Soviet Naval Battles

[Ruotsinsalmi]

According to the book "Laivat puuta, miehet rautaa" (Wooden ships, men of iron) by Orvo Peuranheimo, Jouko Pirhonen and Kullervo Killinen the finnish MTB:s returned with "couple of splinter holes". No mentions of any needed repairs in this book or in the war diary of the MTB-flotilla. Two of the authors participated the attack. The boats returned to the base at 23:30 and left it to replace the fired torpedoes next morning at 07:00, so there were obviously no serious damages.

Pekka

[Juha Tompuri]

in the war diary of the MTB-flotilla. Two of the authors participated the attack. The boats returned to the base at 23:30 and left it to replace the fired torpedoes next morning at 07:00, so there were obviously no serious damages.

I too just read the war diary: http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=2969279
...with the same conclusions.

Regards, Juha

[Juha Tompuri]

...at evening 1 october 1941 submarine "L-3" ("Л-3") was unsuccessfully attacked by torpedo boats, the Finnish "Sisu" and "Vuoli" at anchor in the bay Suurkyulya (near Gogland). Fortunately, they released a torpedo at the target is not hit and exploded 15 yards from the submarine. "L-3" opened fire on boats. According to the P.D. Grishchenko (Грищенко Петр Денисович - commander of the submarine), one of the shells fired from the submarine fell into the engine room of one of the boats and killed its commander.

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... t#p1655827

Regards, Juha

[lupodimare89]

Thank you all for your replies!
It could have been an interesting element to give a push to the L-3's tally and move it above the current 9 confirmed victories, but with this data it's clearly not enaugh.


Get a further little break from the re-reading of the KTB because i've found what could be another interesting event in Black Sea:

“To avoid any resistance if Belomoretz and Chernomoretz come across Soviet ships in the Black Sea; his crews should surrender the submarine chasers upon request of the Russians”. This was exactly the accident in which the two vessels became involved on 6th September 1944 in the area of Cape Emine where they were boarded by Russian sailors. The Bulgarian crews were arrested while Belomoretz and Chernomoretz were taken back to Bourgas. For three days the Bulgarian sailors remained prisoners of war. Interestingly enough two of the sailors – Stefan Stoichev and Christo Simeonov from Chernomoretz, made an attempt to escape and reach the near-by railway station located at Dolno Ezerovo village but were re-captured by the Russians. On 9th September 1944 the Communist Regime was established in Bulgaria and the crews of the submarine chasers were released15.

Source: http://www.airgroup2000.com/forum/viewt ... p?t=226887

I know (from igor's words) that there could be little/poor knowledge of this specific event considering the late time (basically on the end of naval warfare in Black Sea), but it could be a good interesting element if the seizure occurred on sea (and not just a seizure in harbor) and if occurred some kind of boarding event (even if it was for few days, it appears Soviets considered sailors to be enemy Pows)

[lupodimare89]

After some long delay due study, here some updates of other events in Baltic Sea, June 1942


A curious report on 5 June, about " Unconfirmed reports of “ 8 midget submarines” under construction at Leningrad: 12 to 15 metres long and 2 crew members."
For what i remember, no such units were on active building stage.

As espected, not a word about the minor skirmisesh between Finnish VMV units against Soviets MO occurred on 4 and 6 June (all inconclusive), and 10 June of two Finnish MTBs vs a guard-boat. I've recorded the name of these little interesting ones (having no effect on both sides).
Similarly, same thing for clashes on 12 and 14 June. The German KTB briefly report these without details and giving no claims.


Moving on something of more interesting, i've explored what's a prolonged and detailed report of the loss of "sperrbrecher" MRS-11 Osnabruck, sunk by mine close Reval on 11 June 1942, " south of Mittelgrund through a lane which had not been opened to shipping ".
The reason of such prolonged inquiry is made by the high losses: 84 MIA and 35 WIA (the missing ones are reported dead in another online account).
In following details of 14 and 15 June 1942, it's stated clearly that she was lost on soviet mines, and it's further said that the field was known to the Germans after it was reported on a captured soviet chart on 6 March.
However it's further explained how the captain of the ship wasn't provided with the information of the field, while other ships received it on 9 June.
There is complain regarding the responsability of these actions (but it's also stated that the captain could have acted reckless and was expected to be cautious).

Searching further online i've also found the unit was later recovered and repaired (and lost in 1945), still it's an important victory for who laid the mines.
Online on wlb-stuttgart.de it's stated it was a mine from the field of minelayer Marti.
I will search more for confirmation.

