Soviet Naval Battles

[igorr]

29 March 1942.
The famous engagement of Conovy PQ-13.
With Sokrushitelnyi that fired 20 shells at a destroyer, claiming an hit.
I've read that Morozov think that could have been a friendly fire attack against the DD Fury.
But i've read a russian counter-article that say it's a bit unlikely and the target could have been actually the already damaged Z-26 (but not sunk at the 11.18 / 11.20 hours) at the time the Z-24 and Z-25 were chasing away the DD Eclipse when Sokrushitelnyi and the British DD Oribi sailing together were subjected to gunfire.
That could have been the Z-24&Z-25 fire or British fire. But the fact that the target of Sokrushitelnyu and Oribi (that fired 4 shells too) did not reacted (no other enemy fire was reported by Sokr. and Oribi) could means that the target was actuallyt he same Z-26 and could have been hit.
It's worthy to mention however that the whole battle was fought in very bad weather and it's probably impossible to make an accurate reconstrution of the event.

It is very complicate case. Did you remember about time difference between soviet and german forces? Theoretically it was 2 hour on 29 march. So when soviet DD make fight it was 9.20 for germans. To toher side Z.26 was ruined very quickly and she can't fired at SOKR. with 5-pieces salvoes.

2 May 1942.
Soviet patrol ship (corvette??) Rubin

This was purpose-built patrol ship (built for NKVD's border guard)

British account of the battle mention that Rubin had tried to tow away the Edinburgh, than during the fight (minesw. fired against German DD that retreated thinking of being attacked by other DDs) rammed accidentaly the Harrier.
There are Russian accounts of the event? I think that due the situation the Rubin fired against the enemy as the minesweepers, how many shells were fired? And German archivies/war diaries mention to light/splinter damages that could have been caused by the minesweepers (and so Rubin too) fire? (except the heavier damages inflicted by British DDs)

From soviet side has no any data about fire from RUBIN or about ramming.

19 August 1942
Soviet hydrographic vessel Polyarnik attacked and chased away with gunfire the German submarine U-209, then helped with patrol ship CKR-19 and minesweepers Tszcz-58 and Tszcz-59. There was no report of damage inflicted.

POLYARNIK was little motorboat that can't fight with sub. She not participated in clash, and same to SKR-19 which was subject to attack of U.456 when unloading near shore. Only two sweepers T-904 (Nr. 58) and T-885 (Nr. 39) pursued two boats (U.456 and 209). U.209 replied them, then both subs disappeared thanks their bigger speed. No damage to any ship.

27 August 1942.
Admiral Scheer attacked the harbor of Dikson. guard-ship (armed merchant?) Dhezev and the (armed?) steamer Revolutsioner

DEZNEV is SKR-19 from previous entry. Armed icebreaking steamship. REV. not armed.

BOTH for this and the previous engagement the Germans wrote nothing about any kind of damages (while Soviet sources claimed hits at Dikson). However if the modern internet sources about the events are took from post-war German history books, i would know if are avaible old archives/war diaries that could mention or not light or splinter damages.

There was no damage for germans in both cases.

Also i've read that ship was going to some repairs after the war operation, there is not some data of the actual kind of repairs? (again... it's better if there are original sources rather then quoting book, as i said i'm a bit skeptical about what was wrote on large warships engagement after the war)

True. Some dozen miles before his base SCHEER lost one of her diesels. SCH. go to raid with already malfunctioned machine.

7 November 1942
Soviet tanker Donbass (7925 GTR) sunk by destroyer Z-27 after resistance (was armed). There were 49 kia and 16 pow. Soviet sources claimed also that she hit at least one time the attacker, there are mention in Z-27 or DDs war diaries to some kind of splinter/light damages?. The destroyer sunk also the submarine chaser BO-78

I have no KTB for Z.27. In KTB Adm. Nordmeer who commanded Operation Hoffnung no any word about damage. 43 POW from both ships, incl. one woman.

There was one fight you forgot - between K-23 and UJ.1109/10/11. Sub was damaged in gunfight and finished with DC's and aircrafts.

