Soviet Naval Battles

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igorr
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Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)

Post by igorr » 24 Sep 2013 13:16

F.470's damage reason: http://www.historisches-marinearchiv.de ... value=1344 (Ausfall Mittelmaschine und damit MES durch Pleuelbruch und Zertrümmerung Motorgehäuse).

igorr
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Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)

Post by igorr » 24 Sep 2013 13:33

Mangrove wrote:The Finnish watch stations along the Lake Onega spotted two Soviet gunboats and a large tugboat c. 10 kilometers SW of Vasilisin Island 1 June 1943. Three Fokker C.X light bombers were dispatched to bomb the boats. The observation stations saw the sinking of the tugboat one minute after the attack. The other gunboat received a minor hit on the aft and the other on the bow.

Later that day a Finnish reconnaissance flight observed a half-sunk boat near the mouth of the river. Do the Soviet sources confirm the Finnish observations of one sunken and one damaged boat?
I have no description for this event, but have confirm for losses.
Soviet ship sunk by Fokkers was gunboat Nr. 12 (actually was earlier river paddle steamer KALYAEV). Ship received 2 direct hits in stern. If i understand it correct attack was carried 12.40? Soviet loss time is 14.00msc. Place is Vasilisin island.
In that day also was damaged by aircrafts cutter-minesweeper Nr. 130. But thus happen later, at 18.15 in different operation (minesweeping near mouth of Vytegra river).

lupodimare89
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Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)

Post by lupodimare89 » 25 Sep 2013 10:54

Pity there is no time. There was one attack of MTB's registered by soviets at 23.05msc near Dederkoy (2 explosions of s-boote torpedoes at beach), and another strange attack (believed by soviets as from sub against M/S SCHIT near Tuapse). Both this case seems happen too much to NW from germas coordinats.
But no events registered at 6.11 at all. So one of 2 cases from 5.11 must be real S.72 attack. I think, first one (Dederkoy).
Checked again, should be the first event:
They claimed first to have attacked a steamer of 2000grt escorted by 2 gunboats: 3 eboats launched 6 torpedoes and all missed.
According Germans it was due the torpedo's failures. It's coincides with soviet account that they were close the coast infact it say that soviet 105mm coastal fire was opened against the s-boats (plus search-lights). Then the claim of the S-72 on the lighter is said to have been "at anchor off the coast".
ED: found location: grid square 0187 (meeting with the steamer)



December 1942 - Black Sea

1 December
the already seen event about Soviet DDs group bombing the coast, believing it was a group of ship.
The war diary show even that they believed that the Soviets could even "shot at each others", due the heavy fog.
The soviet raid has been intercepted by radio stations only at the last moment, it's further said that it was due chance that they intercepted nothing.


13 December
Again, already seen engagement between soviet minesweepers and small convoy. This time Germans said that Sovied proved to be not enaugh determined and could have achieved success if keeping on firing.
Once again the Germans weren't aware of the soviet presence on sea.

Also it's interesting to adds a big concern about such kind of attacks by the Germans, the war diary say how there could have been few to none defense against such raids (The German evaulation of the Romanian navy on these diaries seems very low).
Germans feared that further attacks could have caused trouble and losses.


night between 17/18 December
Report that S-72 sunk a ligher of 500GRT. Overclaim due lack of confirmations. Other torpedoes failed and circled (risking to hit S-28)
Probably between Tuapse and Sochi.

