Soviet Naval Battles

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igorr
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Re: Soviet Naval Battles

Post by igorr » 09 Dec 2015 04:58

Soviet submariners didn't count grt-tonnage at all. When they hit a ship, they claim only displacement in tons.

lupodimare89
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Re: Soviet Naval Battles

Post by lupodimare89 » 09 Dec 2015 15:20

mars wrote:I may be wrong, but should tonnage sunk count more than number of ships sunk?
igorr wrote:Soviet submariners didn't count grt-tonnage at all. When they hit a ship, they claim only displacement in tons.


If may be of further interest for you mars, the top Soviet "ace" was surely A.I Marinesko in terms of western/german tonnage sunk.

He's quite famous even if one has basic knowledge of eastern front naval warfare for the sinking of Gustloff.
Mostly because he sunk unusual large ships for the Baltic: "Wilhelm Gustloff" (25484 GRT) and "General von Steuben" (14660 GRT), for an amount of 40144 GRT

But for the stated comments above, this has a relevance just for curiosity especially if you want to compare them with other Navies.

No other commander gathered such result in terms of tonnage in the Soviet Navy, if you're interest in the whole result of the submarine (S-13), you should add other +1379GRT ("Hera"), +2325GRT ("Jussi H."), + 290GRT ("Anna W.") all lost in 1942 but under a different commander.

mars
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Re: Soviet Naval Battles

Post by mars » 09 Dec 2015 23:38

Thank you, lupodimare89. I understand the disadvantage of Soviet submarine force comparing to Germans, there were too few targets in a too constraint area.

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Re: Soviet Naval Battles

Post by lupodimare89 » 10 Dec 2015 01:47

mars wrote:Thank you, lupodimare89. I understand the disadvantage of Soviet submarine force comparing to Germans, there were too few targets in a too constraint area.
For a matter of comparison, you could search about the u-boat operations in Black Sea, and the ones in Gulf of Finland (this one in 1944/early '45).

Germans suffered in proportion less losses of submarines than the Soviets, but they also scored little results due absence of big valuable targets (compared with Atlantic Ocean), regions with bad weather, presence of many mines etc...

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Re: Soviet Naval Battles

Post by lupodimare89 » 25 Jan 2016 16:57

As promised, I came back for some other relevant-significant updated.

Also if Igor is back I would like some confirmation for this very recent entry into the blog
http://igor-ktb.livejournal.com/17835.html
I also asked Morozov on tsushima for possible knowledge of additional details.

Seems interesting because it should be the most confirmed new small victory achieved by soviet surface vessel in Arctic with gunfire.
Basically (if I translated correctly). The Soviet motorboat "Shchuka" (=Pike, like the famous sub. class) grounded on German shore, with 6 men and a cargo of food (boat was 46 tons and was on supply mission).
Germans captured crewmembers who claimed to have defected (unclear if true or said out of convenience after maybe ship grounded by mistake).
Germans also removed the cargo but then MO 123 and 133 shelled her with 3 hits.

Even if boat was former soviet and was clearly destroyed to prevent capture, the fact she had already been infact ispected/ temporarily recovered by Germans could qualify this as an additional small victory for the MO-4 boats (and the only one in Arctic, excluding the much more successful mine-laying missions).

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Re: Soviet Naval Battles

Post by igorr » 26 Jan 2016 02:50

German docs says this was intentional escape, but i don't believe them for 100%.
Germans intenden to use this motorboat, but i wonder how they can do this in full soviet superiority in Motowsky bay.

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Re: Soviet Naval Battles

Post by lupodimare89 » 26 Jan 2016 17:24

Thanks for the reply!
Um.. maybe to bring her away? No idea if this was possible to do, sailing around the Fishermen peninsula, or maybe underestimating soviet presence.

As additional question, there were German soldiers around/protecting the boat during the shelling? Sign of return-fire or casualties on both sides?

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Re: Soviet Naval Battles

Post by igorr » 29 Jan 2016 02:57

Of course, germans can't sail around Rybachiy, almost can't sail along coast. It is hardly believe they can transport this boat through land - no roads, harsh terrain and relatively big boat.
No soldiers was killed/wounded during shelling. No signsof return fire.

