Soviet Naval Battles

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Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)

Post by Juha Tompuri » 20 Mar 2013 13:55

Thank you igorr.

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Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)

Post by igorr » 20 Mar 2013 16:19

lupodimare89 wrote: Only last detail, at Bengtskjar was lost "MO-238" (as you wrote) or "MO-239"? As i read on finnish source (both are listed to have took part at the battle.
Actually, this was cutter of Border Guard NKVD - Morpogranokhrana. His name was PK-238. Then 25.7.41 boat became MO-306 with navy (KBF) and lost next day. 16 men saved VMV-13.
Strange the difference with name, Finnish users on this forum wrote "AV-45" (and for description it seemed more a motorboat, with all the 4 men aboard kia) , maybe it changed number? Or maybe they were different units?
Nothing strange. This is soviet data from 40s years, we can meet in sov. docs from wartime more strange names for enemy ships.
Thank you ^^ it's a bit complicated thing... also think that we use different designation even for pretty "standard" units. (an exemple, the "destroyers" are called here "cacciatorpediniere" = " Hunter-of-torpedoboats")
Well, we here in Russia call them "esminetz" = "eskadrenniy minonosetz" = "mine carrier of Squadron". Pretty strange, isn't it? Very far from Destroyer and Zerstorer.
And for exemple i THINK to have finally understood that the "August" (damaged by machineguns of TK) in July 41, and the "Deutschland" (sunk by aircrafts) were actually the "SAT-3 August" and "LAT-23 Deutschland" .. both armed and both that can be classified as "auxiliary gunboats" (however navypedia (that still has some errors) don't list the LAT-23 as lost in 1941, maybe it sunk and was later raised?)
You absolutely right about AUGUST. And absolutely wrong about DEUTSCHLAND. This was not LAT, but little "Stossboot" for landing operation. All damages suffered 13.7.41 was as follows: D. sunk, AUGUST has malfunction in machine and power unit, and LAT GERMANIA too. Last was towed by AUGUST, but all this happen without any hits from TKA. Hits received other vessels - barges B.1.P, B.2.P, EEMSLAND, A.279.P, A.291.PM and A.289.PM, but this is damage from TKA and aircrafts. Who exactly scored - i don't know for sure, but this all was very minor damages.
Beware! Man behind this site is militant ignoramus, who talks very much about things he didn't understand. Many arrogance, much many errors.
I will have some questions for Artic too ^^ but i think it's better doing step by step
Your welcome.

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Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)

Post by lupodimare89 » 20 Mar 2013 18:43

Thanks again!
You absolutely right about AUGUST. And absolutely wrong about DEUTSCHLAND. This was not LAT, but little "Stossboot" for landing operation. All damages suffered 13.7.41 was as follows: D. sunk, AUGUST has malfunction in machine and power unit, and LAT GERMANIA too. Last was towed by AUGUST, but all this happen without any hits from TKA. Hits received other vessels - barges B.1.P, B.2.P, EEMSLAND, A.279.P, A.291.PM and A.289.PM, but this is damage from TKA and aircrafts. Who exactly scored - i don't know for sure, but this all was very minor damages.
Good! I was confused about the Deut. because of that thing.
I had found users talking in that russian forum about it and for what i've tried to translated read it seemed that:
barges A-279, A-291, S-289, but also two ships i think that should be "tugs" (R.18 and D.118) minesweeper R-169 and MTB S-58 suffered all very light damages only inflicted by aircraft (the S-58 with a single wia).
Same thing for barges B-1P, B-2P and Eemlan that suffered the same very light damages by the TK fire
(the attack carried by TK-17, TK-87, TK-73 and TK-93 )
About the August however i'm a bit more sure to have read that it got a bit heavier damages (60 hits of machine guns), but no causalities because was hit on the flank.
Others events related on the actions in Gulf of Riga are of course the Steregushchyi with her claims, but that her action could have lead actually light damages on R-31 and R-3; while R-168 was damaged by aircraft at the same time.
Another german text said that no direct hit was scored but the shell's explosions were so strong that the glasses of the R-boats were broken, lightly wounding some sailors.
Unrelated but ever part of the Riga Gulf campagin it's the Artem + Surovyi vs convoy. As i said there Germans said about one killed and three wounded on the SAT-1 Ost when it run aground (when they were destroying documents, before abandoning the ship, possibly at that time the destroyer inflicted some hits) but i've not understood if the two other ships involved (Maggie, a steamer, and Olga) received light damages or not.
Beware! Man behind this site is militant ignoramus, who talks very much about things he didn't understand. Many arrogance, much many errors.
Oh... ok, i've made a rough translation of some things he say. Some seems to be older standard soviet outdated things.
Nothing of exagerated, just material that could be interesting if compared with German stuff ^^