19 December
Already known bombing of Fedosyia, resulting in destroyer Nezamozhnik scoring a direct hit and sinking the coastal tug "D".
The War diary confirm the identity of the target as a tug (rather then coastal defense boat, as supposed), exact words are "“motor tug was set alight and burned out”".
Italian MAS attempt to came out but don't see the enemy.
E-boats returning cross the "two destroyers", but not engage.
We've already saw (by Morozov explain) how the german data of 3 harbor defense flottilla boats sunk (and a MAS damaged) was due the air attack and not further losses due the naval bombing.


night of 24/25 December
“two russian MTB fired at one another during the night” (24/25) (exact words)

27 December
ligher “Saone” run aground because hurry while sailing due supposed presence of Soviet destroyers on sea, in front of Yalta (had to reach Kerch, was ordered to reach an habor harbor when destroyers were noticed by air recconnaissence in grid square 2446 ).
This is considered the third DDs raid by soviets against shipping: this was also the only one (of the 3 ) to have been intercepted by radio.

igorr
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Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)

Post by igorr » 26 Sep 2013 08:55

lupodimare89 wrote: night between 17/18 December
Report that S-72 sunk a ligher of 500GRT. Overclaim due lack of confirmations. Other torpedoes failed and circled (risking to hit S-28)
Probably between Tuapse and Sochi.
Soviet convoy (transport ship TRAKTORIST, M/Sw ZEMLYAK + escort one large minesweeper and 3 SKA. Was attacked near Golovinsky, 23.50msc. Torpedoes exploded at beach.
night of 24/25 December
“two russian MTB fired at one another during the night” (24/25) (exact words)
Where? Which time? Two TKA, Nrs. 54 and 94, was near Anapa at 24 Dec. Enemy fire caused some splinters hit Nr. 54. Apart of this, no events 24-25.12.
27 December
ligher “Saone” run aground because hurry while sailing due supposed presence of Soviet destroyers on sea, in front of Yalta (had to reach Kerch, was ordered to reach an habor harbor when destroyers were noticed by air recconnaissence in grid square 2446 ).
This is considered the third DDs raid by soviets against shipping: this was also the only one (of the 3 ) to have been intercepted by radio.
4 M/Sweepers run on enemy communications and SOOBRASITELNYJ + BESPOSCHADNYJ covered them.

lupodimare89
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Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)

Post by lupodimare89 » 26 Sep 2013 11:35

Code: Select all

     night of 24/25 December
    “two russian MTB fired at one another during the night” (24/25) (exact words) 
Where? Which time? Two TKA, Nrs. 54 and 94, was near Anapa at 24 Dec. Enemy fire caused some splinters hit Nr. 54. Apart of this, no events 24-25.12.
Not a single word of details, it's a very short report.
Also there is no mention of fight-bombing-shelling etc. that night.
27 December
ligher “Saone” run aground because hurry while sailing due supposed presence of Soviet destroyers on sea, in front of Yalta (had to reach Kerch, was ordered to reach an habor harbor when destroyers were noticed by air recconnaissence in grid square 2446 ).
This is considered the third DDs raid by soviets against shipping: this was also the only one (of the 3 ) to have been intercepted by radio.
4 M/Sweepers run on enemy communications and SOOBRASITELNYJ + BESPOSCHADNYJ covered them.
It's an interesting event, differently from the two other operations, the Germans were aware of their presence. The diary it says that all the convoys were stopped but this convoy departed despite the ban: it was formed by 2 ferry barges,the tug KIEL and the steamer SAONE. Convoy left i think from Balaklava to reach Kerch. The Admiral atttempted to contact Balaklava but it say that there was interferences between Sevastopol and Balaklava. Also convoy had no radio, so finally the Yalta port commander managed to contact them ( i think by visual communication) in afternoon and force them to enter in Yalta.
It was now that the Saone run aground in front of Yalta while entering.

It was another good occasion because basically this convoy had no protection.

lupodimare89
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Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)

Post by lupodimare89 » 27 Sep 2013 13:45

Then, here we start with 1943 in Black Sea, an year full of engagements, for what i collected.

(nothing for first part of Jan. of course due ice conditions)

19/20 January 1943
7 soviet MTBs reported to have attacked Novorossisk during the night. 1 boat “set alight” by defensive German coastal fire.
The war diary say that no reports has arrived about damage or losses.
Sadly the next daily reports doesn't mention this attack again, so damage caused could have been nothing or very slight.



