Soviet Naval Battles

Discussions on all aspects of the USSR, from the Russian Civil War till the end of the Great Patriotic War and the war against Japan. Hosted by Art.
Felix C
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Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)

Post by Felix C » 25 Mar 2013 15:51

When looking at Soviet sources for the Great Patriotic War what time frame do you use to demarcate between impartial or politicized printed works?

For example, the Achkasov and Pavolich work http://www.amazon.com/Soviet-Naval-Oper ... 0870216732 is a good read but one would have to read a different book to achieve balance regarding German operations and responses. This is the USNI 1981 reprint of the 1973 Soviet Staff study.

igorr
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Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)

Post by igorr » 25 Mar 2013 16:22

Actually, all books before 1990 and some books after that year can't give you clear view even from soviet side. There was too many bitter defeats and drawbacks in war to say about it freely. Soviet historians must wrote about victories or not wrote at all. Some little mentions about minor failures can be revealed only to underline many more victories.
There was some secret works about real things for use only in military scholls.

Felix C
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Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)

Post by Felix C » 25 Mar 2013 18:56

How about memoirs? How trustworthy? I am thinking of Kuznetsov's Na Dalekom Meridiane or Victor Korzh's Red Star Under the Baltic: A Soviet Submariner's Personal Account 1941-1945 both of which were published 40+years ago.

Art
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Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)

Post by Art » 25 Mar 2013 19:34

Felix C wrote: For example, the Achkasov and Pavolich work http://www.amazon.com/Soviet-Naval-Oper ... 0870216732 is a good read.
From my layman point of view that is a good book as far as general analysis is concerned.

igorr
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Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)

Post by igorr » 25 Mar 2013 21:50

Felix C wrote:How about memoirs? How trustworthy? I am thinking of Kuznetsov's Na Dalekom Meridiane or Victor Korzh's Red Star Under the Baltic: A Soviet Submariner's Personal Account 1941-1945 both of which were published 40+years ago.
Kuznetsov's memoirs is best ine from soviet admirals work. But he has some things he didn't put on paper in times before end of 1980's. Comparing to memoirs of Tribuz or Golovko, still, Kuznetsov say more truthfully.
Didn't read Korzh's book. But i think there is interesting details about everyday life of soviet submariners, some facts about war in soviet naval bases (air raids, art. bombardsments, heavy life in blocked Leningrad. But, if you wish to know real facts about soviet submarine warfire, you need to read contemporary works, preferably Morozov.

Felix C
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Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)

Post by Felix C » 25 Mar 2013 22:28

What I noticed about Korzh's book is the similarity of experiences shared by submarine commanders in WW2 who sailed in older boat designs. It reads truthful for that reason in terms of the mechanics of the experience.

If you do not mind and in line with the OP's inquiry...What would be a good one or two volume work to read on Soviet Naval Operations in WW2. I mean a post-1990s title which is a continuation to the Achkasov and Pavolich work referenced above? Somthing which reveals the Good,Bad,& Ugly.

If you and the OP as well can grant me a bit of patience, what would also be required contemporary reading on Soviet and White naval operations in the Civil War?

igorr
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Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)

Post by igorr » 26 Mar 2013 03:12

Alas, there is no such contemporary book about soviet naval war at whole. Maybe some close came prof. Platonov who wrote "Tragedies of Finnish Gulf" (http://www.ozon.ru/context/detail/id/5239588/) about war in Baltic and "Fight for dominancy on Black sea" (http://www.ozon.ru/context/detail/id/5523879/). Of course both in russian and not translated to other languages.
Best works for entire campaigns on all theatres was made only for submarines and naval torpedo-bombers. Both work by Miroslav Morozov who wish made same for MTB and naval shturmovik's units.

lupodimare89
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Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)

Post by lupodimare89 » 26 Mar 2013 17:00

So sad i will can never read them...