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Re: Soviet Naval Battles

Post by lupodimare89 » 22 Mar 2016 16:38

Hello again, this time I just wanted to expose to eventual english-speaker readers something of the probably most poorly known and less rich of source corner of soviet naval warfare: actions against Japan in 1945 AND riverine actions against local manchurian forces in rivers during the same last days of war (Amur, Ussari, Khanka lake).

I may adds that on this rare field, the same big author Morozov told some time ago how this (riverine warfare) was especially hard and not his focus.

However on tsushima.su I read a post by a author, that seems to have been the only one to work on this.
He wrote much of the first data here: http://www.navylib.su/ships/august-1945/ but also on the same forum he made further corrections and additions especially for the actions against Japanese.

But let's start from riverine warfare, here what could be collected:
I lists here only the events that appears to include action of Soviet riverine units, not the many seizures done by ground troops.


-----------

9 August:
Riverine ferry (paddle-steamer kind?) captured by gunboat BK-63 (1124-class). 79 prisones. Amur River (Saratovka).

Riverine ferry (paddle steamer kind?) captued by small patrol boat KM-113. 26 prisoners. Amur River.
This appears also the be the only event of gunnery fighting on the front: KM-113 was damaged during the action and received 13 bullet holes.

Riverine ferry (paddle steamer kind?) captured by gunboats BK-61 and BK-62 (both 1124-class). 117 prisoners. Amur river (Sindunya).

Police-boat captured by gunboat BK-64 (1124-class). 6 prisoners. Amur river (Bibiko).

a dinghy boat captured by unnamed soviet (gunboats? patrols?) units on Amur (Fuyuan).



10 August :
6 police boats and 4 scows sunk by Soviet gunboats "Zeya" and "Bureya". Amur River (Sahalyane)
Steamer "Shao Xin" (or Shao Sin) and up 20 different small boats captured by Soviet gunboats "Zeya" and "Bureya". Amur River (Sahalyane)
NOTE: The only Soviet units named "Zeya" and "Bureya" were from Baltic Fleet. I have no idea of which ships they could have been.

Barge captured by armoured boat (defined as "РБК" I've no idea which class they are). Amur river ( Manchzhoutune)


Tug and barges captured by river boats (gunboats? patrols?). Ussari river (Raohe).


3 Manchurian armed boats and 11 fishing boats sunk (?) by Soviet armed boats BK-28, BK-29 (both 1125 class) and 2 patrol boats (defined as "РПК", possibly these? http://www.navypedia.org/ships/russia/ru_bg_rpk.htm ). In the Lake Khanka.

Worth to be said that the Manchurian boats are named "Shun-Tsu" (or Shun Tsu), "Wee Chuan-An" (or Shuan Up), "Wee Chuan-Kai" (or Shuan Kai).
On Navypedia two of thems are listes as existings http://navypedia.org/ships/manchukuo/ma_cf_shuan_an.htm and both reported as lost on 10 August without description. Also Navypedia speak about other minor vessels, including one (" Hai Yuang") reported as scuttled OR captured by soviet gunboats.
Also before this event 2 patrol boats have been scuttled and a third wrecked.


12-13 August
More than 50 small landing crafts/barges captured by coastguard boats. Lake Khanka.

12-15 August
Police-boat captured by two gunboats. Lake Khanka.
Maybe this one was "Hai Yuang", reported as possibly sezed on 15 August.

15 August
"Armoured gunboat n°203" captured by gunboats. Songhua river.

18 August
One armed ship and 3 barges sunk by gunboats. Sanxing (Sungari river)
One passenger ship, 6 tugs, 2 dredgers, 19 barges and scows captured by gunboats(?). At Sanxing (Sungari river)

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Re: Soviet Naval Battles

Post by lupodimare89 » 23 Mar 2016 17:36

A correction for day 10 August:
No larger gunboats involved: "Zeye-Bureyskaya" is the name of the combat brigade.
Once again probably BK gunboats involved.

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Re: Soviet Naval Battles

Post by lupodimare89 » 29 Nov 2016 10:57

Hello again, if someone interested would pass here, I recently read a bit more of 1939 winter war and here I come with few details.