[lupodimare89]

Don't worry about it, because it is false data. It is your choice of course to trust this sites.

I don't "trust" them, i just keep an eye on every kind of sources and when there is something of repeated i take a minute before scrap a thing.

It is very complicate case. Did you remember about time difference between soviet and german forces? Theoretically it was 2 hour on 29 march. So when soviet DD make fight it was 9.20 for germans. To toher side Z.26 was ruined very quickly and she can't fired at SOKR. with 5-pieces salvoes.

But... i was thinking that the hour of the battle was already converted correctly to a general use.
In a General german account of the battle:
09.43 hours. cruiser Trinidad spot the 3 German DDs and then hit the Z-26 (that was leading the group)
HMS Fury don't engage enemy (was astern and close the cruiser), Z-24 is missed and Z-26 is again hit.
Light damages on Trinidad
10.24 Trinidad try to torpedo the Z-26, that malfunctioned and circle runned and hit the same Trinidad.
10.32 Destroyer Eclipse locate alone the damaged Z-26 and chased her, hit her and force her to stop.
11.20 Z-24 and Z-25 damage the Eclipse that is forced to escape.
At the same time time Sokrushitelnyi and Oribi attacked. (Sokr. reported to be attacked at 11.18)
Was also presente submarine U-376 that observed the battle.
Only after this last action the Z-26 sunk.

If this events are listed correctly (and i'm pretty sure of this) i could see 3 basic options:
A) Sokr. was fired by Z-24&Z-25 that then targeted correctly the Eclipse and damaged her. Due to snow storm they had not further noticed the pair of Sokr. and Oribi and Sokr. fired at the Z-26 with an hit.
I think this is the most probable option due the early fire received by Sokr. and the fact that the destroyer seen and attacked (and hit) did not fired back, while Z-24&Z-25 were firing at the escaping Eclipse.
B) Sokr. was fired by Z-24&Z-25 and then fired at them (without hit, if there is not mention in German sources), this should be less likely due the said fact that the pair of DDs were firing with energy at the Eclipse and chased her away.
C) Sokr. was fired by Z-24&Z-25 and then fired at Eclipse. I don't know much about Eclipse movements, but i've never seen mentioned this possibility, among all the friendly fire possibilities it seems to me the most logic (more then the Fury that was close to the Trinidad)

What is your general opinion of the engagement, igorr?

British account of the battle mention that Rubin had tried to tow away the Edinburgh, than during the fight (minesw. fired against German DD that retreated thinking of being attacked by other DDs) rammed accidentaly the Harrier.
There are Russian accounts of the event? I think that due the situation the Rubin fired against the enemy as the minesweepers, how many shells were fired? And German archivies/war diaries mention to light/splinter damages that could have been caused by the minesweepers (and so Rubin too) fire? (except the heavier damages inflicted by British DDs)

From soviet side has no any data about fire from RUBIN or about ramming.

The ramming is a sure thing from British sources. They wrote that Rubin misleaded a communication from Harrier during the battle and moved too much closer to her, causing some damages. There is not a clear description of other action of Rubin during the battle, only it's clear that Rubin was with her and the minsweepers fought actively to protect the cruiser.
It's seems very unlikely to me that the Rubin remained firm to watch while all the other Allied minesweepers were firing around her, also considering that there was that kind of communication from Harrier and Rubin, possibly to coordinate better the movements of the group and not being hit by German shells.
It's worthy to mention that British report how the captain of Rubin wrote a personal letter to the captain of Harrier, with an apologize for the ramming. The style of the British description make the whole thing as a polite gallantery between commanding officers and fellow-in-arms. I could post it, if you're curious.


Also thanks for the add!

[igorr]

But... i was thinking that the hour of the battle was already converted correctly to a general use.