However, this is a list of the things that i've found about "MO" :
(Probably some are analyzed by Morozov in the next book). Of course there are no details on the enemy units engaged or identity, and there is almost surely some overlcaim, but some events also give details about MO damaged in battle...

23 May 1943 (the already clear engagement between MO-303 and MO-207 vs VMV-8, VMV-9, VMV-10, VMV-11, VMV-17, and Hurja-1, Hurja-2, Hurja-3, Hurja-4 and Hurja-5. And the most known i think: with both the Soviet ships damaged, 2 kia and many other wia. Finnish had VMV-17 damaged (2 kia and 1 wia) and two other units damaged (i don't know which ones)with 2 further wia).

31 May 1943 MO-101 and MO-302 vs "four MTBs" (one of them claimed sunk)

2 June 1943 MO-413, MO-104, MO-105, MO-302, MO-101 and patrol boats CKA-172 and CKA-182 vs "8 enemy boats" during the fight the MO-413 was encircled but was saved by the other units that claimed to have hit an enemy. There was then also enemy coastal fire on the Soviet ships, but with no damage inflicted.

17 July 1943 MO-302 and MO-207 vs " 3 and then other 4 enemy patrol boats" (one claimed damaged) then the same group clashed again against MO-402 and MO-408 (that reported 4 enemy boats + a fifth one later) and again one was claimed damaged

19 August 1943 MO-124 and MO-203 vs 5 enemy boats, no inflicted damage was reported but the first unit laid smoke screens while the second even used depth charges to create confusion.

22 August 1943 MO-124, MO-408 and MO-409 vs "enemy patrols and MTBs", MO-408 damaged an enemy boat.

7 September 1943 MO-207 and MO-124 vs "4 enemy MTBs" and that one was damaged by MO-207

8 September 1943 again MO-207 and MO-124 first reported to have tried to attack three enemy boats, then spotted a convoy of 3 minesweepers, with MTBs and a tug with a barge and many patrol boats.
The two soviet units followed the enemy that laid smoke screens only to be spotted in this way by Soviet MTBs and aircrafts. Soviet MTBs claimed to have damaged two minesweepers.

16 May 1944 MO-101 and MO-313 had a clash with "4 enemy boats then joined by other 2. "
MO-313 was damaged with 5 wia and claimed to have damaged an enemy boat.

26 May 1944 MO-302 fought against "five enemy boats" . The soviet unit reported to have attempted to ram an enemy boat. The MO-302 was damaged with the death of the commander (Lt.Sidorenko) other two and 11 other crewmembers were wia but the enemy fled after the ramming attempt.

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Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)

