimare89 wrote: 8) 22 July 1941 who sunk the MTB TK-71 ad a "little tug"? it was with gunfire?
3 S-Flotilla. Little tug was LAICHPLESIS, icebreaking tug.
Thanks ^^ But also here we've the problem of "twins"/renamed units.. with another "TK-71" lost at Someri v.v
lupodimare89 wrote: 10) 1 August 1941 Apart for the unrealistic claim of destroyer Silnyi to have sunk an enemy "torpedo boat". She may have possibly fough some unit? I've also read about an hard clash of crafts: with TK-74 that sunk RA-55, TK-84 sunk RA-53 and the soviet TK-122 sunk by unknown RA
Never heard about SILNYI's claim. That day soviet claimed 1 DD LEBERECHT MAAS type and one T-boat JAGUAR type sunk by TKA - 4 boats from Osel attacked enemy convoy. TKA-103 was lightly damaged in that clash. In reality it was pinasse from MRS.12, sweeping road in Riga gulf. "DD" and "TB" was minesweepers M.3/4/8/7/20 from 1 MS-Fl, that covered little sweepers. Germans has no damage or losses from all attack - by aircrafts, TKA and destroyers ARTEM and ENGELS. Two more DD, STATNYI and SUROVYI can't locate enemy. Additionally soviets claimed 1 transport and 3 DD damaged by mines.
Will check again about Silnyi activity, however i'm pretty sure about a possible chas of smaller crafts. I've read also that the German RA-53 and RA-55 were lost in that month. Navypeadia list them as lost in "8/1941" but give no causes. If i'm right the site sovynavy-ww2 mentioned them too.
Maybe there was another clash, or maybe they were lost due something else.
lupodimare89 wrote: 11) night of 12 August 1941 on Lake Peipus was fought a battle between Soviet gunboats and German patrols. No damage inflicted on both said. There are other data? (Number of units involved ecc.)
Gunboat EMBACH and two KM-cutters landed scout group. On way back one cutter meet german watch cutter and sunk them (soviet claim). I have no idea who was from other side and was this cutter sunk or not.
Interesting! To have some soviet data at least ^^ If i'm right Meister wrote it was an inconclusive engagement, but i've read he's not exactly accurate as author.
lupodimare89 wrote: 12) 21 August 1941 Soviet sources are pretty much insistent that destroyers Artem and Surovyi attacked, shelled and heavily damaged (but not sunk) two armed merchants and received also fire from them. Apart for explicit denial, there are some archive's data that mentions merchant units damaged in that date? Maybe due air attack.
Both soviet DD reported 2 transports, 1 motor schooner and 6 cutters, from which both TR was set to fire, schooner beached, two cutters sunk. In reality this was 4th wave of 10. Fahrenbatallion o nher way in Riga gulf. Fahren was beachen, no human casualties. I don't know names fro Fahren or theirs tactical numbers.
About this i can add something ^^ Reading the linked russian forum it came out there were the ships Maggie, Olga, six ferries and two tugboats, + the escort gunboat Ost (i think SAT-1 Ost). The only one damaged should have been the Ost, (even if i think to have read that the lead merchant was straddled by close hits, i think the Maggie), and the German report said it had causalities, 1 kia (drowned) and 3 wia (the kia was during the evacuation of the ship after it run aground)
I can't understand this statments abouts "hiding damage" or "absence of clear data" tonight, when anyone can buy and read LEIPZIG's KTB in BA/MA or NARA. There absolutely NO trace of any damage from TKA or soviet guns. And there is no any evidence, that germans "hide" damages in own top secrets documents. Hide from whom, from themselves?
I'm sorry it's that i've almost no access to russian, german and almost all the english books v.v
And my doubts are more because i know of the naval war in mediterranean sea between Italy and GB. I've a number of interesting books of different authors and they often quote each others, taking details or data from the official report of the navy of the time rather then making a research on archives (and archives often said other things). I've an amazing book that after every engagement show the official reports of both British, English and German navy too sometimes that are absolutely filled with overclaim, omission of own damages and often engaged in "reports-battles" ...they're absolutely amusing to read because they're compared. Just speaking of my country (Italy) after Mussolini was freed he executed a pair of admirals accusing them to have hide things from him (it was partially true, and they were used as scapegoat).
But there are things concerning your country too.
Until 2006 our Navy, was still keeping to say officially that italian MAS in Black Sea "Sunk the Soviet cruiser Krasnyi Krym" it was only after people online as us that messaged to them, that they changed the details about the gold medal awarded for the action (and put as motivation the "damage of cruiser Molotov", and that one too was more probably caused by German aircrafts). (or still today it's ever reported about a number of soviet ships sunk in Ladoga (including a Bira-class gunboat) and Black Sea ... all overclaim for what i've read, but this are things wrote today on books :/
15) 27 August 1941 Soviet MTBs TK-94 (at the time named TK-57) and others 4 units claim to have fought and heavily damaged "two tugs", some other data?
From soviet side there was 2 trasports in Irben strait. 4 TKA searched them, but find only 2 schooners and 2 tugs near Kolkasrags. 1"tug" escaped, second beached. In reality it was two german KuMo - ADELE and DIETE KORNER. Both beached without human losses.
What means "KuMo" ?
Trawlers?
15) 2 September 1944 Soviet MTB TK-94 claim to have attacked two "escorts" , one later "finished" by TK-67 and TK-154. Some data?
This was M.3 and M.20, no damage.
Just found of this one too... i've read that M-3 and M-20 claimed to have sunk an attacker, but both reported to have suffered some light (possibly splinter i think) damages.