However, i'm slowly working on exploring that forum with some of your posts igorr, i've found lots of interesting stuff. I'm working on some small questions but are mainly detail about the translations of your dialoges (i will copy the lines in russian).

Speaking about the books... the important thing i think it's not risk to fall on the directly opposite part (scrapping all what was wrote in older books, even if about some events there are unclear data or not much detailed from German or other sources).

However i don't think that there is the need to invent something, reading some Morozov posts it's clear that many engagement were full of overclaim, but some were not ... (with tactical German failures and moderate Soviet successes... nothing of big, but considering the small-scale of this kind of fights, it's not so bad)
(i'm also enlarging the small list of ships/boats that were directly hit/damaged by soviet gunfire... i've read there about some very interesting fights).

Vaeltaja
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Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)

Post by Vaeltaja » 30 Mar 2013 10:21

If you are looking for more examples of overclaims, see http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 9&t=163238

Soviets MTBs tried repeatedly to torpedo this: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Kallbadan.jpg

lupodimare89
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Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)

Post by lupodimare89 » 30 Mar 2013 15:16

Vaeltaja wrote:If you are looking for more examples of overclaims
Thanks for further links ^^ Even if i'm actually searching for the opposite (the confirmed)

Now, i've finished to check that interesting topic about MO and TK boats on Tsushima.
There are other topics on that forum that engage in detail about naval clashes in Baltic? (as ever i'm expecially interested about gunfire engagement, and exchange of damage (even if very light) by the ships and boats involved).

About that topic on Tsushima site , i've found them very interesting, and however some new questions are raised (some about translation), here a list:

19 July 1941
It's clear that the destroyer Skoryi (as wrote by Finnish source) was not responsable for the damage on the MTB Vinha.
However i've read a mixed thing on the discussion, with Morozov first telling that the responsbale was the destroyer Yakov Sverdlov, then that it was the minesweeper Tszcz-202. Then he wrote that he mixed the date with the engagement with German/Finnish boats:
Со свой стороны на 90% могу утверждать, что финские ТКА вели бой с БТЩ Т-202, а не с каким не эсминцем.
Понимаю, что достаю, но другого выхода у меня нет. Интересует отчет о постановке "Муола" и действиях ТКА в ночь на 21 июля (сообщения 07.00 и 09.35)
В прошлый раз основным подозреваемым был Яков Свердлов - Вы приводили ссылку на Журнал надводного направления штаба КБФ, а Т-202 привязывался к немцам (столкновение с ним отмечено в КТВ начальника миноносцев).
С уважением,
Там была ошибка в нашем журнале надводного направления. Почему-то два раза подряд идет 19 июля и затем до 22-го все время идет сдвижка на один день. Фактически, как я понял, Яков Свердлов воевал с немцами на следующую ночь с 20 на 21 июля, когда те ставили заграждение Д.8.
По сути: как я понял, боевое столкновение имело место около 2-3 ч ночи 20 июля. Судя по журналу надводного направления штаба КБФ, огонь вел "Яков Свердлов", находившийся в поддержке дозора в 15 милях сев. м. Юминданина. Других подробностей мне найти не удалось.
Отписал по боям 19/20 июля и 20/21 июля в ту ветку. Вроде все стало на свои места. У всех, кого невольно ввел в заблуждение, прошу пардона :)
From the rough translation i've not understood who engaged the Finnish and who engaged the Germans. And also i've found few detail about the engagement against the Germans.


24 July 1941
I've understood few of the attempted Finnish attack at Hanko Convoy, with VMV and MTBs that first said to have seen no attack, than that they were pursued by a destroyer. While soviet source mention the attack of two MO the first time.