Worth to be said, that a second loss in Reval Bay, on 26 June 1942, when an Estonian sailboat struck a mine and sunk, was immediately confirmed as lost by a German own mine-field.



A final interesting one (that i will ask on tsushima.net), it's the German report of ships sunk or damaged by soviet submarines in this month: recording Ada orthon, Orion, Signe and Argo.

The Swedish "Signe" it's a never-seen-before loss. Listed in no other site or forum.

[igorr]

The Swedish "Signe" it's a never-seen-before loss. Listed in no other site or forum.

No surpise - this is one of previous names of ADA GORTHON. I.e. an error in document.

[lupodimare89]

Thanks ^^

Btw, Morozov can't confirm or deny that post of the bulgarian submarine-chasers, sadly.

I've moved a bit forward for a small event, and basically confirmed from the KTB that the gun-carrier (gunboat), SAT-20 "West", lost 15 September 1943, was sunk by aircraft, not mine (most sources gave no details, but KTB said clearly by aircraft).

[lupodimare89]

Due time needed for study and real life i'm probably going to keep on posting less time (1 or 2 for months), also because we've seen already many of the most important things.

However, completed a re-checking of July 1942 KTB in Baltic.

On 19 July there is a good account of soviet submarine warfare, that basically confirm all, without additions or detractions
(Finnish Argo, Sweedish Ada Gorthon, Margareta, Lulea, German Anna K.Fritzen, Otto Cords, Danish Orion and German Fides
damaged).
They also give the amount of 16,368 GRT sunk (i've calculated 16,364).

Most important thing it's the huge exageration of overclaims of soviet submarines sunk:
11 sunk, 6 other probably sunk, 6 damaged.
While the lost ones were only three: ShCh-405 and M-95 in June and ShCH-317 in July.



There are two entries that could be researched for mines successes:

On 3 July 1942 motor mine sweeper “74” (R-74 ?) was badly damaged, having struck a mine in Tytersaari.
Due location, could have been soviet like the others mentioned.


10 July 1942
German Minefield Seigel XVI was laid in gulf of finland. On the way back, a “Naval barge” struck a mine and had to be beached. A Heavy loss in personal was substained.
Unclear if she struck a mine of the newly laid field or some other field.

[Juha Tompuri]

On 19 July there is a good account of soviet submarine warfare, that basically confirm all, without additions or detractions
(Finnish Argo, Sweedish Ada Gorthon, Margareta, Lulea, German Anna K.Fritzen, Otto Cords, Danish Orion and German Fides
damaged).
They also give the amount of 16,368 GRT sunk (i've calculated 16,364).

By July 19th I've calculated 13463 BRT sunken.

Most important thing it's the huge exageration of overclaims of soviet submarines sunk:

I think the Soviet submariners (with some exeptions) huge overclaims are at least as "important" thing.

Regards, Juha

[lupodimare89]

I think the Soviet submariners (with some exeptions) huge overclaims are at least as "important" thing.

Well... overclaiming of merchants' sunk does not lead (like overclaim of submarines sunk) to a numercal underestimation of the enemy offensive strenght left.
This led to the still sporadic (but present) losses in August and September, before Soviets started suffering more serious losses in october and november.

[Juha Tompuri]

I think the Soviet submariners (with some exeptions) huge overclaims are at least as "important" thing.

Well... overclaiming of merchants' sunk does not lead (like overclaim of submarines sunk) to a numercal underestimation of the enemy offensive strenght left.

True, but the submariners reports (with huge overclaiming - with some exeptions) might have been one reason to continue the submarine operations, even the results were relatively modest, and the kill/loss ratio not that good.
That continuing led to the your mentioned serious losses to the submarine fleet.

On 19 July there is a good account of soviet submarine warfare, that basically confirm all, without additions or detractions
(Finnish Argo, Sweedish Ada Gorthon, Margareta, Lulea, German Anna K.Fritzen, Otto Cords, Danish Orion and German Fides
damaged).
They also give the amount of 16,368 GRT sunk (i've calculated 16,364).

By July 19th I've calculated 13463 BRT sunken.

Orion did not sunk.

Regards, Juha

[lupodimare89]

might have been one reason to continue the submarine operations, even the results were relatively modest, and the kill/loss ratio not that good.
That continuing led to the your mentioned serious losses to the submarine fleet.

I'm not exactly sure that's a so simple reason (or only one reason) (especially considering the events of 1943, with attempts to operate and only when losses get really heavy with no result it was stopped; at this point one could also considering the different assessments of what is considered acceptable losses at the time, and what was not), and in every case that's not exactly the matter of my post.