Post by igorr » 21 Mar 2013 04:16

lupodimare89 wrote: 23 May 1943 (the already clear engagement between MO-303 and MO-207 vs VMV-8, VMV-9, VMV-10, VMV-11, VMV-17, and Hurja-1, Hurja-2, Hurja-3, Hurja-4 and Hurja-5. And the most known i think: with both the Soviet ships damaged, 2 kia and many other wia. Finnish had VMV-17 damaged (2 kia and 1 wia) and two other units damaged (i don't know which ones)with 2 further wia).
Finnish MTB didn't participated. VMV-17 received hit in machine room. Here one man dead, radioman wounded. VMV-10 towed VMV-17 to Koivisto. No other finnish unit damaged. There is fin. report translated to russian http://i19.fastpic.ru/big/2011/0409/69/ ... 843e69.jpg
MO-217 has 2 dead and 3 wounded. Additiomally in 2nd part of fighting participated MO-124.
lupodimare89 wrote: 31 May 1943 MO-101 and MO-302 vs "four MTBs" (one of them claimed sunk)
In reality there was two more MO - 121 and 122. They battled with 4 enemy MTB, but in reality there was 4 VMV and 4 MTB, attacked soviet convoy but claimed no hits. JYKSE and VIHURI collided in this fight.
lupodimare89 wrote: 2 June 1943 MO-413, MO-104, MO-105, MO-302, MO-101 and patrol boats CKA-172 and CKA-182 vs "8 enemy boats" during the fight the MO-413 was encircled but was saved by the other units that claimed to have hit an enemy. There was then also enemy coastal fire on the Soviet ships, but with no damage inflicted.
One man from soviet side wounded, some boats has damage.
lupodimare89 wrote: 17 July 1943 MO-302 and MO-207 vs " 3 and then other 4 enemy patrol boats" (one claimed damaged) then the same group clashed again against MO-402 and MO-408 (that reported 4 enemy boats + a fifth one later) and again one was claimed damaged
With MO-408 was 404, not 402. MO-302/207 claimed one enemy boat exploded and sunk. MO-404/408 reported 4 unknown cutters and later one MTB. This pair claim no hits.
lupodimare89 wrote: 19 August 1943 MO-124 and MO-203 vs 5 enemy boats, no inflicted damage was reported but the first unit laid smoke screens while the second even used depth charges to create confusion.
MO's has light splitter damage, 2 men light wounded.
lupodimare89 wrote: 22 August 1943 MO-124, MO-408 and MO-409 vs "enemy patrols and MTBs", MO-408 damaged an enemy boat.
Only clash for 22.8.43 - MO-104/105 with 6 and 3 enemy cutters, no claim.
lupodimare89 wrote: 7 September 1943 MO-207 and MO-124 vs "4 enemy MTBs" and that one was damaged by MO-207
MO-207 has 4 hits, 1 man dead, 1 man wounded.
lupodimare89 wrote: 8 September 1943 again MO-207 and MO-124 first reported to have tried to attack three enemy boats, then spotted a convoy of 3 minesweepers, with MTBs and a tug with a barge and many patrol boats.
The two soviet units followed the enemy that laid smoke screens only to be spotted in this way by Soviet MTBs and aircrafts. Soviet MTBs claimed to have damaged two minesweepers.
It's some kind of mistake with translaton, i think. There was no fights 8.9.43, but second fight on 7th. Convoy under attack was soviet and finns can sunk barge LTP-11 with tug K-12.

Generally speaking, this thread http://www.tsushima.su/forums/viewtopic.php?id=7161&p=1
has many answers to your question if you can translate them. Here above mentioned book about MO's in Baltic was born.

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Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)

Post by Vaeltaja » 21 Mar 2013 06:08

igorr wrote:
lupodimare89 wrote: Strange the difference with name, Finnish users on this forum wrote "AV-45" (and for description it seemed more a motorboat, with all the 4 men aboard kia) , maybe it changed number? Or maybe they were different units?
Nothing strange. This is soviet data from 40s years, we can meet in sov. docs from wartime more strange names for enemy ships.
AV = Apuvene - small motorboats used by the Finnish Coast Guard in roles where it would be inconvenient to use larger boats. Modern example: - AV is the little dinghy on the left.

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Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)

Post by lupodimare89 » 21 Mar 2013 19:14

Generally speaking, this thread http://www.tsushima.su/forums/viewtopic.php?id=7161&p=1
has many answers to your question if you can translate them. Here above mentioned book about MO's in Baltic was born.
Thank you igorr for your very clear replies! And thank you for the link ^^ I'm a bit tired today, but tomorrow will edit my world file and will explore that discussion.
It's some kind of mistake with translaton, i think. There was no fights 8.9.43, but second fight on 7th. Convoy under attack was soviet and finns can sunk barge LTP-11 with tug K-12.
Maybe (being the last ones i could have rushed) but i think to have copied the date well and that site reported them in different dates if they were nocturnal fights (there is also this problem about night fightings... before or after midnight and if it was on local or moscow hour)