23 January
The already seen engagement between submarine ShCh-215 against tugs Stralsund, Netty towing L-1357 and barges F-125 and F-309. Morosov wrote that according a very recent checking, only Stralsund received some damage that kept her out of operation for some time. The exact words of the diary mention "scored some insignifcant hits on the tugs and lighter", basically this could means that if the L-1357 and even the tug Netty, got some machine-guns hits, they weren't worthy to keep them out of operations and the hits could have been fixed in few time (apart for the previous damage on the L-1357 unrelated to this fight, and apart from Stralsund that Morozov confirmed of being under repair for little time).

igorr
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Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)

Post by igorr » 27 Sep 2013 16:29

lupodimare89 wrote: 19/20 January 1943
7 soviet MTBs reported to have attacked Novorossisk during the night. 1 boat “set alight” by defensive German coastal fire.
The war diary say that no reports has arrived about damage or losses.
Sadly the next daily reports doesn't mention this attack again, so damage caused could have been nothing or very slight.
This was an operation for landing recon troops on mole. Participated SKA Nr. 0164 (KM-type) and raod cutter STALINETS. 2 TKA made cover for them. SKA landed troops but immediately was shelled and sunk. Nobody survived including 8 recon troops. Other ships returned in Gelendjik. TKA Nr.76 was damaged.

lupodimare89
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Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)

Post by lupodimare89 » 28 Sep 2013 09:54

Ok, February, a lots of engagements here:



8 February 1943
S-102 claim with torpedo a ligher of 250tons off the coast south-west Cape Sudehuk
During the 7/8 night, Operation started from 0048. No other vessels sighted


12 February
Tug Haniel-24 sunk off the south dock of Kerch due explosion after explosion
Cause not discovered.
Could scarcely be a non-contact mine in view of the shallow water (3-4 metres). 2 wia

14 February 43
Hour: 19.57 MAS-569 launch 2 torpedoes against a submarine on distance of 500m, evaded.
MAS keep on with surface attack, submarine dive, then depth charges launched.
10 miles east of Cape Ili.


18 February 1943
First eboat flotilla from h02.00 (night between 17/18) at cape idokopas
Attack against a a steamer of 1000tons with 2 coastal vessel as escort.
Eboats recognized and fired upon. S-28 launch 2 torpedoes, evaded by steamer.
Hour: 03.20 S-28 claim to have sunk a ligher of 500tons
Another attack to the previous steamer, again 2 torpedoes from S-102 are evaded.
Enemy fire gunfire and machine guns.
No hits, damage or causalities on Eboats



23 February 1943
Hour: 17.15 At Ivan Baba
1st flottilla ebaots launch up to 6 torpedoes against a ShCh-class submarine.
grid square CL 6184. It was considered a big failure.




24 February 1943
Hour 21.34 S-47 claim to have torpedoed and destroyed a steamer that was grounded, the group of E-boats was sent to destroy it. Grid CL 9172
But according report of day 25, it seem that it was destroyed another steamer (claimed of 2000t) that was sailing close the grounded one, under escort of 2 gunboats.



27 February 1943
Probably the best day for the German eboats in Black Sea.
All confirmed by morozov, were torpedoed and sunk the minesweeper Tszcz-403, the tug Mius and the gunboat Red Georgia (this one was actually badly damaged and run aground, then finished by artillery and aircrafts).
Names of attackers are S-28, S-51, S-72 and S-102. Near cape Myshako.
The T-403 was the only Fugas-class ever lost during a surface attack.
According the war diary, the attack started at h.20.00 (of the 26/27 night), the total toll of claims is: 1 torpedo boat sunk (3 hits claimed)(this was probably the minesweeper), 1 steamer of 2500grt, 1 steamer of 1200grt, 1 coastal vessel of 800grt.
There is no mention about reaction fire, damages or losses among the Germans.

igorr
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Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)