16 September 1942
16.09 00.25 2-я флотилия VMV (-10, -17, -9 и -8) и ТКА Васама встретили 2 русских СКА, которые были обстреляны. Одно достоверное попадание из 40 мм Бофорса. На Васама неисправен Мадсен. Враги отошли по направлению к Лавенсари.
Not understood what it say about the "40mm bofors" because then say of Madsen defective. From my translation it seems that an undefinied unit got an hit from the Bofors (not understood if Soviet or Finnish)

27 September 1942
About the engagement of two MO and Finnish boats, i've not understood the comment.
Любопытно что финны участвующие в нем сторожевые катера VMV 8,10,11,7 и торпедный катер "Vasama", по моему мнению это сделали не с проста. Судя по всему их задача завязать бой с катерами у острова Нерва и заставить нас оттянуть силы на себя, на следующую ночь напасть из пролива Бьёркзунд, с 28 на 29 сентября они попытались уничтожить Шепелевский маяк, но им этого не дал дозор МО-105 и МО-107. По такому же сценарию действовали они еще 15 и 16 сентября когда немцы ставили мины и потеряли R-66.
15.09 2-я флотилия СКА, а также флотилия ТКА в 02.00 во время патрульного выходы в квадрате 143с49 встретили 2 вражеских СКА, которых обстреляли с дистанции 400-500 м. Как VMV, так и ТКА достигли нескольких попаданий, однако пожара не вызвавших. Враги ушли в направлении Лавенсари.
16.09 00.25 2-я флотилия СКА, а также Васама встретили в квадрате 143d93 два вражеских СКА, которых обстреляли. Один надёжный 40/60 В добился попаданий. На Васама 20/60 М вышел из строя. Враг отступил в направлении Лавенсари.27.09 2-я флотилия СКА и флотилия ТКА патрулировали в направлении Лавенсари, где VMV вступили в огневой контакт с двумя вражескими ТКА. Бой продолжался в течение короткого промежутка времени и результаты не наблюдались.
First mention a previous event with the lost of the German R-66 (when? how?) then say about "several hits" but i've not understood if on Finnish or Soviet, and which units were hit.

29 September 1942
Engagement of MO vs Finnish Boats
Однако диверсия планировалась нехилая, судя по количеству людей, в ней задействованных...
А вот описание пропущенных дней, взята из сводок штаба флота (флотильный ЖБД слишком тяжёл для работы, оттуда взял только названия катеров):
6.08 ТКА Нуоли и Райю патрулировали с 03.25 с точки А82294. В заливе Лавенсари и Пенинсаари на поверхности туман. За пределами не замечено кораблей. На обратном пути севернее замечены 2 дозорных СКА, которые пытались помешать возвращению катеров. Катера изменили курс и благодаря дождю им удалось оторваться от СКА.
13.08 Нуоли, Винха и Райю обнаружили в А82264 2 СКА, которые отошли по прибытии СКА? ТКА вернулись назад, около Хуовари были обстреляны нашими СКА внешнего дозора, один человек ранен.
По 24 октября ничего особенного не нашёл (смотрел везде).
С уважением,
29/30.09
I've not understood the mention to a wounded, on Finnish or Soviet boat? I don't thik to have read details of light/splinter damage that may be related with the wounded.

21 October 1942
Clash between Soviet patrols and FInnish MTBs
1-я флотилия ТКА ожидала вражеский конвой между Пенинсаари и Сескаром. 1-я группа вступила в огневой бой с местным вражеским охранением, состоящим из 4 СКА. Оторвавшись, группа отошла к северу от Сескара, где не могла установить контакта с конвоем. Дозорные СКА вели сильную перестрелку между собой.
В 03.20 2-я группа атаковала конвой, выстрелив 2 торпеды - одну по буксиру и одну по барже с дистанции 500-600 м без видимого результата.
J2, производя маневр уклонения, столкнулся с Т1. J2 получил пробоину 50х50 см слева в носу, Т1 дыру справа посередине длиной 2-3 м. В момент столкновения машины на обоих катерах остановились.
Катера вернулись своим ходом в базу, Т1 ремонтируется в Турку, J2 в Выборге.
It's report of a collision between two Finnish boats, right?