Finnish MTB didn't participated. VMV-17 received hit in machine room. Here one man dead, radioman wounded. VMV-10 towed VMV-17 to Koivisto. No other finnish unit damaged. There is fin. report translated to russian http://i19.fastpic.ru/big/2011/0409/69/ ... 843e69.jpg
MO-217 has 2 dead and 3 wounded. Additiomally in 2nd part of fighting participated MO-124.
That's interesting because it lower the Finnish causalities that are reported on that good Finnish site (that could have still some errors as some little overclaims, concerning that engagement wrote of 2 enemy boats sunk, but it write pretty clearly 2 kia and 1 wia on vmv-17 and two other wia on others. )
AV = Apuvene - small motorboats used by the Finnish Coast Guard in roles where it would be inconvenient to use larger boats. Modern example: - AV is the little dinghy on the left.
For some seconds i focused the eyes on the larger one, hehe XD

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Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)

Post by Juha Tompuri » 21 Mar 2013 21:00

Vaeltaja wrote:
igorr wrote:
lupodimare89 wrote: Strange the difference with name, Finnish users on this forum wrote "AV-45" (and for description it seemed more a motorboat, with all the 4 men aboard kia) , maybe it changed number? Or maybe they were different units?
Nothing strange. This is soviet data from 40s years, we can meet in sov. docs from wartime more strange names for enemy ships.
AV = Apuvene - small motorboats used by the Finnish Coast Guard in roles where it would be inconvenient to use larger boats. Modern example: - AV is the little dinghy on the left.
Perhaps a bit similar sized boat was captured by Soviet MO-boats at Lake Lagoga 1942:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 9&t=197683

Regards, Juha

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Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)

Post by igorr » 22 Mar 2013 02:43

lupodimare89 wrote: Maybe (being the last ones i could have rushed) but i think to have copied the date well and that site reported them in different dates if they were nocturnal fights (there is also this problem about night fightings... before or after midnight and if it was on local or moscow hour)
In any way, this is mistake. Fight was around 01.00 Moscow time 7.9 and no such clashes recorded at late 7.9 and all 8.9. And convoy was soviet.

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Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)

Post by lupodimare89 » 22 Mar 2013 11:39

Code: Select all

 Perhaps a bit similar sized boat was captured by Soviet MO-boats at Lake Lagoga 1942:
That's an interesting add! ^^
Location and date are very very close to the clash of 1/September/1942. When MO-201, MO-213 and MO-215 fought against MAS-529 (there was damage on the MAS, but i've read no mention to causalities in italian sites, and not all the sources report about damages) (about damages suffered by Italians on Ladoga i've read a great testimoniance of the son of a sailor on MAS-527, that reported how during the fight of 15 August 1942 a soviet shell has drilled from side to side the boat, and that they had to sail at maximum speed on the way back to not take water inside and sink).

It's interesting that Vekkosaari is located north in the Lake, and this means that Soviet MO kept operating in an area that should have been under Italian/German/Finnish control.


Some other curious engagement (if you've linx with text that speak about one of them in detail, don't waste time copying data ^^simply write the link)

The sinking of the Finnish escort Aura-II on 13/Jan/40
If i'm right all the Finnish sources mention that the ship was sunk because of self-detonation of depth charge.
Town.ural mention that submarine ShCh-324 reported to have surfaced and fired shells, while Finnish counter-report that the submarine surfaced for little and did not fire.
What's said exactly on the war diaries/mission diaries of ShCh-324? And what said Morozov about this?
Honestly i think that if soviet official archieves are clear about ShCh-324 firing shells, the possibility of sinking by Soviet fire can't be easily ruled out.

17 August 1941 that site reporting old soviet data mention that the Soviet gunbship Krasnoye Znamya made bombing during Narva fighting on German targets and destroyed some "pontoons". It's confirmed by some other source?

A Similar thing could have happened on 24 August 1941, i read "Ygisu Cape" and "Keila river" as location of a bombing that invovled the cruiser Kirov and the leader destroyer Leningrad. And that a "ferry" of soviet origin that was captured by German troops was sunk on the river. (maybe it was some other kind of ship/boat, there is some more clues about what could have been happened?