Post by igorr » 29 Sep 2013 08:19

lupodimare89 wrote: 8 February 1943
S-102 claim with torpedo a ligher of 250tons off the coast south-west Cape Sudehuk
During the 7/8 night, Operation started from 0048. No other vessels sighted
No clues from soviet side. As no ships come alone, this must be some wrack or rock.
14 February 43
Hour: 19.57 MAS-569 launch 2 torpedoes against a submarine on distance of 500m, evaded.
MAS keep on with surface attack, submarine dive, then depth charges launched.
10 miles east of Cape Ili.
It was D-5. No damages.
18 February 1943
First eboat flotilla from h02.00 (night between 17/18) at cape idokopas
Attack against a a steamer of 1000tons with 2 coastal vessel as escort.
Eboats recognized and fired upon. S-28 launch 2 torpedoes, evaded by steamer.
L'VOV. Soviet side detected 10 torpedoes! It seems that other attack also was against him. Escort was made of SKA Nr. 019 and 049.
24 February 1943
Hour 21.34 S-47 claim to have torpedoed and destroyed a steamer that was grounded, the group of E-boats was sent to destroy it. Grid CL 9172
But according report of day 25, it seem that it was destroyed another steamer (claimed of 2000t) that was sailing close the grounded one, under escort of 2 gunboats.
No clues from soviet side. Again must be some wrack or rock.

igorr
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Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)

Post by igorr » 29 Sep 2013 13:40

One question out from our talking: did you know, which cargo ship carried italian MTB to Finland in 1942?

lupodimare89
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Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)

Post by lupodimare89 » 29 Sep 2013 17:11

It was the Thielbeck, loaded them on Stettin (evening of 6 June), unloaded them at Helsinki (morning of 9 June).
Then they started to be towed (don't know by who) from Helsinki to Viipuri three days later
On our forum is reported "4800t" of tonnage, i think it could/should be the Thielbeck (2815 grt)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Thielbek_%281940%29

igorr
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Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)

Post by igorr » 29 Sep 2013 17:44

Well i was able to read name of ship on photo from finnish online archive. Look here http://sa-kuva.fi/neo?tem=webneoeng and type "Siideran" in search box right upper corner. Name of ship is SUDERAU and i found other picture of her, it is she. Btw there is lot of photos with italians and their cutters.

lupodimare89
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Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)

Post by lupodimare89 » 29 Sep 2013 21:17

Well i was able to read name of ship on photo from finnish online archive. Look here http://sa-kuva.fi/neo?tem=webneoeng and type "Siideran" in search box right upper corner. Name of ship is SUDERAU and i found other picture of her, it is she. Btw there is lot of photos with italians and their cutters.
I got the data from a general account, maybe some kind of mistake or maybe Suderau brought one or more MAS from Helsinki to Viipuri...
There is a photo on the italian forum here, http://img60.imageshack.us/img60/8636/img0002kj3.jpg
That should show the arrival of the merchant in Helsinki.

However, here the list for March 1943 Black Sea



1 March 1943
An interesting event (during morning, after having left Fedosia) : 4 italian MAS are "followed" by soviet MTB that probably believed to being follow other friendly units. The MAS accellerated to leave behind the soviets and not engaged.


night of 12/13 March 1943
Italian motor torpedo boats MAS-568, MAS-569, MAS-570 and MAS-572 claim to have hit two soviet motor torpedo boats.
Ghelenjik, Cape Doob, and headland near Myshako.
German reports that MAS-568 scored hits on enemy boats.
No italian damage or causalities.

Same night 2 MTB reported to attack Anapa Bay, 1 sunk by coastal artillery.

If i'm right, they should have been TK-92 and TK-62: the first one was sunk by artillery, and possibly she was also the same one that was reached by italian MAS gunfire, before being shelled by coastal artillery (commander captured).