lupodimare89 wrote: 27) 14 May 1944 Soviet MO-122 sunk by German MTBs. Other data?
6 S-Fl, germans has 2 wounded.
Identity of German boat possibly damaged?
lupodimare89 wrote: 29) 30 May 1944 Soviet MTB TK-94 and others claim to have attacked eney "ship" and have sunk one of them.
This was watch group of 4 minesweepers with M.37 in head. They suffered 1 man seriously wounded.
Just found that Germans claimed that 6 minesweepers engaged the soviet (5 MTBs) and claimed to have sunk one.
No data about the German ship hit? (maybe the M-37, if the wounded was on her).
32) 30 June 1944. Details about the sinking of TK-43, TK-63 and TK-161 vs German forces. Who sunk them? Total causalities? Possible light damages on German crafts?
There was 2 sub-clashes. In one fought german 3 MS-Fl and finnish MTB, in second only MS-Boote. In first one TKA sunk, 4 men taken prisoner, in second 2 TKA sunk. Germans has no human losses, only veri little damage. From soviet point of view this was already 1/07/44.
You've other details? (full list of German units, and who received the light damages)



I've found yesterday another site with long text with (it seemed to me) Soviet-sided account of a number of clashes of MO crafts in 1943. I will make a shorter list for them because some engagements seems very interesting and could match with some activity of German units.

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Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)

Post by igorr » 20 Mar 2013 04:42

lupodimare89 wrote:
MO-306 was provisional name for MO-238. This cutter was damaged by aircrafts and finished by finnish gunboats according soviet loss list.
Ok but.. this is NOT the "MO-306" lost on 22/June/1941 due attack of German MTB S-44, right?
It's quiet a mess with all the changes of names - . -
All is very messed up with soviet small unit such TKA, MO and so on. There was many renaming and not rarely renaming was made AFTER boat actually sunk!
MO-306 is hard case. I mess them up yesterday. What i wrote is fate of cutter sunk 26/7/41 near Bengtskjar.
What we look is real MO-306, sunk 9/7/42 near Someri by artillery. No surprise, this boat has provisional name MO-510 when sunk!!
Noone "Moschka" (nickname for MO-cutters) was sunk 22/6/41.

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Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)

Post by igorr » 20 Mar 2013 05:47

lupodimare89 wrote:
About steamer AUVO on 30.11.39: soviet official Chronicle gives name of DD as GROSYASCHIY. He acted togheter with MO-111. AUVO leaved Tallinn on morning 30.11.39, was intercepted on 12.20 near Aegna island and towed to Paldiski.
Good ^^ there is not some data related to Laavensaari operations? Who could have sunk that finnish motorboat?
It is stated, that GORDYI in 12.25 near Someri sunk cutter "V-14".
I've read this too.. but again with multiple sources saying different things : /
There was a book online with a list of German naval battles (can't remember the author, will find it again) that included the M-23, and somewhere else i've read that got a splinter on the radio (sort of sure of this detail, but will have to check it better, maybe it was related at later operations) while the MRS-11 was "straddled" by Soviet fire. And another source (czech i think) said that suffered damages.
Put all this "sources" in litter basket. I've give you data from MRS.11's KTB, also from FdM Ostsee and BdK's KTB.