14 September 1941
It's not strictly a naval engagement, but many sources report that in Helsinki were sunk by sabotage the German minesweepers R-60, R-61 and R-62 with losses of 61 killed among personal. There is some more data about this operation? It was done by some Finnish communist underground groups or by Soviet operatives?
(and if it was done by soviet action it could be interesting to see if was done by agents alreadi in Helsinki or by divers landed by submarine or boat)

Still speaking about submarines that engaged in fire battles there is the sinking of ShCH-408 in 26 May 1943, i've read many reports that speak of "small German crafts" but i've not understood who they were and if they got damages (i've seen an amazing soviet art that show a sort of "last stand fight", possibly a bit exageratted but still fascinating ^^)

And another pair of clashes with TK (i'm sure i could find some data on that forum, but i wrote them here in every case)

5 September 1943 the TK-94 against "minesweepers" (possibly 2 sinking claimed), but reported to have suffered damages and at least 2 wia

? November 1943 (no mention about exact day)
Soviet MTBs vs "8 enemy ships that approached to trawlers. 6 enemy ships were claimed sunk and 2 damaged" (<< thinks it's one of the largest overclaim, but i could have read bad)

--------

11 June 1944 the event that occurred on Lake Peipus involving BK-213 and BK-322 and German boats.
I'm very interested to read multiple account of this engagement because it's still the most clear enemy armed boat sunk/destroyed in battle by a soviet unit in Baltic during the war (excluding the events in Winter War) with gunfire + ramming (and possibly of all the war including the other fleets)
I've read both as "KM-08" as name of the German unit lost (with 9 mia of 11 crew, and 6 of them captured by Soviets) but if i'm right another comment on this forum said about a "MAL"

And at this i could add the ultimate fate of V-5713, damaged in battle by Soviet gunships (Volga or Zeya) at 21 November 1944. It could be very interesting reading about german documents if the ship was repaired in the next months or if remained out of service until the end of the war.

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Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)

Post by igorr » 22 Mar 2013 15:33

lupodimare89 wrote: The sinking of the Finnish escort Aura-II on 13/Jan/40
If i'm right all the Finnish sources mention that the ship was sunk because of self-detonation of depth charge.
Town.ural mention that submarine ShCh-324 reported to have surfaced and fired shells, while Finnish counter-report that the submarine surfaced for little and did not fire.
Official Chronicle say, that sub only showed their tower and quickly sumberged. No firings. I will see what Morozov wrote in his book abouts "Shchuka"'s.
Upd: Well, he wrote that DC exploded in AURA's DC-thrower. Sub don't uwe their gun.
lupodimare89 wrote: 17 August 1941 that site reporting old soviet data mention that the Soviet gunbship Krasnoye Znamya made bombing during Narva fighting on German targets and destroyed some "pontoons". It's confirmed by some other source?
Only german Heer's documents can help in this case. I've never see them.
lupodimare89 wrote: 14 September 1941
It's not strictly a naval engagement, but many sources report that in Helsinki were sunk by sabotage the German minesweepers R-60, R-61 and R-62 with losses of 61 killed among personal. There is some more data about this operation? It was done by some Finnish communist underground groups or by Soviet operatives?
(and if it was done by soviet action it could be interesting to see if was done by agents alreadi in Helsinki or by divers landed by submarine or boat)
Somewhere here on this site already was discussion about this. Maybe Juha remember exactly where, he remember everything.
I've ready detailed german account about this case. Sabotage aspect researched very deep, but there were no strong proofs for this version. Seems like germans wants to hide some errors they made in servicing DC. Noone take to them this bold action. Not soviets, not finns (never hear about finnish "resistance"). So this was just bad incident.
lupodimare89 wrote: Still speaking about submarines that engaged in fire battles there is the sinking of ShCH-408 in 26 May 1943, i've read many reports that speak of "small German crafts" but i've not understood who they were and if they got damages (i've seen an amazing soviet art that show a sort of "last stand fight", possibly a bit exageratted but still fascinating ^^)
I've think this is already well-known... This was german MFP's.