Same night of 12/13 March 1943
S-26 and S-27 claim torpedoing of tanker of 7000tons. Southeast Tuapse. Target reported as set afire.
"Inaccurate soviet coastal fire"
Morozov confirm the target hit as :
ТН «Москва» 6086 13.3.1943 = Лазаревское S-26, S-47



night of 17/18 March
S-28 claim to have torpedoed a ligher of 500t off the mouth of Shacko
But maybe it was a wreck. But then they say there were no wreck and it was a vessel

During night of 18march (i think between 18/19)
8th landing craft transport attacked by enemy PT boats anchored off Shelesni Rog (Kerch):
(Acccording the general War Diaries. No success was achieved).


22 March
Barges near cape chauda attacked with 4 torpedoes by submarines. Then they claim to have scored 20mm hits on submarine.


23 March
h.04.30 3 soviet MTB attacked german ferries (i guess MFP) at Cape opuk
Ferries open fire. Seems no damage on both side.


30 March
General War diariesonly : (word-by-word)
" Naval Shore Commander, Caucasus successfully raided the coastal strip northeast of Temriuk in connection with a landing operation of the 49th Army Corps. Three motor fishing cutters and two motor tugs were employed. One boat was sunk by one of our own chasers. "
I guess that "chasers" could means some other kind of boat.

Mangrove
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Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)

Post by Mangrove » 30 Sep 2013 15:12

lupodimare89 wrote: There is a photo on the italian forum here, http://img60.imageshack.us/img60/8636/img0002kj3.jpg
That should show the arrival of the merchant in Helsinki.
I think the photograph is not taken at Helsinki but in some Central European city. If we assume the photograph would have been taken at Helsinki, the building density would suggest this was taken near at or near South Harbour (fi: Eteläsatama) or Hietalahti Shipyard at Helsinki, but to the best of my knowledge, there are no such piers near them and certainly no such stairway as seen on the background.

igorr
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Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)

Post by igorr » 01 Oct 2013 10:30

lupodimare89 wrote: 1 March 1943
An interesting event (during morning, after having left Fedosia) : 4 italian MAS are "followed" by soviet MTB that probably believed to being follow other friendly units. The MAS accellerated to leave behind the soviets and not engaged.
TKA Nr 65 and 115 was near Tuzla, Nr. 23 and 53 - in Area Anapa - Solenoe lake. One from this group meet 4 enemy MTB's but didn't attack them. But this happen 20.00msc 28.2.43. No TKA's in sea after 9.00msc 1.3.43 when all 4 entered Gelendzik.
night of 12/13 March 1943
Italian motor torpedo boats MAS-568, MAS-569, MAS-570 and MAS-572 claim to have hit two soviet motor torpedo boats.
Ghelenjik, Cape Doob, and headland near Myshako.
German reports that MAS-568 scored hits on enemy boats.
No italian damage or causalities.
This night TKA Nr. 54, 84, 104 and 124 was on watch near Myshako. 104 and 124 was in fighting with 3 enemy MTB's from 23.45msc. Enemy retreat, no claims, no hits.
Same night 2 MTB reported to attack Anapa Bay, 1 sunk by coastal artillery.
If i'm right, they should have been TK-92 and TK-62: the first one was sunk by artillery, and possibly she was also the same one that was reached by italian MAS gunfire, before being shelled by coastal artillery (commander captured).
see above. Sunk was Nr. 92 but he not touched with italians.
night of 17/18 March
S-28 claim to have torpedoed a ligher of 500t off the mouth of Shacko
But maybe it was a wreck. But then they say there were no wreck and it was a vessel
No attacks registered by soviet side, so it was wreck.
During night of 18march (i think between 18/19)
8th landing craft transport attacked by enemy PT boats anchored off Shelesni Rog (Kerch):
(Acccording the general War Diaries. No success was achieved).
All soveit MTB's that night returned due bad weather. No attacks was made.
22 March
Barges near cape chauda attacked with 4 torpedoes by submarines. Then they claim to have scored 20mm hits on submarine.
L-6's attack. Sub didn't mentioned any gun shelling, only 12 DC's.
23 March
h.04.30 3 soviet MTB attacked german ferries (i guess MFP) at Cape opuk
Ferries open fire. Seems no damage on both side.
No attacks by TKA's 22-24 march.

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