I'm simply checking the german Ktb, about what they write.


Speaking of more important stuff

Orion did not sunk.

And this is also the case, (also Fides didn't) but they made a general calculation including them, so did i to check if there was some difference between their calculation of the time and a modern one.

But, if I am right (just to check)

Argo 2513 GRT
Ada Gorthon 2399 GRT
Anna Katrin Fritzen 677 GRT
Otto Cords 906 GRT
Margareta 1272 GRT
Lulea 5611 GRT

Total amount of 13378 GRT

I got the data (as first source) from M.Morozov list (http://tsushima.su/forums/viewtopic.php?id=1357&p=1) that can still have some mistakes (he corrected a pair).

For which ship (or ships) do you have a different tonnage?

[Juha Tompuri]

might have been one reason to continue the submarine operations, even the results were relatively modest, and the kill/loss ratio not that good.
That continuing led to the your mentioned serious losses to the submarine fleet.

I'm not exactly sure that's a so simple reason (or only one reason) (especially considering the events of 1943, with attempts to operate and only when losses get really heavy with no result it was stopped; at this point one could also considering the different assessments of what is considered acceptable losses at the time, and what was not), and in every case that's not exactly the matter of my post.

Yes, but I think that staff would have aware of the submarine real results, they might have thought a bit would it be worth loosing 1 sub with it's crew for two merchant ships sunken, ~4500 GRT transport capacity in exchange for a sub and it's crew.

Speaking of more important stuff

Orion did not sunk.

And this is also the case, (also Fides didn't)

Yep, I understood Fides fate from your post.

But, if I am right (just to check)

Argo 2513 GRT
Ada Gorthon 2399 GRT
Anna Katrin Fritzen 677 GRT
Otto Cords 906 GRT
Margareta 1272 GRT
Lulea 5611 GRT

Total amount of 13378 GRT

I got the data (as first source) from M.Morozov list (http://tsushima.su/forums/viewtopic.php?id=1357&p=1) that can still have some mistakes (he corrected a pair).

For which ship (or ships) do you have a different tonnage?

Argo Fin 2513
Ada Gorthon Swe 2425
Anna Karin Fritzen Ger 676
Otto Cords Ger 966
Margareta Swe 1272
Luleå Swe 5611

http://kotisivut.fonet.fi/~aromaa/Navyg ... tsub42.htm

Orion 2405 GRT

Regads, Juha

[igorr]

Lloyd Register says:
Ada Gorthon 2405
Otto Cords 906
Other like Juha wrote above.

[lupodimare89]

Yes, but I think that staff would have aware of the submarine real results, they might have thought a bit would it be worth loosing 1 sub with it's crew for two merchant ships sunken, ~4500 GRT transport capacity in exchange for a sub and it's crew.

Yeah ok, but... it's already "known" stuff, i mean...
In every kind of english publication regarding the soviet navy it's just repeated and repeated and repeated all the kind of Soviet mistakes committed...
While none of the German ones are reported (but this is generally an issue of the whole Eastern Front, and not just the war on sear).
In the end it's a long discussion that bring to other matters rather than the research of events and data.


Concerning the GRT differences, I've passed the frustration of looking at sources and authors with different data... and honestly I've little time to spent searching the truth about them for each differences...




And finally, moving at some more tangible stuff:

Sinking of cargo "Klaus Oldendorff". Reported struck a mine and sank in the Gulf of Finland.
Date: 24 November 1942. Route: "Reval-Helsingfors." (Helsinki-Tallin). Sinking place at "Location: Porkkala, Kallbåda"
Tonnage: 1101 GRT or 1081 GRT

On voyage from Tallinn to Turku, the ship S/S Klaus Oldendorf anchored at N 59 49,7 E 24 20,9 (WGS84 coordinate system) in the evening. ... Best Regards, Richard

Thanks this diver, proper location is established

As feared, Morozov reply is not an hoped one:

No soviet subs in the sea by that time. Due to the bad condition of the bow part of the wreck divers can't say if that was an explosion of a drifting mine or sea damages of the ship (their was a storm on that night).

The great German minefield "Nashorn" laid between Tallin and Helsinki in 1942 and quite a lot minefields laid around from 1941.

Guess we can say to have moved from "uncertainty" to "confirmed uncertainty".
But at least it's "confirmed"


Let's hope a bit more of luck for other future entries.

(Still focusing a bit more on sinking from mines: as expected is an hard and uncertain subject, but there is a big lack of this, on the net.)