Soviet Naval Battles

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lupodimare89
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Re: Soviet Naval Battles

Post by lupodimare89 » 17 May 2018 15:01

igorr wrote:Sorry, i can't help you with Baltic.
While I was digging on tsushima.su and others for crosscheck, I stumbled upon an old post/discussion that i found quite interesting and made further reasearch. It is about the combat operations of the small Soviet naval detachment in Il’men Lake.

I learned some time ago that generally speaking the whole combat activity of Soviet small flottillas in river and lakes (especially in 1945) are poorly known. This is quite a huge pity, because while less "fascinating" than large warships operations in open sea, they appears rich of little local successes (far more than the major fleets operations). One key widespread issue it's the lack of documents concerning the Heer (German Army) over usage, clashes and losses of small assault boats, ferriers, confiscated local boats and schooners etc.

While lacking this obvious confirmation, some episodes appears quite realistic by their own nature (and some have been previously covered on this forum's discussion). This seems the case for the Il’men Lake actions:

On three different dates: 17 September 1943, 30 September 1943, 3 October 1943 boarded and seized 5 different fishing schooners (apparently all manned by Russian and fishing for the German army). Two different schooners boarded on the last incident.
Episode appears thus confirmed by presence of prisoners (11 captured) and schooners later pressed in service (four of them re-armed).

Still obviously would be quite interesting to know the exact report of the three incidents: the main Soviet units of the flottilla were five boats of “Ya-5” type (mortar-boat/minesweepers multipurpose etc): n°5, n°6, n°7, n°8 and n°9.
They were augmented/supported by five BK-70 and four NKL-27 speedboats.


To fully complete this small account, apparently the Soviet detachment did not suffered losses on these operations. And to be faithful on what reported they actually claimed to have destroyed/sunk 43 different enemy boats!!
They are even described: 10 combat boats, 16 armed schooners, 17 cargo schooners.

Personally i think it's quite an high claim. While it is possible this naval detachment also sunk some other fishing schooner or supply motorboat (or even some armed boat operated by Heer?) I would like to know if someone else researched on the subject.

igorr
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Re: Soviet Naval Battles

Post by igorr » 18 May 2018 03:02

On lake Ilmen was 25 independent division of cutters. It has long history: firstly on lake was formed Military River squad from 4 BMK-cutters (Nrs. 1-4) and NKL-27 halfglissers Nrs. 1-4. It was subordinated to 13 rifle corps. Then 1.8.43 5 cutters of YA-5 type from Volga River flottilla (Nrs. 5-9) were sent to Ilmen, arriving around 20.8.43. On 15.9.44 25th division was fully activated. In first clash 17.9.43 one schooner was captured (with 2 women and 1 man as crew). 2 schooners (4 men crew) was captured at 30.9.43 and 2 schooners at 2.10 (not 3.10).

lupodimare89
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Re: Soviet Naval Battles

Post by lupodimare89 » 18 May 2018 09:09

Thank you!
By math, the last incident should have involved other 4 crewmembers captured?
There are no reports of German counter-reactions? (manning boats or motorboat for protections of fishing cutters).
Also there are details about which Soviet individual boat engaged in each clash?

igorr
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Re: Soviet Naval Battles

Post by igorr » 18 May 2018 10:37

Yes, 4 man was captured in last case.
17.9.43 cutter which boarded schooner was BMK-70 type Nr.3.
30.9.43 - YA-5 cutters Nrs. 6 and 7
2.10.43 - same 2 cutters + Nr.8.
I don't know about german countermeasures. There is docs about KM activity on Peipusssee (Tchudskoe lake). May be no KM-units were on Ilmen, so if one need to know about them, this person need to search in german Heer documents.

lupodimare89
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Re: Soviet Naval Battles

Post by lupodimare89 » 29 May 2018 09:57

Thanks agin for these very interesting info! It would be interesting to dig more into riverine and lake's operations and then stumble upon similar poorly known incidents (among the "blank info data" there are the operations in Peipus Lake in 1941, Caspian Sea operations against Persia in 1941, the operations of Ladoga and Odessa in the last stage of war, operations of BK and other riverine boats in central europe and even Berlin in 1944-1945).


Meanwhile, here another chunk of Soviet naval AA history in Baltic Sea:


1942
At the raids in Kronstadt (see previous page), the Soviet Navy moved the main ship (except Marat obviously) to Leningrad for better protection.
Again the Germans targeted them: the raids failed, but the Soviet Navy did not used her ships like it did in the first stage of Leningrad siege nor attemptied sorties, they played a supportive role however in 1944 final counter-offensive.