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Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)

Post by igorr » 20 Mar 2013 07:37

lupodimare89 wrote:
18 July 1941 Soviet MTB TK-123 sunk.Who sunk her?
German aircrafts.
Sure? I've read in some sources it was sunk my escorts of minesweeper. But maybe german sources mixed the loss (due aircraft) with a german claim of sinking by gunfire.
Germans very often claim to hit soviet TKA and MO in clashes, but in reality damages were rare. In this case 18.7.41 SOVIET side give as reason gunfire from aircrafts. This is official soviet loss list, published in 1959 by Defence Ministry of USSR.
lupodimare89 wrote:
8) 22 July 1941 who sunk the MTB TK-71 ad a "little tug"? it was with gunfire?
3 S-Flotilla. Little tug was LAICHPLESIS, icebreaking tug.
Thanks ^^ But also here we've the problem of "twins"/renamed units.. with another "TK-71" lost at Someri v.v
Don't bother about it. Giving same name for new unit was common practice in soviet Navy.
I've read also that the German RA-53 and RA-55 were lost in that month. Navypeadia list them as lost in "8/1941" but give no causes. If i'm right the site sovynavy-ww2 mentioned them too.
Maybe there was another clash, or maybe they were lost due something else.
This is hard case. Loss data for two ex-dutch R-boote come from Groener, 2 bd. He stated that both lost on mines in Irrben strait. Indeed, boats worked with 36 MS-Flottilla under command FdM Ost. There is mention in half-month report for august 1st half, that dutch sweepers was very valuable. But documents don't say anything about loss of any RA-boote in august...
Interesting! To have some soviet data at least ^^ If i'm right Meister wrote it was an inconclusive engagement, but i've read he's not exactly accurate as author.
Meister is so ancient for now, that his work has little value. To many errors. In russian edition almost every page has half dozen remarks from Morozov, to correct this errors. And i think that only part of errors was corrected.
... all overclaim for what i've read, but this are things wrote today on books :/
My speech was not against overclaims. This is natural thing if we say about war times (and unforgivable for today), but you say that all sides iin war was tended to hide own casualties in their reports. I see very much documents of Kriegsmarine and can't remember any case when their hide damages in own reports for internal use.
If You say about hiding etc. you must add "in propaganda" or "in afterwar researches/books"
What means "KuMo" ?
Trawlers?
It is Kusten Motorschiff = coastal (cabotage) motorship. Germans named that way many various ships, includung motor schooners and little steamers.
Just found of this one too... i've read that M-3 and M-20 claimed to have sunk an attacker, but both reported to have suffered some light (possibly splinter i think) damages.
There always is possibility that "no damage" in reality prove to be several bullet or splinter holes. Nevermind, they didn't affect to combat readiness of ship or smtg else.

14 May 1944 Soviet MO-122 sunk by German MTBs. Other data?
6 S-Fl, germans has 2 wounded.
Identity of German boat possibly damaged?
Sorry i have no KTB for 6 S-Fl to say which boats participated. But if any of then became some sort of damage worth to bother, they reported about it. Here only wounded, so there was no damages at all, i think.
29) 30 May 1944 Soviet MTB TK-94 and others claim to have attacked eney "ship" and have sunk one of them.
*This was watch group of 4 minesweepers with M.37 in head. They suffered 1 man seriously wounded.
Just found that Germans claimed that 6 minesweepers engaged the soviet (5 MTBs) and claimed to have sunk one.
No data about the German ship hit? (maybe the M-37, if the wounded was on her).
There was only 4 minesweepers from 25 MS-Fl (M.3/37/19/29), one V-boot, one Flakjager and some AF/KFK. All ships parted for 3 different areas. They see 4-6 TKA and 5 torpedo tracks in water. No claims. From which ship was wounded, i don't know, M.37 was just Fuhrerboot that made all reports to FdM Ost.
32) 30 June 1944. Details about the sinking of TK-43, TK-63 and TK-161 vs German forces. Who sunk them? Total causalities? Possible light damages on German crafts?
....
You've other details? (full list of German units, and who received the light damages)
Sorry, no. I'm actually know not much about Baltic and Black sea, my main area of interest is North part of naval fighting between germans and soviets. About Arctic i know much more than other two Theaters.
I've found yesterday another site with long text with (it seemed to me) Soviet-sided account of a number of clashes of MO crafts in 1943. I will make a shorter list for them because some engagements seems very interesting and could match with some activity of German units.
tsushima.su? I'm live there with nick "igor". Btw soon big new book about to be released about MO-cutters in Baltic. Made by Morozov and Sutormin. I've read them and helped, this must be powerful thing.