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Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)

Post by igorr » 22 Mar 2013 16:55

lupodimare89 wrote: Still speaking about submarines that engaged in fire battles there is the sinking of ShCH-408 in 26 May 1943, i've read many reports that speak of "small German crafts" but i've not understood who they were and if they got damages (i've seen an amazing soviet art that show a sort of "last stand fight", possibly a bit exageratted but still fascinating ^^)
This sub was sunk 22.5.43 in battle with german MFP's - F.189/188/191. Under storng fire she went dows and never surfaced again. Finnish minelayer RUOTSINSALMI make some DC-runs aver place when sub disappaeared.
lupodimare89 wrote: 5 September 1943 the TK-94 against "minesweepers" (possibly 2 sinking claimed), but reported to have suffered damages and at least 2 wia
TKA Nr 94 attacked "convoy" (2 M/S, 3 self-propelled barges, 3 watch-boats). After firing one torpedo, TKA claimed one M/S sunk. No mention about losses and even hits on soviet boat. In reality he attacks M.16/18/29 and two SAT on position. Germans even didn't see torpedo.
lupodimare89 wrote: ? November 1943 (no mention about exact day)
Soviet MTBs vs "8 enemy ships that approached to trawlers. 6 enemy ships were claimed sunk and 2 damaged" (<< thinks it's one of the largest overclaim, but i could have read bad)
2.11.43 - when TKA's defended soviet minesweepers. There was two separated attacks, in first 5 TKA fired 9 torpedoes and claimed 2 M/S and one patrol boat sunk, one M/S burned and damaged. Soviets side lost TKA Nrs. 146 and 106. In second attack 3 more TKA attacked 5 enemy ships and claimed 2 M/S sunk and one damaged, all in all 5 sunk and 2 damaged. Their vis-a-vis was minesweepers from 25 MS-Fl. I don't know exact quantity, most probable 3. May be some other german ships - their claimed 3 destroyed soviet TKA for sure and 1 probable. No damage, no losses in KTB FdM Ost. Germans has fired almost all their munition.
lupodimare89 wrote: And at this i could add the ultimate fate of V-5713, damaged in battle by Soviet gunships (Volga or Zeya) at 21 November 1944. It could be very interesting reading about german documents if the ship was repaired in the next months or if remained out of service until the end of the war.
This boat was already "einsatzbereit" in the end of December, according to KTB FdM.

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Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)

Post by Juha Tompuri » 22 Mar 2013 19:14

igorr wrote:
lupodimare89 wrote: The sinking of the Finnish escort Aura-II on 13/Jan/40
If i'm right all the Finnish sources mention that the ship was sunk because of self-detonation of depth charge.
Town.ural mention that submarine ShCh-324 reported to have surfaced and fired shells, while Finnish counter-report that the submarine surfaced for little and did not fire.
Official Chronicle say, that sub only showed their tower and quickly sumberged. No firings. I will see what Morozov wrote in his book abouts "Shchuka"'s.
Upd: Well, he wrote that DC exploded in AURA's DC-thrower. Sub don't uwe their gun.
Yes.
Finnish sources mention that after firing torpedoes(2), the bow of the submarine raised above the surface for short period of time (perhaps because the the submarine became lighter after releasing the torpedoes) and then quickly disappeared below the surface.

igorr wrote:
lupodimare89 wrote: 14 September 1941
It's not strictly a naval engagement, but many sources report that in Helsinki were sunk by sabotage the German minesweepers R-60, R-61 and R-62 with losses of 61 killed among personal. There is some more data about this operation? It was done by some Finnish communist underground groups or by Soviet operatives?
(and if it was done by soviet action it could be interesting to see if was done by agents alreadi in Helsinki or by divers landed by submarine or boat)
Somewhere here on this site already was discussion about this. Maybe Juha remember exactly where, he remember everything.
He-he:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 1&t=196464

Regards, Juha

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Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)

Post by BarSeek » 22 Mar 2013 19:30

lupodimare89 wrote:Location and date are very very close to the clash of 1/September/1942. When MO-201, MO-213 and MO-215 fought against MAS-529 (there was damage on the MAS, but i've read no mention to causalities in italian sites, and not all the sources report about damages)
A bullet from heavy machine gun of MO damaged water pipe of MAS engine cooling system so one one of the engines stopped (I guess jammed due to overheating). According to report of Lt. Ercolessi dated September 3rd the engine was beyond repair in their conditions and had to be replaced with a new one. In Detachment Kijanen war diary it was written that MAS 528 needed a new engine but it looks a mistake since Lt. Ercolessi was commander of MAS 529 these days.