4 April 1942
132 bombers participated (Ju-87, Ju-88 and He-111) covered by 59 Bf-109 targeted battleship Oktyabrskaya Revolyutsiya, cruisers Kirov and Maxim Gorky and minelayer Marti. Only cruiser Kirov suffered damage due bomb penetrating the hull.
No German losses, apart a He-111 bomber (n°4837, 1G+EN, 5th squadron from KG27) that landed despite having the left engine knocked out: unclear if damage occurred by naval or ground anti-aircraft fire.
Soviet fighters appear uneffective, no victory and 4 I-16 lost.


24 April 1942
Luftwaffe organized another air raid in Leningrad against ships: cruiser Kirov received 3 hits from “Stuka” with heavy damages and casualties.
One “Stuka” damaged by LaGG-3, at the cost of three fighters shot down. Two “Stuka” suffered damages by ground anti-aircraft fire.
A third Ju-87 (9h squadron StG1, pilot killed, co-pilot survived) crashed while flying back on German lines: shared between 37mm anti-aircraft fire from destroyer Silnyi or anti-aircraft ground fire


27 April 1942
Anothe Luftwaffe raid: training ship Svir sunk by direct hit.
Once again, pilots and anti-aircraft flak from the ground claimed multiple victories.
A Ju-87 bomber (n°2033, 7th Squadron of StG2, pilot Bartsch and co-pilot Stematscher killed) shot down, likely by anti-aircraft fire from cruiser Maxim Gorky (2 Ju-87 claimed) or anti-aircraft ground fire.


(next post will gather the rest of Baltic Sea claims)

lupodimare89
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Re: Soviet Naval Battles

Post by lupodimare89 » 30 Jun 2018 10:37

Here the rest of episodes i gathered from the book cossing with database losses of luftwaffe: sadly after the decent descriptions over air-raids on Leningrad, the books turns less schematic-detailed and became more descriptive-narraive without following a "clash-by-clash" description.

It is likely the data i gathered is INCOMPLETE.


Moshchny Island Area:
Sometimes referred as the "Soviet/Russian Malta", the small island did not saw the huge amount of fighting-bombig-resupply like the Mediterranean Sea. The book at some point describe one specific fully confirmed shoting down of a German bomber over the island, however it is also described as fully confirmed by ground AA (from newly arrived guns).

So far i found just one episode that can be related to Naval AA:
On 3 July 1942, German He-111 bomber (n°4810, A1+EX, I./KG53, pilot: Fritz Pockrandt) hit on sea by naval flak over the sea close Moshchny Island. Plane itself made an hard landing on Finnish shore, and crew saved.
On that period of time, multiple Soviet MO-4 boats claimed to have shot-down German bombers while on patrol around the Island.
Possibly it was MO-211 reporting multiple attacks between 2 and 4 July.



Ladoga Lake:

16 October 1941
German Ju-88 bomber (3./KGr806, serial number 1180) was shot down. Crew captured.
Described as shared claim by Soviet fighters, ground anti-aircraft artillery and naval gunfire frm gunboat "Konstruktor".

I failed to find even damages reported on German planes during the time of Battle of Suho (22 October 1942), despite many Soviet claims.

27 May 1943
German raid over Novaya Ladoga, inflicting damages to harbor and buildings.
Two planes shot down during the fight: He-111 (serial n°8542, 2./KG53, crew MIA) and He-111 (serial n°160423, 7./KG53, crew MIA)
According book, Soviet fighters failed to properly intercept the planes, while ground anti-aircraft artillery made also claim, it is very likely also the single claims (one each) made by gunboats "Bira" and "Bureya": both ships just received new armament including 130mm and 37mm.
During the attack, MO-206 suffered damages.
Curiosily there was a previous bombing on Novaya Ladoga, with other 2 German bombers confirmed shot down and claims by Soviet gunboats but this is unlikely considering they had not yet received the new armament and anti-aircraft artillery made more numerous and solid claims.





Kronstadt Area:

29 April 1943
Fw-190 fighter (3./JG54, serial 2592) reported as was shot down by the KM-2 type patrol boat I-23, near Kronstadt .
I found no detail over the incident, patrol boat was very small with machinegun.


18 October 1943
In Luga Bay.
German recce plane Ju-88 (5.(F)/122, serial 430716) reported as shot down by Soviet patrol boat n°55. Crew saved.
Again poor details, I have also no information/knowledge about the class of the patrol boat.

