Soviet Naval Battles

[igorr]

" 1 Jul. 1942
8 miles to the west of Ochakov mine -exploding vessel "191" sank after
hitting a mine. This has, unfortunately, caused the loss of the only
German mine -exploding vessel in the Black Sea. "
----------------
Sperrbrecher 191. I already read of thiss loss, it's known who laid the mine?

German magnet ground mine laid by aircrafts.

2 Jul
In the Black Sea area the Air Commander, South reports successful
attacks against ships at Anapa, Temryuk and Novorossisk. During
these attacks 2 destroyers and the training ship KOMINTERN were
damaged and a few smaller coastal vessels were sunk. For particulars
see daily situation report.
-----------------------------------------
Nothing else, but of course these attacks were failures. Still interesting to see if really Komintern had such contact.
Sadly nothing avaible for return fire.

Failures? There was many more ports bombed. In Novorossijsk that day was sunk TASHKENT, BDITELNYJ, motorship UKRAINA, salvage tug TCHERNOMOR. KOMINTERN, 2 DD's, patrol boats (torpedoboats in german classification) SHKVAL and SHTORM, floating dock, SS VOROSHILOV, 1 MTB and others. Losses was 106 killed and 164 wounded sailirs and 8+87 civil people. If you call this "failure", what is success? Soviet defence claimed 3 Ju.88 shot down, own losses 2 fighters.
In Anapa sunk SS EL'BORUS, 1 MTB, scooner DNESTR. Gunboat KRASNAYA ABKHAZIA was damaged. Claims 3 bombers, losses 2 fighters.
Taman': sunk 1 MTB, 1 SKA. 3 KIA + 8 WIA.
Temryuk: gunboat Nr. 4 sunk, 1 cutter-m/s and one SS damaged. 8 KIA + 12 WIA.
Akhtari: many material damages.
Eisk: only real failure - only little damages to port facilities.

Here we start on obscure things again: if i had recalled correctly, the date of this important engagement was on night of2/3 July and not 30 June. But maybe the diary reported it in late (after all this is the general war diaries, not the one for Black sea).
Also it's interesting that say that S-102 was damaged.
According what we said before, S-40 was heavily damaged (3kia and 10wia) and S-28 received fire too with 1 kia. But S-42 and S-102 were not mentioned as damaged.
Then, our previous talk ended with CKA-0112 and CKA-021 that were sunk. I re-checked and found that it was a previous Morozov list that said CKA-0112 and CKA-0124 as the one lost during this action.
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 7&start=15
Here however you wrote of CKA-021 (or "MO") as hit by aircraft, so what it was the second victim of the S-boats? The -0124?

Can't say anything more i said before. Have no wish to search this case in tenth time, sorry. If you wish all true you need KTB of 1 S-Flotille.

Finally, of the 37 pow captured, it's correct that General Novikov will die in a prison camp?

On Tsushima somebody say about him, maybe MM. IIRC Novikov escaped and died while fighting in partiasn's group. Or was killed during escape?

Harbor and railroad installations at Kamysh Burun were
shelled in the morning of 18 Jul. As a result of an enemy air raid
and shelling of Taganrog during the night of 16 Jul., one ship of
the Loeper Flotilla sank, while another one was badly damaged.
I GUESS that shelling could have been from coastal-ground artillery. Or there was kind of naval shelling?
However this "ship" sunk could have been possibly hit by the air raid too.

Again strange thing. That night (15/16) soviet MBR's bombed only Mariupol. And i think to that date in Azov sea no soviet ships was capable to shelling of Taganrog. But of course i may be wrong, cos' i have no documents.
Well i almost forgot that you can read KTB of Seekommandant Ukraine! http://www.wwii-photos-maps.com/kriegsm ... mmandaten/
Quality is very poor but you can ask man who manned this site for good-quality copies.
So there all looks good. Somebody make mistake, you or translator of KTB ASM, or schreiber from ASW-staff. 16.7 was air raid on Mariupol. not Taganrog. Shelling was conducted from Kriwaja Kossa, 2-3 guns.
Bombing of Taganrog was during night 16/17.7. This was alone MBR-2. Shelling was conducted by Red Army, not Navy.