Of course not!! All west accounts use one time, and soviet - another. So clash between SOKRUSHITELNIY was 1,5-2 hour earlier then "german" 11.20. Actually soviet DD was in action shortly after it begin. She hear fire in 11.20 and 2 minutes later she open fire. I have no exact sceme of S. moventments, but she was near convoy, TRINIDAD and FURY much ahead for them and germans even further to East, screened from S. by T. and F. When S. headed to fire first it must discover british, not germans. I think 2 minutes after hear shootung is too littli time to reach actual battle scene. So it was some british DD near convoy who clash with S. Don't take for 100% all claims to hits from S. She missed and british DD of course arrived Murmansk without damage.

11.20 Z-24 and Z-25 damage the Eclipse that is forced to escape.

This time soviet DD's was near TRINIDAD. (13.00 moscow time)

[lupodimare89]

Ok, now THIS time you left me a bit speachless...
You would say that ALL the naval writers, all the people discussing and speaking of this online, and all the sources (including Morozov) has been so IDIOT to not check the time difference of the different reports of the battle??

Этот скоротечный бой занимает вид­ное место в истории советского военно-морского искусства, поскольку является единственным за всю Великую Отечес­твенную войну эпизодом, когда наш над­водный боевой корабль столкнулся с про­тивником своего же класса и даже вы­шел из него как бы победителем. В ка­честве противника «Сокрушительного» обычно указывается немецкий эсминец Z-26. Однако в последнее время в печа­ти появились материалы, в которых вы­двигаются другие версии. Так, авторы публикации (Грановский Е., Морозов М. Германские эс­минцы в бою, ч. 2. М., 1995. Там же — ссылка на статью в журнале «Marine Rundschau», № 1, 1977) , справедливо указывая, что к описываемому моменту Z-26 был силь­но поврежден и отстреливался от крей­сера «Тринидад» из единственного уце­левшего орудия, а кружившие вокруг кон­воя Z-24 и Z-25 находились достаточно далеко от места стычки, высказывают гипотезу, будто «Сокрушительный» вел бой с... английским эсминцем «Фьюри». Это представляется маловероятным, так как попадание в союзный эсминец (кста­ти, на следующий день пришедший в Мурманск) наверняка нашло бы отраже­ние и в документах, и в исторической ли­тературе. Более логично предположить, что мишенью комендорам «Сокрушитель­ного» все же служил Z-26, только вот огонь по советскому эсминцу вел кто-то другой, поскольку первый пятиорудийный залп не мог сделать ни один из находив­шихся вблизи эсминцев (и английские, и немецкие корабли имели по 4 орудия главного калибра). Кстати, в донесении командира «Сокрушительного» ничего и не говорится о ведении немцами огня. Так что два упавших у борта залпа впол­не могли принадлежать тому же крейсе­ру «Тринидад», принявшему «Сокруши­тельный» и «Гремящий» за Z-24 и Z-25. Во всяком случае, однозначного объяс­нения некоторых нестыковок в советском, немецком и английском описаниях этого боя нет.

This is a recent evaluation of the engagement, mentioning Morozov (1995) dealing about the Sokr. attack as happened at the time of all the account of the battle (including the raised possibility of attack on Fury) , if you've a more recent debate with clear statment of the engagement it could be clear because this mistake you say has beend done it's seems very big (and gross i could add). Morozov wrote again about this engagement? There is an online visible discussion about it?
One thing if a guy as me (online amatour interested) make mistake with a so basic element (time difference) another if this is done by all the military source and analys O,o
You've also to remember that Sokrushitelnyi was WITH HMS Oribi, and British confirm that Sokr. and Oribi fought together and at that time of the battle.
Thet're wrong too?

[lupodimare89]

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эсминцы встретили конвой, состоящий из английского эсминца и семи транспортов. На переходе от воздействия противника погибло пять судов. В 11 ч 20 мин на курсовом углу 5-15° на мостике “Сокрушительного” услышали артиллерийскую стрельбу. Видимость в районе плавания была 10—15 кб, временами налетали снежные заряды. Через одну-две минуты в 10-30 м от борта эскадренного миноносца стали падать снаряды пятиорудийных залпов. “Сокрушительный” увеличил ход до 20 уз. В 11 ч 22 мин на курсовом углу 130° левого борта открылся силуэт, в котором опознали немецкий эскадренный миноносец типа “Z”.