CF Geust
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Re: Soviet Naval Battles

Post by CF Geust » 30 Jun 2018 14:49

The "Moshchny" Island in the Southern part of Gulf of Finland was forner Finnish Island Lavansaari, ceded to the Soviet Union after the Winter war 13 March 1940 together with several other Finnish islands (Suursaari/Gogland, Tytärsaari/Tyuters, Penisaari/Malyj, Seiskari/Seskar etc). The Soviet Baltic Fleet occupied these islands already during the first days of the Winter war (30 November - 3 December 1939) without difficulty. As most of the Finnish population had already departed to the mainland the then demilitarized islands were practically empty. Suursaari was recaptured by Finnish forces in late March 1942, and Tytärsaari was captured in early April 1942. The Finnish forces were soon withdrawn from Tytärsaari, and replaced by German forces, while Lavansaari remained a Soviet naval and AF base during the entire war 1941-1945. It is remarkable that Russified name versions (or entirely new names (Lavansaari -> Moshschnyi, Penisaari -> Malyi) were taken into use only in 1951, and thus Lavansaari (sometimes written erroneusly Lavensaari) was always used in Soviet situation reports etc.

He 111 c/n 4810 (A1 + EX) belly-landed 3 July 1942 on the Finnish (northern) shore of Gulf of Finland, after bombing Lavansaari as written above by "lupodimare89", and is depicted in SA-photos 97663...97666. Photo 97663 is enclosed.
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CF Geust
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Re: Soviet Naval Battles

Post by CF Geust » 01 Jul 2018 12:46

According to Matti Salonen's post on the 12 oclockhigh-forum the tactical code is 1A+CX.

Mangrove
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Re: Soviet Naval Battles

Post by Mangrove » 01 Jul 2018 16:21

CF Geust wrote: He 111 c/n 4810 (A1 + EX) belly-landed 3 July 1942 on the Finnish (northern) shore of Gulf of Finland, after bombing Lavansaari as written above by "lupodimare89", and is depicted in SA-photos 97663...97666. Photo 97663 is enclosed.
From Rannikkotykistörykmentti 2 / Linnakkeisto Simonen's war diary on 3 and 4July 1942. According to the diary, the plane made an emergency landing c. 200 metres from the former Soviet officer school at the village of Sortavala in Seivästö.
18.50 teki pakkolaskun pommikone Heinkel III A1CK pakkolaskun rantaviivalle Sortavalan kylään n. 200 m punaupseerikoulusta. Kone oli ollut kahden muun Heinkel-koneen kanssa pommittamassa ryssän VM-veneitä, jolloin yllämainittu kone sai 2 osumaa ohjaamoonsa ja koneen ohjaaja, oberfeldwäpel (SIC) Heckert sai palohaavoja. Koneen tasot vaurioituivat pakkolaskussa. Koneessa oli ohjaajan lisäksi koneen päällikkö, major Pokrant (SIC), feltwäpelit Huckels ja Röter ja unteroffizier Daum, jotka saivat vain lieviä vammoja.

Kone oli startannut Kotlysta(?). Palohaavoja saanut ohjaaja toimitettu heti Halilaan. Häntä seurasi koneen päällikkö ja toinen vääpeleistä; toisten jäädessä irroittamaan koneen osia.
06.00. Saapui Lentol. 6:sta 1 ups. ja 4 au ja miestä purkamaan pakkolaskun tehneen koneen osia ja lähtivät takaisin klo 12.00 yhdessä saksalaisten kanssa ja vieden irroitetut koneen osat mukanaan. Koneen runko jäi paikalle.

lupodimare89
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Re: Soviet Naval Battles

Post by lupodimare89 » 29 Jul 2018 15:57

Thanks for the details! ^^

I made some extra searchs in free time. Concerning anti-air activities I found this:

20 January 1943
Fw 189 A-3 WNr 2138 H7+YH of 1.(H)/Aufkl.St. Ostsee
Pilot: FW. Paul Bray (MIA)
Plane went missing over Baltic. I have no exact location, and plane could have been lost for multiple causes (if there is no specific soviet claim).


In the above-mentioned link, in the discussion of Finnish anti-ship attacks there are posts for the (so far) two Finnish air losses by Soviet naval flak (a Fokker C.X during winter war on 29/Jan/40 and a second one damaged by ships "Oranienbaum" "Razvedchik" and "Dozornyi", a Bristol Blenheim on 29/Jun/42 by unidentified MO4).