lupodimare89
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Posts: 454
Joined: 07 Mar 2013 01:32

Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)

Post by lupodimare89 » 20 Mar 2013 11:26

All is very messed up with soviet small unit such TKA, MO and so on. There was many renaming and not rarely renaming was made AFTER boat actually sunk!
MO-306 is hard case. I mess them up yesterday. What i wrote is fate of cutter sunk 26/7/41 near Bengtskjar.
What we look is real MO-306, sunk 9/7/42 near Someri by artillery. No surprise, this boat has provisional name MO-510 when sunk!!
Noone "Moschka" (nickname for MO-cutters) was sunk 22/6/41
Thank you, now it's more clear ^^
Only last detail, at Bengtskjar was lost "MO-238" (as you wrote) or "MO-239"? As i read on finnish source (both are listed to have took part at the battle.
It is stated, that GORDYI in 12.25 near Someri sunk cutter "V-14".
Strange the difference with name, Finnish users on this forum wrote "AV-45" (and for description it seemed more a motorboat, with all the 4 men aboard kia) , maybe it changed number? Or maybe they were different units?
My speech was not against overclaims. This is natural thing if we say about war times (and unforgivable for today), but you say that all sides iin war was tended to hide own casualties in their reports. I see very much documents of Kriegsmarine and can't remember any case when their hide damages in own reports for internal use.
If You say about hiding etc. you must add "in propaganda" or "in afterwar researches/books"
I can only say that this happened in my country ... the night of Taranto was described as "only one ship was seriously damaged", and similar under-stimation of damages is widespreed. The point it's that sometimes authors take this (easier to find) data rather then make further research in war diaries ecc...
If other authors did the same in other countries, well... this is not good : /

Code: Select all

It is Kusten Motorschiff = coastal (cabotage) motorship. Germans named that way many various ships, includung motor schooners and little steamers.
Thank you ^^ it's a bit complicated thing... also think that we use different designation even for pretty "standard" units.
(an exemple, the "destroyers" are called here "cacciatorpediniere" = " Hunter-of-torpedoboats")

And for exemple i THINK to have finally understood that the "August" (damaged by machineguns of TK) in July 41, and the "Deutschland" (sunk by aircrafts) were actually the "SAT-3 August" and "LAT-23 Deutschland" .. both armed and both that can be classified as "auxiliary gunboats" (however navypedia (that still has some errors) don't list the LAT-23 as lost in 1941, maybe it sunk and was later raised?)
tsushima.su? I'm live there with nick "igor". Btw soon big new book about to be released about MO-cutters in Baltic. Made by Morozov and Sutormin. I've read them and helped, this must be powerful thing.
Oh.. i would really love to read it! It's so bad that i understand nothing of russian or germans (and sometimes have troubles with english too)
I hope to find some extracts on internet first or later
That site was this:
http://dpfmordoviya.ru
It's seems absolutely pro-Soviet side, but a number of clashes are very curious and apart overclaims could match with skirmish reported by germans... there are many reported in 1943 (not only the ones with Finnish) of groups of MO facing small crafts. (i'm really thrilled by this kind of battles, often bloody and violent.. but signs of extreme courage and deditions on both sides)
It's sad that i've found only an huge page about the Baltic, but very few for Black Sea and none for Artic
I will made a little list

PS
I will have some questions for Artic too ^^ but i think it's better doing step by step

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