Another thing, it's pretty clear that the Sokr. (and Oribi as stated by British) were attracted by gunfire, and no gunfire was done.

[Juha Tompuri]

Этот скоротечный бой занимает вид­ное место в истории советского военно-морского искусства, поскольку является единственным за всю Великую Отечес­твенную войну эпизодом, когда наш над­водный боевой корабль столкнулся с про­тивником своего же класса и даже вы­шел из него как бы победителем. В ка­честве противника «Сокрушительного» обычно указывается немецкий эсминец Z-26. Однако в последнее время в печа­ти появились материалы, в которых вы­двигаются другие версии. Так, авторы публикации (Грановский Е., Морозов М. Германские эс­минцы в бою, ч. 2. М., 1995. Там же — ссылка на статью в журнале «Marine Rundschau», № 1, 1977) , справедливо указывая, что к описываемому моменту Z-26 был силь­но поврежден и отстреливался от крей­сера «Тринидад» из единственного уце­левшего орудия, а кружившие вокруг кон­воя Z-24 и Z-25 находились достаточно далеко от места стычки, высказывают гипотезу, будто «Сокрушительный» вел бой с... английским эсминцем «Фьюри». Это представляется маловероятным, так как попадание в союзный эсминец (кста­ти, на следующий день пришедший в Мурманск) наверняка нашло бы отраже­ние и в документах, и в исторической ли­тературе. Более логично предположить, что мишенью комендорам «Сокрушитель­ного» все же служил Z-26, только вот огонь по советскому эсминцу вел кто-то другой, поскольку первый пятиорудийный залп не мог сделать ни один из находив­шихся вблизи эсминцев (и английские, и немецкие корабли имели по 4 орудия главного калибра). Кстати, в донесении командира «Сокрушительного» ничего и не говорится о ведении немцами огня. Так что два упавших у борта залпа впол­не могли принадлежать тому же крейсе­ру «Тринидад», принявшему «Сокруши­тельный» и «Гремящий» за Z-24 и Z-25. Во всяком случае, однозначного объяс­нения некоторых нестыковок в советском, немецком и английском описаниях этого боя нет.

It would be easier to follow up your posting if there would be sources attached.
Perhaps http://www.wunderwaffe.narod.ru/Magazin ... _02/16.htm

This is a recent evaluation of the engagement

Does the link address give the date as year 1996?

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эсминцы встретили конвой, состоящий из английского эсминца и семи транспортов. На переходе от воздействия противника погибло пять судов. В 11 ч 20 мин на курсовом углу 5-15° на мостике “Сокрушительного” услышали артиллерийскую стрельбу. Видимость в районе плавания была 10—15 кб, временами налетали снежные заряды. Через одну-две минуты в 10-30 м от борта эскадренного миноносца стали падать снаряды пятиорудийных залпов. “Сокрушительный” увеличил ход до 20 уз. В 11 ч 22 мин на курсовом углу 130° левого борта открылся силуэт, в котором опознали немецкий эскадренный миноносец типа “Z”.

http://navycollection.narod.ru/battles/ ... icle3.html ?

Regards, Juha

[lupodimare89]

Was making a reply but it's not needed because i've found a very interesting source. An original document about the Eclipse. In the end the time-difference mentioned by igorr is right.
However it's seems that the Z-26 should actually have been the target.