On the Finnish site kotisivut.fonet.fi I read the following report:
"Soviet ship M130 stops and boards Suursaari on its way from Lavansaari to Kotka with barge."
Occurred on 29 November 1939, just shortly before the official beginning of the war.
I found no details on internet on this Finnish ship's details and subsequent's fate. Also it is unclear to me what "M130" could be...
Curiosily, the same Finnish ship is reported to have been previously stopped and inspected by Soviet destroyer Groznyi on 23 November, but then left go away.

The other details concern naval encounters in Petsamo during 1939.
Previously it has been wrote here how the two main local Finnish guardboats were Jäämeri and Turja: both scuttled with no contact with enemy.
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... i#p1785304

Digging through Russian sources however there are two cases of meetings/seizure of intact(?) boats:
1) On 30 November 1939. Soviet auxiliary mineswepers Tszcz-895 and Tszcz-897 intercepted and captured two small motorboats that were evacuating civilians from Rybachi peninsula (no exact number of people present, but included women and children).

2) On 1 December 1939, the same Tszcz-895 and Tszcz-897, in addition of the more armed guard vessel/torpedo boat Gruza after receiving from shore (and firing back) found what's described as an "auxiliary minesweeper" named "Suomi-14" (=Суоми-14). Another report say it was seized (no word of crew, maybe it was abandoned intact?). No idea if it was really a small minesweeper boat, maybe it was a trawler?

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Re: Soviet Naval Battles

Post by Ruotsinsalmi » 29 Nov 2016 16:13

Hi lupodimare89

S/S Suursaari was a mail ship owned by the Finnish state , build 1927 in Lehtoniemi yard in Varkaus. Dimensions 32,46x7,01x3,5 m, 320 dwt.
It served in Petsamo 20.11.1940-15.7.1943 and later as an escort vessel in Suomenlahti.
It was taken by Soviet Union as war reparations in 1945 and it become Admiral Nahimov.

Suomi-14 was a trawler identification number like you said.

Here something in finnish
http://www.turkusteamers.com/saaristoli ... laiva.html

Pekka

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Re: Soviet Naval Battles

Post by lupodimare89 » 30 Nov 2016 15:43

Thanks for the details!

kotisivut is a good finnish site, but sometimes has minor inaccuracies.

There is no detailed knowledge on what could have happened on 29/Nov/39 ?
Even if occurred an ispection I think ship was left, because there is no trace of seizure (the only one occurred in winter war was the one of Auvo).

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Juha Tompuri
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Re: Soviet Naval Battles

Post by Juha Tompuri » 30 Nov 2016 21:59

lupodimare89 wrote:kotisivut is a good finnish site
Yes, a very good one.
lupodimare89 wrote:There is no detailed knowledge on what could have happened on 29/Nov/39 ?
Even if occurred an ispection I think ship was left, because there is no trace of seizure
Yes, of course, no seizure after the illegal inspection/earlier stop.

Regards, Juha

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Re: Soviet Naval Battles

Post by Juha Tompuri » 02 Dec 2016 20:06

lupodimare89 wrote:Hello again, if someone interested would pass here, I recently read a bit more of 1939 winter war and here I come with few details.

On the Finnish site kotisivut.fonet.fi I read the following report:
"Soviet ship M130 stops and boards Suursaari on its way from Lavansaari to Kotka with barge."
Occurred on 29 November 1939, just shortly before the official beginning of the war.
I found no details on internet on this Finnish ship's details and subsequent's fate. Also it is unclear to me what "M130" could be...
Curiosily, the same Finnish ship is reported to have been previously stopped and inspected by Soviet destroyer Groznyi on 23 November, but then left go away.
At both cases Finnish Coast Guard identified the Soviet vessel as m/130 class destroyer (probably a Finnish identification code to the Gnevnyi class) AFAIK the vessel that sank the Finnish Coast Guard motor boat AV-141 on the first day of the war was also identified by Finns as m/130 class destroyer.
Rankki (Coast) Guard area war diary:
About 11.00 o'clock enemy destroyer (AFAIK Finnish designation being type m/130) fired at Finniah Coast Guard motorboat at area 1369 South of Island Someri.
11.30 motorboat sank at halfway from Lavansaari to Someri
http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=1624381
igorr wrote:It is stated, that GORDYI in 12.25 near Someri sunk cutter "V-14".
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0#p1778819
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... t#p1782882

Regards, Juha

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