Also a couple more of questions for igor related to Arctic warfare:

28 March 1942
Ju 88 (WNr. 0880 797 4D+HA; Erprobungsstaffel (Erp)/KG 30), suffered 70% damages with 3 wounded after alleged Soviet naval fire 13Km NW of Mehamn. This match with some Soviet operation? The encounter occurred one day before the famous clash involving Grem. and Sokr. and British ships against German destroyers on convoy PQ13.


21 July 1942
A recce Ju-88 (WNr. 0430 045 G2 + BH Aufklärungsstaffel 1.(F)/AGr 124) lost near Jokanga, in Kola Peninusla. Crew (4) killed.
Once again described as naval flak.

igorr
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Re: Soviet Naval Battles

Post by igorr » 01 Aug 2018 04:37

28 March 1942
This Ju 88 attacks convoy, but soviet ships didn't reach them at that time. Ofcourse fight was not near Mehamn (this is german held norwegian village). Plane made crash landing there after long flight on 1 motor.

21 July 1942
This Ju was on mission over Arkhangelsk. Started in 10.28, plane made last message 14.45 from 36 OSt 9930 - flying on 1 motor. Then it desappaear. I know no soviet claims for this day, nor fighters, nor flaks. Place is ca. 100 km south-east of Teriberka, long way from Jokanga, btw.

lupodimare89
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Re: Soviet Naval Battles

Post by lupodimare89 » 07 Feb 2019 18:03

Ok, while life took its toll in terms of study and work, thanks to igor i finally found the english Ultra transcriptions of German naval communication.
(from the Official British national archives: here some parts: http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.u ... r/h/C42163)
Interestingly, this cover also timespan relatively unknown (1945) due loss of war diaries, or the ones not available in english (the english-translated main KTB don't cover for example many months of 1942).

As interesting detail, thare files (from October 1943 to 1944) covering on specific Black Sea.
The previous part for Black Sea (late August 1942 to October 1943) it's covered on mixed data with Mediterranean Sea.
Pre-August 1942 are (I suppose) integrated with the main database of ZTPGM series.

I have started researching some specific Black Sea events previousy obscure while at the same time checking the 1945-events for Baltic "backward" from the very end of the conflict.

But let's start from some most interesting battle events in Black Sea:
------------------------------------------------------------------------

18 August 1943
In Azov Sea, occurred the already-covered naval fight when two German MAL gunboats sunk two Soviet BKA
(This was the second and last episode with a nearly identical outcome in Azov Sea).

I found with great interest a mention in tsushima.su ((http://tsushima.su/forums/viewtopic.php?id=304&p=5)) how two Soviet TKA searching for the missing gunboats captured 10 fishermen.

This information is detailed in the Ultra (DEFE 3/614)
https://i.imgur.com/Ipv1lIu.jpg
Stating that “At 1000” “2 enemy boats carried off 2 fishing boats after capturing the crew(s), 6 men”
The follow-up message make a fix stating “2 enemy M.T.B.”

I would like to ask extra Soviet details of it, espcially:
1) Exact identity of TKA involved
2) Correct number of prisoners (6 or 10?) and if they were only Russian/Ukraine sailors (obviously sailing-fishing in German occupied area) or maybe if there were also some guards on it, as reported in a past incident in 1942 (sinking of n°2412 on 25/Jul/42).
3) Extra possible details as hull-number or extimated tonnage off boats (i guess small).

In any case, even if quite small successes, they can be added in the short list of Black Sea MTB victories (including so far: by torpedo the Italian midget-sub. CB-5, German MFP F-334, German sub.chaser UJ-104 torpedoed twice in separate encounters (sunk after the last attack) according latest M.Morozov descriptions;; by artillery fire the fishing boat n°2412 (shared with SKA)).

lupodimare89
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Re: Soviet Naval Battles

Post by lupodimare89 » 27 Feb 2019 15:20

Another interesting subject I am working to try to cover it's the already partially discussed episodes in September 1942.

Originally we had KTB claiming this:
An attempt by two soviet MTBs to make a landing at north-west of Novorossisk is reported to have been repulsed by "2 vessels of the Neumann group. Causalities were light".
for night between 20/21 September.

Igor report of Soviet side was:
Two nights (19/20 and 20/21) 4 SKA and 2 TKA landed and then embarked again some troops (smtg like british "commandos"). They have fight with enemy cutters but only 19/20, without losses (3 WIA). They claimed one enemy motorboat as sunk.
Checking the Ultra files, there is some extra data:
ULTRA DEFE 3/580 Pagg1050 (for day 21 September 1942)
Make a short but full report of a German boat “Lying inshore, vessel attached to “operational detachment”, repulsing a "landing attempt" at “Shirokaya Balka”. Own losses 1 killed


Given the almost matching description, it is likely the date discrepance was for timezone or delayed report?
Identity of TKA involved could be interesting.