"Other escorts consisted of two russian destroyers, stationed on each bow, and ORIBI, the latter was in the process of sweeping astern for Stragglers and returned just as the action started.
The convoy was steeering 105 degrees at 9 knots, and at 0920A was in position 72 degrees - 12' N, 32 degrees - E
The weather, which previous to 0800A had been clear and fine, was rapidly deteriorating with wind Force 3 from East, and heavy snow storms which reduced visibility to 2 cables.
Gun Fire was then heard on the Port bow of the Convoy and stray shells started to fall around.
Visibility was now about six cables, the destroyers were zig-zagging furiously around in order to maintain a decent speed when a Warship was sighted about 020 degrees, inclination 90 left, just visible in the mist. The Russian destroyer on the port side opened fire but i judged her at the time to be the TRINIDAD and did not fire.
At this moment (about 0930) FURY appeared out of the snow ahead at high speed and for some minutes chaos reigned in the destroyer screen, there being cases of mistaken identity.
ORIBI had now returned; as there seemed altogether too many destroyers around the convoy, i decided it would be as well to have a look round Westward at the ship which had come down the port side.
I had by now received the report that TRINIDAD had been hit (FURY's 0927A) this seemed to confirm that the unknown ship was her. I also knew that there was a damaged enemy destroyer about who might be worth beating up. "

http://www.flickr.com/photos/verfain/42 ... 208298506/

Possibly Morozov read that one when he mentioned Fury as possible Target?
There is a problem however, the unknown target is said to have FIRED. And Fury did not. Also Fury is said to have been arrived (and caused chaos among the destroyer formation) from "ahead" was the fire from unknown ship was coming from the "bow" of the formation (the opposite direction)).
The commander raised the possibility that at the time was suspected to be a friendly fire agains the TRINIDAD but the presence of German DDs wasn't noticed by the Eclipse commander at that time (so calling the ship that fired and was fired back "unknown"). So he went to investigate about the identity of the mysterious ship, she get the call that the TRINIDAD has been damaged and so "seemed to confirm that the unknown ship was her". And as we all know, he found the Z-26 !!

Sadlu it's not said clearly, but from this interesting document it's seems clear that FURY was not the target of Sokrushitelnyi fire, And almost surely neither it was the Trinidad (it was a guessing of the British commander, before knowning the presence of the 3 German DDs so close), while honestly it's seems almost that a German destroyer (and more probably the Z-26) was the target of the Soviet fire (and the hit/damage can't be ruled out).

To have a 100% description we should however have the exact location of the Trinidad and the distance and position of the convoy.

[igorr]

I can't see when it is writed that FURY did't fired? There is no mention about fire against ECLIPSE.
As i wrote before, TRINIDAD and FURY goes ahead of convoy and other DD's. And all germans DD including Z.26 was much far from SOKRUSHITELNIY and others to east. There is no such force in world to teleportate DD after 2 minutes for some miles ahead over head of cruiser and FURY.
Z.26 btw was ruined in very first moments of battle, so she can't fire 5th salvoes. Even more, she never can do 5th salvoes because has only 4x15cm. However no one can make such salvoes, even TR. It says many about precision of description made in that battle.

[lupodimare89]

I can't see when it is writed that FURY did't fired?

When it is writed that it DID fire? I've read no mention at it, in engagement description. If you've material that say it, i will be happy to see it. Also if you notice the description, it say clearly that Fury arrived from a different position then the mysterious ship engaged.

There is no mention about fire against ECLIPSE.

What are you speaking about? That is the report of the captain of Eclipse, that reported clearly of an unknown ship firing against her and Soviet DDs. You've read it?

As i wrote before, TRINIDAD and FURY goes ahead of convoy and other DD's.

Fury went ahead, then that Eclipse report say clearly that returned and caused confusions aboung the Eclipse+Sokr+Gre

And all germans DD including Z.26 was much far from SOKRUSHITELNIY and others to east. There is no such force in world to teleportate DD after 2 minutes for some miles ahead over head of cruiser and FURY.

Then what happened according you? A fire against "Nothing"?
If it was only a Soviet claim and nothing else, it could have been a unexistent ship. But if you read that official paper is say clearly that Eclipse noticed the shells fired against them. And from the position there should have not been other British ships.

Also are you exactly sure about the distance? Because again the Eclipse wrote that at the same time Fury returned among them. This is what the official documents of Eclipse say, and they match with the Soviet claim to have received and replied at fire. This event is now confirmed by two sources (Soviet report and Eclipse report) thus making it unlikely to be a simple Soviet invention or exaggeration.