27 Jul. 1942
During the night of 25 Jul., 1 enemy gunboat and 1 PT boat
attacked 2 German patrol vessels in the Sea of Azov. 1 patrol vessel
was sunk,, her crew is missing. ...
This is possibly one of the most interesting ones.
I reported the lines word-by-word as the previous ones. And telling that this "patrol vessel" sunk, seems that it was a GERMAN one (considering that in the previous line was speaking of german patrol vessels, and enemy had gunboat and PT) (even if we've to remember this is an english translation, for exemple it calls the MAS as "submarine chasers").
There is some Soviet data about this engagement?

This was SKA Nr. 0175 and TKA Nr. 154. They claimed two german scooners sunk during night 25/26.07. Think that was some captured soviet fishing boat maybe with croatian crew. In KTB Seekom. UKRAINE even name present but i can read only "2412".

[igorr]

RO.01 (ex. Hamburg) was sunk 21.7.42 in Feodosia haven during bomb splitters. Raid was made by 15 MBR-2 and one MTB. RO.01 was later raised and in 1944 captured by soviets.

[lupodimare89]

Failures? There was many more ports bombed. In Novorossijsk that day was sunk TASHKENT, BDITELNYJ, motorship UKRAINA, salvage tug TCHERNOMOR. KOMINTERN, 2 DD's, patrol boats (torpedoboats in german classification) SHKVAL and SHTORM, floating dock, SS VOROSHILOV, 1 MTB and others. Losses was 106 killed and 164 wounded sailirs and 8+87 civil people. If you call this "failure", what is success? Soviet defence claimed 3 Ju.88 shot down, own losses 2 fighters.
In Anapa sunk SS EL'BORUS, 1 MTB, scooner DNESTR. Gunboat KRASNAYA ABKHAZIA was damaged. Claims 3 bombers, losses 2 fighters.
Taman': sunk 1 MTB, 1 SKA. 3 KIA + 8 WIA.
Temryuk: gunboat Nr. 4 sunk, 1 cutter-m/s and one SS damaged. 8 KIA + 12 WIA.
Akhtari: many material damages.
Eisk: only real failure - only little damages to port facilities.

Sorry sorry! My mistake.. while reading it was thinking at some claims by S-boats, but i've missed to notice that it was a general claim so including also air attacks).

Can't say anything more i said before. Have no wish to search this case in tenth time, sorry. If you wish all true you need KTB of 1 S-Flotille.

Ok for German losses (it could have been easily a mistake confusing S-40 for S-102.). However the losses about the soviet units what could be now? 0112 and 0124 for the Germans, and MAYBE the MAS shelling 021 ?

This was SKA Nr. 0175 and TKA Nr. 154. They claimed two german scooners sunk during night 25/26.07. Think that was some captured soviet fishing boat maybe with croatian crew. In KTB Seekom. UKRAINE even name present but i can read only "2412".

Ok, thanks for te data! I will surely going to (attempt) to check this KTB.
Nevertheless and despite the little size/value of the target, this is an interesting addition for the soviet small boats.
I THINK that for now this could be the only (shared) total loss caused by a SKA boat on enemy boat (i guess she was of MO-4 class) ( plus, forgot, the already seen small finn. motorboat captured in Ladoga). Will try to check this KTB to see of this schooner was in duty of fishing and/or military duty.
Reading the KTB in english of Black Sea sometimes it was reported of fishing activity and seemed a "mixed" civilian/military works: with military staff on fishing boats (to prevent disertions of ukraine fishermen, i guess).

[lupodimare89]

Ok...
I took (once again) a little break from Black Sea because i was curious with this general german KTB to make a check on a pair of events. I think that i should do a very whole reading of it, but while checking for a specific event well.. i got a bit surprised to find again something of unexpected:

Baltic Sea:
Day, 30 August 1943.
We've seen before as the soviet guardboat n°605 was attacked and sunk in close engagement by a pair of KM german minesweepers.
Digging online i've actually found a little claim that the soviet unit made resistance:
" Дозорный сторожевой катер КМ-605 (старшина 2 статьи Яковлев) в неравном бою с 5 сторожевыми катерами неприятеля у Стрельны повредил 2 из них, но и сам был потоплен (спасено 6 человек). "
Claimed to be attacked by 5 enemies and that damaged 2 of them.
However, checking the KTB something of unexpected appeared: (here, "word-by-word")
"One of enemy patrol boat was destroyed. 3 of our minesweepers were sunk. Others damaged
It was an attempt to mine the Kronstadt channel. Operation was postponed because of a brush with the enemy. No human causalities. "
1) It seems that the German action wasn't a simple raid but a planned operations to lay mine. Possibly the closer operation deep inside the soviet water of Kronstadt.
2) The operation failed (and i've seen no data about a second attempt)
3) Germans speak about THREE of their units sunk and "Others" damaged. It's seems a bit movie-style that the KM-605 ALONE managed to sink 3 enemy crafts, force back the rest, make the enemy fails their plan, and sink as result during the battle.
That night, there was report of other soviet crafts firing against the enemy? or maybe coastal artillery + aircrafts combined?
Sadly the KTB doesn't give the exact number of minesweepers used in action neither the name of the units lost or damaged.

[lupodimare89]

Ok, it's seems clear that the German units were still these ones:
http://www.german-navy.de/kriegsmarine/ ... ships.html
Different units were reported as lost in August 1943, but all by air attacks, while other have confusing/unknown fate

I've checked the KTB and it mentions on day 21 August an air attack on them managed to sunk KM-6, KM-30 and KM-28 was beached.
So they can't be the ones lost on 30 August.

From 21 August to 30 August there are no other reports of losses. Other detail from day 30 say that it was the first attempt to mine Kronstadt channel and repetiton were not going to happens because "not promise success"

I'm going now to check if there are some details in the next days of the KTB (of september, no other words on 31 August report)

[igorr]

Units lost that night was all sturmboote. This was operation conducted by Army, not Navy. Yes i have this data about 3 sunk and some more damaged sturmboote.

[lupodimare89]

Oh, but that's still interesting! Even if small they're still targets sunk in action...

So the KM-605 (or n°605) was actually sunk by these sturmboote? Details said that it was a close engagement with machine guns and hand-granades launch.

However, the Soviet chronicles (or others) speak about some other soviet crafts or patrols involved in action?
Being so small targets, it's possible that n°605 could have caused sinking of 3 of the attackers? It's also a bit puzzling that line in KTB of "No causalities". 3 units lost and other damaged and no causalities at all? Maybe they wanted to say "none killed".

[igorr]

All soviet units arrived later when germans retreated. Two-three holes in sturmboot may caused his loss, so other cutters take off crew and flee because operation was broken.

[lupodimare89]

As i imagined. There is some details of the survivors of the n°605 ?
For this action i think they should have received some kind of recognition. It happened?

But (i think) if they were not aware of the german plans and to have make them fails, maybe their story got little-noted in the early soviet military historiography. (expecially if compared with other claims, that now we know of being inflated).

[igorr]

6 men was saved, commander, radioman and motorist was killed. I have no data if they were honored.

[lupodimare89]

Ok, good, let's go on with August 1942 in Black Sea


1 August
Already known victory for D-3 and SM-3 that torpedoed and destroyed F-334


2 August
The famous engagement with damage on cruiser Molotov. I've wrote some additionals question to Morozov with details from an article online. For now we don't need to dig more into this event until such data are considered fine or not. (however that article of E. Cernuschi mentioned 2 different books that reported the German air attacks on Molotov as only during the next day).

It's worth to say however that the War Diaries speaks of "From 22.45 our torpedo planes followed the force. " But then there is no mention of air attack, and in further description there is no word about a German claim. Instead it says clearly well that MAS claimed the sinking of a cruiser. Then on Day 6 August they mention that as confirmation that " Krasny Krim was sunk by Italians". Finally on Day 13 August they say (by air recce) "Krasny Krim was undamaged, and that probably was sunk a destroyer."
Apart for the wrong claim, from text it's a bit clear that at least the German Admiral's believed that the damage was inflicted by Italians, if there was some air claims, it doesn't reach the war diary. (at least not the main one, sadly the page for August in Black Sea for the BS diaries, it's missing).



4 August
On night of 4 august “one of our boats had an engagement with an enemy vessel. Three of our men were wounded”.
Some Soviet data? In text there is no mention neither to the kind of German vessels, sadly.



German S-boat victory, by Morozov
ТР «Севастополь» 1339 10.8.1942 + Лазаревское S-102
War diaries confirm it. It says that there was no soviet reaction apart depth charges launched (probably soviet believed it was a submarine attack).