31 May 1943
Against a collission report of two Finnish MTBs : Jyske and Vihuri.
But i've read in the talk also that Jyske was damaged (with no mention to collision, so during the fight?) and Vihuri run aground,
30.05 4 ТКА (Hyrsky, Hirmu, Jyske, Vihuri) и 4 VMV (8, 9, 10 и 11) в 23.40 атаковали следовавший в западном направлении конвой. Встречены 20 СКА эскорта. Перестрелка до 00.15, израсходовано ок. 1000 снарядов. Jyske и Vihuri получили какие-то повреждения, но по-моему Vihuri выскочил на мель. В общем, в повреждениях я не силён.
С уважением,
P.S. Уважаемый Мирослав Эдуардович, большое спасибо за документы. А в финском архиве ЖБД 1-й группы 2-й флотилии СКА за 1943 к сожалению нет.
Here also http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 1&t=173611 was wrote that the two MTBs collided, but a third received hits, who was this third unit?

19 August 1943
During a fight between Soviet and Finnish boats, there is this "AV-138" (minesweeper-boat?) that is said to have "collided" with Soviet unit. The engagement was so close-range to lead an accidental collission? Or it was a ramming?
And there were consequences?
По 1943 году что-то нашёл только по 19.08 - VMV-8, 9, 11, 17 и Васама, прикрывавшие быстроходный тральщик? AV-138, имели столкновение с 2 нашими СКА, как раз в районе банки Грекова. Правда, точного времени нет, а в табличке, ссылка на которую куда-то пропала (если нужно, выложу снова), этот бой указан как 19-20.08.
30 August 1943
Again a thing from our forum
During the last attempt to bring the mines in the Channel Kronstadt using speedboats attack (KM – class), they saw an Soviet patrol-boat and attacked him, opened fire with machine guns and artillery and drove him back (56 - battle took place at night on 8/31/1943, the German mine-layers fought against KATShsh № “605" [type KM-2] armed with 1 x 7.62 mm machine gun. Later the Soviet boat was destroyed with hand grenades.).
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 1&t=173611
What happened during the first engagement?
And what were these "KM boats" that i've already heard as related to the destruction of one on them on Peipus Lake by a soviet gunboat?

26 May 1944
What i was thinking to be a minor clash, turned to be very interesting, the MO-302 that attacked by Germn S-boats, with help of other two units that manage to push back the germans inflicting damages.
Во 2-ю группу входили ТКА-97, 114, 91 и 135. ТКА-97 неслабо досталось - прямое попадание в рубку, пожар в ней, 3 убитых, ранен радист, заклинен руль, вышел из строя один из компасов - результат ведения боя на дистанции ок. 50 метров! Попадание 45-мм снарядом получил и ТКА-114, но на нем оно не имело таких феерических последствий.
20 June 1944
During the first engagament at Narva island.
Apart for the large operation of Soviet bots against the two German T-30 and T-31 (with the loss of the last one), there is a report that at the same time but at "Valeste" (i read on the opposite part of the island, it's right?) Soviet TK fought against M-15, M-17, M-30, F-25, M-1709, AF-49. There are more details/results? Could this considered part of the same German operation?