If you have a similar (paper) account of HMS Trinidad, HMS Fury, and the ones of German DDs, they need to be crossed.

[lupodimare89]

Also i've found the clear British hours reported. They say that Trinidad engaged with DDs at 09:43.
This leave enaugh time for the Germans to exchange some shells at Eclipse and Soviet DDs at 09:20 and then move forward and meet the Trinidad

[igorr]

When it is writed that it DID fire? I've read no mention at it, in engagement description.

Nowhere, so we has equal possibilities that ship fired or not fired. But you state she not fired for 100%. We have not Report from FURY, and her action is unclear.

Also if you notice the description, it say clearly that Fury arrived from a different position then the mysterious ship engaged.

??? Did you think that "bow" and "ahead" is opposite? Bow mean forward part of ship, and ahead similarly means forward direction. So this your logical construction totally falsh.

There is no mention about fire against ECLIPSE.

What are you speaking about? That is the report of the captain of Eclipse, that reported clearly of an unknown ship firing against her and Soviet DDs. You've read it?

Read and didn't find nothing about fire against ECLIPSE. Report say that "stray shells", i.e. occidental separate shell fell in some sort vicinity of DD's. No word about fire coming from Warship they see at 20 degrees. I think this separate occidental shells in fact was so called 5th salvoes from soviet report. Don't forget that SOKR. has totally inexperienced crew participated in their very first naval fight. It easy to imagine their state: every flashes seems like fire on you and every splash is shell directed to your ship.

Fury went ahead, then that Eclipse report say clearly that returned and caused confusions aboung the Eclipse+Sokr+Gre

Well during the first stage of battle when T and F meet germans, both ships turned to counter course. No surprise that FURY then moved towards to others. TRINIDAD was then beyond her (headed NW), and Z.26 beyond T.

Then what happened according you? A fire against "Nothing"?

Why nothing? Two ships was ahead SOKR - FURY and TRINIDAD. Soviets fired at one of them. If you read Report of ECLIPSE more carefully you may understand all. It says, that see unknown Warship but identified them as TRINIDAD and not fired ay them. But soviet DD fired, obvious at same target i.e. at TRINIDAD. ("Russian destroyer at port (SOKR.) opened fire but i judged her at the time to be TRINIDAD and did not fire")

If it was only a Soviet claim and nothing else, it could have been a unexistent ship. But if you read that official paper is say clearly that Eclipse noticed the shells fired against them.

It is no such state in Report. Only stray shell and no "fire against ECLIPSE". Must be wide overshot from germans?

And from the position there should have not been other British ships.

You again confused with direction. Did you mess up "bow" and "stern/aft"? F. and T. ALWAYS was ahead/at bow angles from other DD's.

Also are you exactly sure about the distance?

What about it? Distances in this fight was little at second phase (see below).

There is more things. Did you know that british time differ from german to 1 hour? I can't figure how this affected to battle reports. In all cases it is written that fight started 9.43. But in ECLIPSE report in 9.27 T already hit, which happen in 10.24, German time. So i think real first clash have place in 8.43 Greenwich. Then SOKR., ECL. and G. hear second phase of battle when T and F already turned to NW and closes to other DD's. It was 9.20 british, 10.20 german and 11.20 soviet time. Really soviet time must be 12.20 this day but it never fits any variants, so i think for some reason clock at SOKR. has moscow time -1.
There is one more thing. As you know, SOKR. identified target as REDER-class DD (this is from where 5th salvoes come). All we know that Type 1934 has two guns on her bow. As did FURY, as did TRINIDAD (taken in mind poor visibility towers can easily took for guns). But Narvik-class destroyers all has only one gun forward and this is clearly evidence that it can't be target for SOKR. Also Narviks has nice and flaring Atlantic bow - FURY, REDER and TRINIDAD hasn't.