19 August 1942
German minesweepers R-36, R-37 and R-166 sunk the small coastal minesweepers n° 574 and n° 578
War Diaries adds that: Other 2 escaped, no mention to damages on germans.
Soviet claimed some kind of damage inflicted on enemy? I've nothing that could confirm it however.



(from Morozov)
ТР «Ян Томп» 1988 31.8.1941 + Сочи S-28, S-102
Second German S-boat success over transports during this month.
Once again the War Diary say that Soviets launched depth charges as reaction.

[lupodimare89]

Apart this, i adds a bit more details about the engagement of PQ-13 in Artic Sea in 1942 (just found it checking).

As we told before, i was a bit more sure about the possibility that Sokrushitelnyi faced the Z-26,rather then allied unit, mainly due the fact that Eclipse's reported two different units as "mysterious ship targeted by Sokr." and "ship that appeared frontally", the latter one was quickly identified as the HMS Fury, the first was believed to be the HMS Trinidad (and for this reason, Eclipsed didn't joined Sokrushitelnyi in the fight). The reason to explain why both Sokr. and Grem. saw 1 target each ones could be the position of them: Sokr. being on left side of Eclipse had her attention focused on "Z-26/mysterious ship", while Grem. having her visual possibly covered by Sokr. and Eclipse, managed to see only the HMS Fury.
A second detail was the belief of HMS Eclipse that while watching and having found the Z-26, she still believed that it was the HMS Trinidad (identified as target of Sokr. fire) and intended to join her during the chase (having received news that "1enemy destroyer was damaged" and that the same Trinidad was damaged, but not that abandoned the chasing).

Now, the German War diaries seems to give further credit to Z-26 being faced by Sokrushitelnyi: here the text word-by-word (page 305":
During low visibility and snow flurries, destroyer Z-26 located a target by radar, and at 0948 encountered an enemy cruiser of the City class, which opened fire at a distance of 3,000 to 4,000 metres and shot a 6-fan. Z-26 was severaly hit at once by gunfire, but outmaneuvered the torpedoes. Z-24 shot a 7-fan at the cruiser; probably 1 of the torpedoes hit the target. Destroyer Z-24 and Z-25 lost contact with Z-26 in the snow flurries while the latter was outmaneuvering the torpedoes. Subsequently Z-26 had further encounters with 1 large and later 1 smaller destroyer, and suffered additional damage as well as heavy causalities.The intention to break through Honningsvaag could not be carried out. At 11.25 Z-24 and Z-25 reestablished contact with their hard-pressed flottilla leader, chased off the enemy destroyer by gunfire, and took aboard 88 survivors, 7 of them officers including the flottilla commander and the captain, as well as 23 dead, before Z-26 sank.8 more members of the crew were picked up by submarine U-376.

The details that Z-26 alone meet first a larger then a second smaller destroyer seems to give further credit that Sokr. met her.
Also the description of "larger" and then "smaller", fit well with difference of size between the soviet 7-class and the British E/F class

[lupodimare89]

As additional info, the next report on the war diaries on the battle say:
"Also 2 of the enemy destroyers last engaged by Z-26 were damaged by gunfire".
But while the Eclipse was probably claimed to be damaged by the other 2 German DDs, it's a bit unclear who and when (the same Z-26?) claimed to have damaged the first "larger" destroyer (possibly the Sokr.).
Still this further line confirms again that Z-26 had faced 2 enemy DDs when remained alone.

[igorr]

4 August
On night of 4 august “one of our boats had an engagement with an enemy vessel. Three of our men were wounded”.
Some Soviet data?

Nothing.

19 August 1942
German minesweepers R-36, R-37 and R-166 sunk the small coastal minesweepers n° 574 and n° 578
War Diaries adds that: Other 2 escaped, no mention to damages on germans.
Soviet claimed some kind of damage inflicted on enemy? I've nothing that could confirm it however.

There is only fact of their loss.

ТР «Ян Томп» 1988 31.8.1941 + Сочи S-28, S-102
Second German S-boat success over transports during this month.
Once again the War Diary say that Soviets launched depth charges as reaction.

No it was known that ship sunk by MTB's

[Felix C]

Gentlemen,

Pardon my intrusion in this truly informative thread but wish to ask if Jurg Meistrer's Seekrieg im OstEuropaischen Gewaasern is still a trustyworthy source in view of recent Russian literature?