15 July 1944
The german site uboat.net mention the gunfire fight of the submarine U-679 against soviet MO-104, MO-105, TK-47 and TK-57, with the last one damaged.
But i've read nothing on damage on the Soviet boat in the discussion, instead the U-679 seems to have got some damage (a single hit of 45mm, so by one of the MO). The old soviet literature spoke about killed, but it's seems that there were however some wounded, but i've not understood if "3" or "8"
ТКА-57 выпустил две одиночных торпеды, от которых U-бот уклонился, а «МОшки» обстреляли противника артиллерийским огнем. В ходе быстротечного боя лодка получила небольшие повреждения (по некоторым данным в нее попал один 45-мм снаряд), восемь членов ее экипажа получили ранения. Из-за перегрева и разрыва стволов вышло из строя все автоматические пушки за исключением одной 20-мм. Лишь дача полного хода и своевременный разворот на обратный курс под защиту береговых батарей спасли подлодку от еще больших повреждений, а возможно, и гибели. Ремонт подлодки в Таллине занял четыре дня".
16 July 1944
About the second battle of Narva island.
It's a bit unclear to what happened: the German torpedo boats in some german/western literature said that have "sunk a minesweeper", sometimes said to be the Tszcz-218, other say it was damaged. Morozov wrote that the torpedo boat Tucha and the Tszcz-211 and Tszcz-217 counter-attacked and (i think) should have got no damage at all.
Спустя три минуты к ней присоединились «Туча» и два тральщика, находившиеся в тот момент в 105 кбт от миноносцев и потому с них не замеченные. На этот раз огонь русских показался немцам довольно точным. К тому же на Т-8 после двух выстрелов вышло из строя орудие, а на Т-10 из-за разрыва трубок – два котла. Узнав об этом, Кифер счел за благо отойти в шхеры. В течение шести минут сторожевик «Туча» и тральщики израсходовали 21 снаряд главного калибра и прекратили огонь из-за слишком большой дистанции. Преследовать противника они не могли, поскольку перед этим получили приказ держаться южнее Нервы в связи с направлением в район двух групп наших штурмовиков, которые, правда, над местом боя так и не появились.
I've read also that the Germans neither got damage, what's say about the T-8 and T-10 in the text?
The statement exclude possible light/near-misses/splinter damages or they're included? (as i said, for gunfire action, i try to search also for the most light damage that could have been inflicted/suffered in battle).
This engagement is very interesting to me because it's the ONLY ONE with German torpedo-boats units that faced a Soviet unit of same kind (even if smaller and used mainly as patrol). And it should be effectively the naval engagement in Baltic with the two largest warships involved in the fight on both sides. (excluding so when destroyers faced smaller boats). Also from the whole describtion of the engagement it seems to me again a local Soviet success (as the previous one in Narva, both with a general German failure)
However it's also unclear to me how the discussion report the presence of Finnish support boats that took not part at the operation, however the same day MO-104 reported to have fought against something, and in the text was wrote that MTBs T-3 and J-4 were towing something.

1 September 1944
The fire of the MO-312 was close in time or related as action wiht the loss of the German S-80 due mines?
THe S-boats were retreating after the failed attempt to destroy the submarine U-250 that was going to be recovered by Soviets, and i've read that S-80 sunk on mines, there are details about when and how the MO-312 attacked?
Кстати, S.80 подорвался аж 3 раза, но при этом командира и б.ч. экипажа смогли спасти.
18 November 1944
During the first engagement of Sorve Cape, i've read in German sources that also the Soviet gunboats Volga was damaged by gunfire, and that's not confirmed in what i've read on the fourm. There are more data?
(damages on that day were TK-801 by German gunfire, S-68 by Soviet gunfire, S-116 by Soviet aircraft, Tszcz-207 by German gunfire).

I undestood almost NOTHING of the long discussion of the event of 9 May 1945
Of a soviet group of MO crafts that attacked/sunk/captured some tugboats.

igorr
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Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)