[igorr]

Also i've found the clear British hours reported. They say that Trinidad engaged with DDs at 09:43.
This leave enaugh time for the Germans to exchange some shells at Eclipse and Soviet DDs at 09:20 and then move forward and meet the Trinidad

Where? This is real document, as ECLIPSE report? I think 9.43 is german time. All authors draws it from germans and forget time difference. It happen permanently in history books.
In german docs (i have no DD's KTB but there is account from DD's commander in KTB Admiral Nordmeer) first angagement arise exactly in 9.43. No enemy, no fire before it.
There is sceme of fight in book "Немецкие эсминцы Второй мировой" by Patyanin. I think from some german book. Sadly there is no mention about soviet DD's, but moventment of toher showed good. Alas, i have no scanner to digitize them.

[lupodimare89]

Sorry, not used neither with english term (for this i reversed) and i need minutes for every post wrote in english (and almost the fourfold for russian or german).


However i can say that there is still material to support the Soviet claim:
The identification of the ship attacked by Sokr. as the Trinidad was a first guessing of the Eclipse's captain, he said that when there were already too many destroyers, he went to search the "mysterios" ship (the one attacked by Sokr.), that described "at the ship which had come down at the port side" (i don't think he was speaking of the Oribi that come back from "ahead"). This make clear that it wasn't the Fury (that returned from ahead, so appearing in front of the other destroyers and causing confusion)

Eclipse's captain was going to expect to find the Trinidad, after having identified her as the ship that was attacked by Sokr., and when met the Z-26, at first imagined it was the same Trinidad.

For the Soviet wrong identification of the target, as you pointed it's clear that we can't take it for sure due the weather, and the description may not be precise, however the fact that the whole engagement seems to have happened at the same time it's interesting.

Then SOKR., ECL. and G. hear second phase of battle when T and F already turned to NW and closes to other DD's. It was 9.20 british, 10.20 german and 11.20 soviet time. Really soviet time must be 12.20 this day but it never fits any variants, so i think for some reason clock at SOKR. has moscow time -1.

If that happened during second phase of the battle. With the Z-26 damaged There is another point for the Soviet claim:
From the Eclipse account it's seems clear that the target of the of Sokr. wasn't Fury (it say that return of Fury cause chaos, but it doesn't identify the Fury as the mysterious ship of the Sokr.).

A key thing at this point should be a document of the full account of the Trinidad (more then the Fury) there is one avaible online? Expecially concerning about the position of Trinidad in comparison with the destroyers.
If the Trinidad reported unknown/stray gunfire after he had damaged the Z-26 and was going to torpedo her and AFTER that the Fury left her, this is a clue for Trinidad as the target of Sokrushitelnyi.
If there was nothing, we could guess that Eclipse's misedintification of Z-26 for Trinidad was repeated 2 times.
(and remember that he said "guessed" and "believed" when he identified the Sokr. target as Trinidad, exactly as was sure that the Z-26 was the Trinidad just before fighting her).

The key point should be if the German destroyers actually found themselves in the middle of the Soviet+British destroyers and the Trinidad that was ahead,

Also if the Eclipse sailed to the direction that he expected to find the target of Sokrushitelnyi (believed to meet Trinidad) and met the Z-26 (after having clearly misidentified her for Trinidad, as the captain admitted), why the target of Sokr. could not be a German destroyer or even the same Z-26?
As i said the report of identification of the class from Sokrushitelnyi can be easily unprecise (as sighting of the number of guns) being snow storms during the battle.

[igorr]

If SOKRUSHITELNYI see Z.26 why she didn't see TRINIDAD? Time was almost exact when T. ruined german and make faithful torpedo-shot. You say that same time soviet DD can see and shelled german from some other direction, that exclude T. from sight of soviet gunners... I think it is almost imposible, taken in sight that T. fired from main caliber. SOKR. see enemy in 2.5 km from him so T must be much closer. Moreover as it is said in soviet report, enemy DD hit by TRINIDAD was burned. Ingerman account stated that in first clash cartridges was on fire. SOKR. didn't see any fires on her target. There is no mention about FURY's arriving in 11.20, it s stated that this DD was meet only 1.5 hours later togheter with TR.
Btw i very doubt that TR. or F. can noted fire from SOKR. Heavy sea, rusch moventments, all this make precise shooting in short periods very hard, especially for inexperienced crew. Gunners on SOKR. didn't have chance to practice in shooting no less then 9 month (from war's beginning).
All in all this made very unlikely that SOKR. can see german and fired at him.
Here a primitive sceme made by myself.