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Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)

Post by lupodimare89 » 24 Mar 2013 20:38

Official Chronicle say, that sub only showed their tower and quickly sumberged. No firings. I will see what Morozov wrote in his book abouts "Shchuka"'s.
Upd: Well, he wrote that DC exploded in AURA's DC-thrower. Sub don't uwe their gun.
Oh ok, it seemed me a bit an open debate because town.ru reported it as something of unsure, and if war diaries are mentioned, it's a bit strange that they report a thing as surfacing and firing shells, if this was false...
Because IF there is an official war diary of the submarine with detail of the mission that say this, we should consider the event as probable. It's a bit strange that a claims on the ShCh surfacing and firing was false, even if mentioning that the diaries said it was true.
Somewhere here on this site already was discussion about this. Maybe Juha remember exactly where, he remember everything.
I've ready detailed german account about this case. Sabotage aspect researched very deep, but there were no strong proofs for this version. Seems like germans wants to hide some errors they made in servicing DC. Noone take to them this bold action. Not soviets, not finns (never hear about finnish "resistance"). So this was just bad incident.
I've read the link mentioned above,
If there is no record on official Soviet document this leads only two possibility:
1) Accidental explosion
2) non-soviet sabotage. More then "finnish resistance", if i'm right there was that pro-Soviet finnish politician that was in Moscow. The event occurred in Helsinki and its possible that in the capital there was a small group of followers/finnish communists that could have carried the sabotage. Surely Finnish users could know more.
(maybe they were not a true "resistence" but a small circle involved in some kind of underground propaganda or espionage).
Considering the event occured into the capital, there are old journals of the time that could have mentioned the explosion?
After all the number of dead reported was large and this could means that there was a big explosion.
Thinking at the accidental cause the first thing that could be (to be so powerful) is an accidental explosion of depth charges that ignited the others but... the boats where in harbour. It's possible that the boats had carried a patrol and launched some depth charges? And then maybe a charge was forgotten still armed on the boat?
It's an unlikely possibilities due an human error, but it could be interesting think about it.

Mentioning Soviet sabotaging enemies vessels, i've read in that forum you linked, igor, about an old soviet claim of "Italian MAS destroyed by ROR in 1943", now... even if i'm the first to admit that our claims on Ladoga Lake and Black Sea were large overclaims, in italian sites it's pretty clear that no vessel was deployed in 1943. (at least, i've not read about it...)
A bullet from heavy machine gun of MO damaged water pipe of MAS engine cooling system so one one of the engines stopped (I guess jammed due to overheating). According to report of Lt. Ercolessi dated September 3rd the engine was beyond repair in their conditions and had to be replaced with a new one. In Detachment Kijanen war diary it was written that MAS 528 needed a new engine but it looks a mistake since Lt. Ercolessi was commander of MAS 529 these days.
True true, some serious italian sites mention this.
The majority that make short reports of the events in Black Sea and Ladoga make simply a list of heroic victories (almost all overclaim) and few mention about loss or damages.
But the damage is confirmed,
As the one on MAS-527, that i've the pleasure the read the report of the son of a man aboard.

Another thing i've found in that russian site it's an interesting detail of Morozov that say that it was the destroyer Yakov Sverdlov to damage the Finnish MTB Vinha, and not the Skoryi as mentioned in the Finnish site.

igorr
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Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)

Post by igorr » 25 Mar 2013 05:08

lupodimare89 wrote: Oh ok, it seemed me a bit an open debate because town.ru reported it as something of unsure, and if war diaries are mentioned, it's a bit strange that they report a thing as surfacing and firing shells, if this was false...
Because IF there is an official war diary of the submarine with detail of the mission that say this, we should consider the event as probable. It's a bit strange that a claims on the ShCh surfacing and firing was false, even if mentioning that the diaries said it was true.
There is no mention about firing in official documents about subs war patrol. "Official soviet version" mentioned on town.ural.ru most probable some post-war soviet book (like Dmitriev). Man who manned town.ural.ru never see any real soviet documens. All data he site posses is from books or directly from Morozov.

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