Post by igorr » 03 Apr 2013 06:17

lupodimare89 wrote: 19 July 1941
It's clear that the destroyer Skoryi (as wrote by Finnish source) was not responsable for the damage on the MTB Vinha.
However i've read a mixed thing on the discussion, with Morozov first telling that the responsbale was the destroyer Yakov Sverdlov, then that it was the minesweeper Tszcz-202. Then he wrote that he mixed the date with the engagement with German/Finnish boats:
It was T-202, and destroyer has fight with germans.
24 July 1941
I've understood few of the attempted Finnish attack at Hanko Convoy, with VMV and MTBs that first said to have seen no attack, than that they were pursued by a destroyer. While soviet source mention the attack of two MO the first time.
There was some error in one afterwar issue. No real clash at that day. Finns made sorties but see no target. Soviets cutters see enemy but not engaged them.
16 September 1942
Not understood what it say about the "40mm bofors" because then say of Madsen defective. From my translation it seems that an undefinied unit got an hit from the Bofors (not understood if Soviet or Finnish)
Finns claimed that they hit soviet cutter with Bofors. This cannon was mounted on VMV's if i remember this correctly. Madsen was on MTB VASAMA
27 September 1942
About the engagement of two MO and Finnish boats, i've not understood the comment.
...
First mention a previous event with the lost of the German R-66 (when? how?) then say about "several hits" but i've not understood if on Finnish or Soviet, and which units were hit.
R.66 was lost on mine 15.9.41.
Then it is said about already mentioned clash on 16.9.41 when one 40-mm hit from finnish cutters was observed.
As to 27.9.41, finns has little fire contact with 2 soviet TKA, without result.
29 September 1942
Engagement of MO vs Finnish Boats
...
I've not understood the mention to a wounded, on Finnish or Soviet boat? I don't thik to have read details of light/splinter damage that may be related with the wounded.
Actually this is story about another days (6 and 13.08). No clashes 6th and 13th short fight with 2 MO near Huovari, one wounded from finnish side (no data exactly from which MTB).
21 October 1942
...
It's report of a collision between two Finnish boats, right?
Yes.
31 May 1943
Against a collission report of two Finnish MTBs : Jyske and Vihuri.
But i've read in the talk also that Jyske was damaged (with no mention to collision, so during the fight?) and Vihuri run aground,
....
Here also http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 1&t=173611 was wrote that the two MTBs collided, but a third received hits, who was this third unit?
Savera wrote that this two MTB was damaged but he personally think that Vihuri grounded. He can't translate description of damages from finnish. You may ask our friends here.
19 August 1943
During a fight between Soviet and Finnish boats, there is this "AV-138" (minesweeper-boat?) that is said to have "collided" with Soviet unit. The engagement was so close-range to lead an accidental collission? Or it was a ramming?
And there were consequences?
In this case words "имели столкновение" means just engaging, not phisical contact. AV-138 translated as "fast minesweeper", i don't know what ship it was.
30 August 1943
Again a thing from our forum
During the last attempt to bring the mines in the Channel Kronstadt using speedboats attack (KM – class), they saw an Soviet patrol-boat and attacked him, opened fire with machine guns and artillery and drove him back (56 - battle took place at night on 8/31/1943, the German mine-layers fought against KATShsh № “605" [type KM-2] armed with 1 x 7.62 mm machine gun. Later the Soviet boat was destroyed with hand grenades.).
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 1&t=173611
What happened during the first engagement?
And what were these "KM boats" that i've already heard as related to the destruction of one on them on Peipus Lake by a soviet gunboat?
KM= Kusten-Minenleger, look at Groener band 2, seite 140, or search Internet. Soviet KM-2 boats - little cutters 7 t displacement.
Don't understand question about first angagement.
15 July 1944
The german site uboat.net mention the gunfire fight of the submarine U-679 against soviet MO-104, MO-105, TK-47 and TK-57, with the last one damaged.
But i've read nothing on damage on the Soviet boat in the discussion, instead the U-679 seems to have got some damage (a single hit of 45mm, so by one of the MO). The old soviet literature spoke about killed, but it's seems that there were however some wounded, but i've not understood if "3" or "8"
There was no hits in soviet ships. Sub received 5 hits (tower, outer tank, barrel of 37-mm and both 20-mm). Firstly boat reported 3 light wounded, then 8 wounded.
16 July 1944
About the second battle of Narva island.
It's a bit unclear to what happened: the German torpedo boats in some german/western literature said that have "sunk a minesweeper", sometimes said to be the Tszcz-218, other say it was damaged. Morozov wrote that the torpedo boat Tucha and the Tszcz-211 and Tszcz-217 counter-attacked and (i think) should have got no damage at all.
...
I've read also that the Germans neither got damage, what's say about the T-8 and T-10 in the text?
The statement exclude possible light/near-misses/splinter damages or they're included? (as i said, for gunfire action, i try to search also for the most light damage that could have been inflicted/suffered in battle).
No hits in any ships. T.8 has gun failed after 2 shots, T.10 machine malfunction.
1 September 1944
The fire of the MO-312 was close in time or related as action wiht the loss of the German S-80 due mines?
THe S-boats were retreating after the failed attempt to destroy the submarine U-250 that was going to be recovered by Soviets, and i've read that S-80 sunk on mines, there are details about when and how the MO-312 attacked?
1.45 moscow time. No claims from soviet side.
18 November 1944
During the first engagement of Sorve Cape, i've read in German sources that also the Soviet gunboats Volga was damaged by gunfire, and that's not confirmed in what i've read on the fourm. There are more data?
(damages on that day were TK-801 by German gunfire, S-68 by Soviet gunfire, S-116 by Soviet aircraft, Tszcz-207 by German gunfire).
S.68 received some hits 12.7-mm, doing very little damage. Later S.68 was damaged additionally by La-5 fighters and Il-2's.
VOLGA was not damaged. TKA-801 first received 29 small hits, then collided with TKA-807, then run with screws through rocks. TKA-807 grounded, all this after gunfight with germans with M.328 in head.