[lupodimare89]

If SOKRUSHITELNYI see Z.26 why she didn't see TRINIDAD? Time was almost exact when T. ruined german and make faithful torpedo-shot. You say that same time soviet DD can see and shelled german from some other direction, that exclude T. from sight of soviet gunners... I think it is almost imposible, taken in sight that T. fired from main caliber. SOKR. see enemy in 2.5 km from him so T must be much closer. Moreover as it is said in soviet report, enemy DD hit by TRINIDAD was burned. Ingerman account stated that in first clash cartridges was on fire. SOKR. didn't see any fires on her target.

There is no mention about FURY's arriving in 11.20, it s stated that this DD was meet only 1.5 hours later togheter with TR

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Code: Select all

At this moment (about 0930) FURY appeared out of the snow ahead at high speed and for some minutes chaos reigned in the destroyer screen, there being cases of mistaken identity. 

The text is clear about this point, "at this moment", 10 minutes later after the beginning of Sokrushitelnyi fire. And 2 minutes after (it's wrote 0927A) (what means that "A"?) the communication of the same Fury to Eclipse. (if i'm right with hours)

In your drawing you've put the Fury a bit too much in the exact position of Sokrushitelnyi's target, and that's clearly hard... it said "ahead", while sokr. target was "on port side".

Moreover he also said that the aim of his action on Eclipse was to check what it was the "mysterious ship" that Sokrushitelnyi fired against. He expected to find the Trinidad, and found the Z-26 (if he misleaded the Z-26 for Trinidad the second time, he could have done it the first time too, considering also that it was more distant before:

With your reconstrution it's not exactly clear also what it was the gunfire noticed by Eclipse&Sokrushitelnyi
(also.... if i'm right Sokrushitelnyi wrote more of hits against her, right? Possibly because being on the stern side of Eclipse, was more exposed. It's possible that they were shots of targets).

But... if shells were sighted (and not only "heard"), who fired? At the time of the engagement, (with Z-26 damaged and on retreat), the Z-26 was firing? I don't think (but i'm not sure) and what about Trinidad/Z-26 position?
In the end you've put the Trinidad BETWEEN Z-26 and DDs group, and we know then that Eclipse, sailing in the same direction found the Z-26.
According your reconstrution, Sokrushitelnyi should have received long shells from Z-26 fired on defensive action while retreat, that were aimed to Trinidad. Then why you draw Trinidad making a complete turn and sailing back to previous position? From all accounts it seems clear that Trinidad kept firing until attempt to torpedo the Z-26.
With the time differences of actions, exactly when it happened the self-torpedoing of Trinidad compared with the gunfire of Sokrushitelnyi, before or after?

Also are you sure about the position of Trinidad for the Z-26 point of view? If the Z-26 was in the middle between DDs and Trinidad, are explained the gunfire seen by Sokrushitelnyi (longer rage guns of the cruiser that fall ahead the Z-26) and it also match with the fact that Eclipse sailing there met the Z-26 and not the Trinidad.
(the gunfire noticed by Sokr. it's less explained by your drawing, as the rushed movement of Trinidad that turned back).
But this have to be explained by a key point: from which side the Z-26 (port, starboard or stern) was chased by Trinidad?
Only a german document can solve it. OR a British one of the Trinidad, saying if the Z-26 was chased while visible on bow, port or starboard).
it could help know at least if the Trinidad fire with only frontal guns (that could means that was at the bow of the escaping Z-26, and not on one her sides).

Ingerman account stated that in first clash cartridges was on fire. SOKR. didn't see any fires on her target.

Well.. that's easy to explain due the low visibility.