----


Interestingly, KTB also reported this for 27 September.
"A cutter of the Neumann command sank in an engagement at Novorossisk after suffering a hit below the water line".
Other talks emerged this consideration:
In KTB of Seekom. Kaukasus I found short record about engagement between kutter "Seidan" with a sinle MG and some soviet cutters off Schirokaja Balka about 01.00 September 20th (not November as you wrote above). The very engagement was described in KTB ASM like "See-Fahrzeuge des Einzatzkdos. Neumann".
BTW, "Seidan" sunk September 22nd in Schirokaja Balka as the result of close explosion of a small bomb. Later "Seidan" probably was raised (the works began on September 27th).
This claim of recovering is fully covered in the Ultra, becaue the same DEFE file (page600 and something) say clearly:
3/Oct/42: “Cutter that sunk off Novorossisk has been raised and proceeding to Anapa on her own power
I found no other reference about this cutter being sunk somewhat between 22 September and October.
It remains to understand what the "small bomb" was; but the same location of attack (Schirokaja Balka) is suspicious.
So MAYBE indeed the cutter got battle damages from the TKA (or by the scouts?).
Not a very important success (quick recovery) but interesting for the individual activity of TKA involved.

lupodimare89
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Re: Soviet Naval Battles

Post by lupodimare89 » 21 Apr 2019 21:25

I would like to post another couple of interesting events covering other possible (in my opinion likely) small successes of Soviet light naval forces especially in Azov Sea. I am also very interested in knowing potential Soviet details of the two seizures of fishing boats on 18/Aug/43.
Mostly because they are de-facto full victories confirmed by Germans for the TKA. and could be great to know exact identity of TKA, number and identity of prisoners and potential extra data of boats (number? size? etc.) (German Ultra said "10", forum post on tsushima say "6" prisoners).

But here the other interesting clashes i found some info about:

1) 1 May 1943
During a raid (landing party) in Verbyanaya Spit, Soviet boats claimed to have clashed with a single small German boat, forced her to beach after damage and capturing the crew. On tsushima.su i read that SKA-0412 was one patrol boat involved, and that there is no German data confirmation of this loss. I will try to dig more personally (Ultra files?), but I should say that capture of prisoners is per-se a quite strong indication that the incident was real. It could be great to knwo the exact number and identity of Soviet boats involved and descriptions of prisoners caught by the boats: they captured sailors? or maybe German or Ukrainian guards sailing on some had-hoc local boat.

2) 30 August 1943
A somewhat similar incident during the liberation of Taganrog.
We previously covered at some point the loss of BK-312 and BK-122 by German MAL-1 but this occurred later.
During a subsequent landing operation, Soviet gunboat BK-111 (and maybe other units) encountered a "small German boat", inflicted damage to her, took her on tow and captured 10 POW on it. However damage/leaks caused the sinking of the boat while she was on tow.
Once again, i found no trace of German reporting this loss, but capture of prisoners and general details of description (direct capture with towing, even if she sunk), make the loss a quite credible-likely incident.

Somewhat related it's an account i found about the capture of Taganrog harbor: 10 seiners, 2 boats and 2 barges captured as trophy.
However from what i read i think these boats were all captured by landed troops without direct involvment of Soviet boats.

lupodimare89
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Re: Soviet Naval Battles

Post by lupodimare89 » 11 Jul 2019 10:05

I should update stating that the incident on 1/May/43 did not resulted in the loss of an enemy boat. I have no idea where/how the claim come out (especially regarding POWs captured) but it has been told me on tsushima.su, the loss is wrong.

On the other hand, the incident on 30/August/43 is completely confirmed! The motorboat was attempting to leave the harbor but was stopped by BK-111 with machinegun fire. The motorboat was also lightly armed but made no resistance: commander made suicide, two sailors jumped overboard and disappeared, other 10 POWs. The motorboat itself was took in tow by BK-111 but subsequently sunk due bad weather. In any case, BK-111 scored a small but interesting success in intercepting and effectively eliminating (seizure&accidental loss) of a surface boat.
Also interesting, during the very same day of operations, another lightly armed motorboat was manned by 4 Russians/Ukrainians collaborationists who defected to the Soviets and the sailed the boat straight to small minesweeper KATSh-176. The motorboat would be incorportated to the azov flotilla also as a small minesweeper (KATSh-193).

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