Vaeltaja
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Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)

Post by Vaeltaja » 03 Apr 2013 09:58

21 October 1942 <- can not have happened in 1942. The text section refers to T and J type MTBs which were not available for the Finns until 1943. It appears to have taken place 21 October 1943.

31 May 1943 - Two Finnish MTBs collided, Vihuri receiving more damage, 1 m^2 hole to its deck above the waterline, Jyske with minor damage. Both boats were able to operate at full power after the collision (and also able ot return to base). Meanwhile MTB Hyrsky suffered from broken clutch (or switch, 'kytkin' could refer to either) which jammed one of its engines to full ahead and other to full reverse throttle. Leaving the boat circling which enabled Soviet patrol boats to close in. Finnish fire kept Soviet boats at bay and gave enough time for Hyrsky to solve the problem. Several hits to Soviet boats were observed (effect it rather doubtful, H type boats carried just 20 mm Madsen) while Hyrsky was hit to the smoke acid container.

lupodimare89
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Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)

Post by lupodimare89 » 03 Apr 2013 10:34

Thank you igorr ! Your help is very welcome, and i'm sorry if i keep busy with questions ... but there are so few online material in english about this..
And thank you Vaeltaja ^^ i edited this my new post after your reply.

Some few other questions.
It was T-202, and destroyer has fight with germans.
There are details of the germans units involved against the Yakov Sverdlov? damages or causalities on both sides?

24 July 1941 MO-501, MO-503 and MO-107 fired against enemy MTBs
(don't remember if i've already wrote that to you!) I've nothing on identity of MTBs (Finnish or Germans, ecc..)

Evacuation of Tallin
There are no more details about S-26, S-27, S-39, S-40 and S-41 vs leader destroyer Tallin?
German MTBs did reported some kind of light/splinter damages?

25 August 1942
It's a pity that there is no detail on soviet side of the capture of the small finnish motorboat E-32, expecially the identity of the MO

20 September 1942
I've read that TK-54 was run aground (lost?) but it was related with the fight against german M-15 and UJ-1207 ?

Battle of Suho
I've failed to find more detailed account on German side: expecially about the damages suffered during the retreat. It was said that "splinter damages" were caused (probably) by the fire of gunboats Bira and Selemdzha (also i've read both that they were lightly damaged... or that the only Selemdzha was damaged). However it's unclear because then they wrote later that the "hospital-ferry" was towed because "immobilized", but by what? There is no mention to a successful Soviet air strike, and this could lead the gunboats's fire as possible cause.

20 June 1943
MO-106 reported to have fought against enemy boats.
Still i've not found data

Also still a big question mark for the clash on 20June 1944 at Valeste.
It was part of Operation Drosselfang? Exactly what happened?

Same thing for Operation Buchenwald on 16 July 1944. Clashes with MO-104 and something else..
Possible involvment of Finnish.

And for the two clashes at Sorve (18 and 21 November 1944)
The only German damages by gunfire were the light on S-68 and the heavy on V-5713?
Nothing else was reported on minesweeper? (even light or splinter)

It's still a bit unclear to me how in the clash of 27 March 1944 seems to have been no damage (neither splinter or light) on the three German MTBs (S-65, S-69 and S-81) with 2 TK sunk and the other 4 all damaged.


---------------------


Also more recently i've found:

14/09/43
I've found the TK-95 lost due German artillery (ships?) fire, i've found no other data.

30/10/43
I've found also TK-75 and TK-134 lost again by German gunfire.

5/06/44
Also TK-46 (of D-3 class) lost due gunfire.

30/07/44
Lost TK-161 again by gunfire?

30/10/44
Lost TK-171 OR TK-175 by German minesweeper fire?

-------------------

And a pair of interesting things:

Apart for the already mentioned interception of a convoy of tugs by Soviet MO in 9 May 1945
And never who were exactly the members of the convoy. There were still germans active at that time at Ventspils??
Seems a bit strange to me. But i've read that F-838 barge was involved (a military ship so..)

Then i've found a whole topic on tsushima about a fight between a pair of Soviet CKA gunboats on 26 April 1945 at Pillau against German barges or landing crafts. It has been wrote there that one German barge was sunk and another set on fire. I've found not clear confirmation but from the text of the long discussion it seemed a pretty sure event.
What it was attacked exactly? A pair of self-propelled nameless pontoons?
Exactly who carried the attack?
I've searched on the large database of MFP and the only military barge lost that day
F-248. Listed as lost at Hela by aircraft after having operated in that area
F-379. Same thing
F-266. Sunk in that month for unclear reason and unknown location.

Vaeltaja
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Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)

Post by Vaeltaja » 03 Apr 2013 10:45

lupodimare89 wrote:Battle of Suho
I've failed to find more detailed account on German side: expecially about the damages suffered during the retreat. It was said that "splinter damages" were caused (probably) by the fire of gunboats Bira and Selemdzha (also i've read both that they were lightly damaged... or that the only Selemdzha was damaged). However it's unclear because then they wrote later that the "hospital-ferry" was towed because "immobilized", but by what? There is no mention to a successful Soviet air strike, and this could lead the gunboats's fire as possible cause.
Keep in mind that the engines of the German vessels on Ladoga (both on Siebel ferries and on KM-boats) were not exactly of the most reliable sort. Just because its engines failed does not necessitate that it would have been hit, as the case in point above with Hyrsky shows.

lupodimare89
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Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)

Post by lupodimare89 » 03 Apr 2013 10:55

I know but the German account that i read translated in russian it's not exactly exhaustive.
Don't mention clearly air raids (while soviet claimed to have done many).
Speak of undefined "splinter damages" and then say that T-6 had engine problems and remained behind, together the hospital-ferry that was towed by T-4 (but don't mention if the hospital ferry had them too, it only said immobilized). It was at that time that there was the TK-61 and TK-81 attack.
And THEN then loss of the SF-21 that returned to Suho to finish the last survived gun.

So... it's a bit unclear and messed because the events should have been:
1) Landing, losses due running aground and artillery damage on SF-26
2) Retreat
3) Engagement from 6Km to 12Km with Soviet gunboats.
4) attempt of TK to attack the slower German units
5) SF-21 sail back (??) to bomb the survived gun, is hit by artillery and then finished by other germans

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