Russian Army and Red Army Horse drawn wagons and carts

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GregSingh
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Re: Russian Army and Red Army Horse drawn wagons and carts

Post by GregSingh » 13 Dec 2015 09:24

Here are some more.
pulemetnaya dvukolka.jpg
pulemetnaya dvukolka3.jpg
pulemetnaya dvukolka2.jpg
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28juni14
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Re: Russian Army and Red Army Horse drawn wagons and carts

Post by 28juni14 » 13 Dec 2015 17:41

Wonderful! Looking closely you will note the vehicle is not limbered. The top pic, from which I drew the conclusion that they were limbered, shows the cart behind a standard 76.2mm 00/02 limber. It now seems the Germans simply utilized that limber to draw the MG cart off the battlefield.

GregSingh
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Re: Russian Army and Red Army Horse drawn wagons and carts

Post by GregSingh » 14 Dec 2015 00:45

Perhaps the same vehicle (with some modifications to the top) was used as an ammunition cart as shown below?

Also MG cart itself seemed to have more that just one version.
That on German photo has those rails on both sides of MG which allow it to be moved outside the cart - firing position? Rails are missing from other photos, perhaps these were older versions of the MG cart?
двуколка.jpg
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28juni14
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Re: Russian Army and Red Army Horse drawn wagons and carts

Post by 28juni14 » 14 Dec 2015 02:23

I believe you are correct. It appears the team pole was replaced with a draw-bar hitch. It that mode it was limbered to another cart; one of which carried the gun and the other additional ammunition?
Also, note the crews all carry carbines; perhaps these vehicles were organic to Russian cavalry divisions?

GregSingh
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Re: Russian Army and Red Army Horse drawn wagons and carts

Post by GregSingh » 14 Dec 2015 05:08

According to 1912 manual two-wheeled cart was mainly used in infantry units, MG in saddle pack in cavalry.
In 1914 out of 4000+ MGs in Russian Imperial Army only 256 were in cavalry.
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28juni14
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Re: Russian Army and Red Army Horse drawn wagons and carts

Post by 28juni14 » 14 Dec 2015 06:37

Thanks for the additional service information. Can you determine any dimensions, wheel height perhaps ? I find it a most interesting vehicle; worthy of 3D model rendition.

GregSingh
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Re: Russian Army and Red Army Horse drawn wagons and carts

Post by GregSingh » 14 Dec 2015 09:49

Wheel diameter - 48 inches.
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Art
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Re: Russian Army and Red Army Horse drawn wagons and carts

Post by Art » 18 Dec 2015 08:35

If someone it interested - availability of horse drawn wagons in the army on 1 February 1941:
2-horse wagons - 168 300
ambulance carts and wagons - 16 500
1-horse transport carts - 51 500
drugstore carts - 3 500
field kitchens, artillery and infantry types - 8 600
field kitchens, cavalry type - 20 200
Authorized numbers in the war-time army:
2-horse wagons - 257 200
ambulance carts and wagons - 11 200
1-horse transport carts - 25 200
drugstore carts - 3600
field kitchens, artillery and infantry - 14 400
field kitchens, cavalry - 10 200
From memorandum on mobilization plan, February 1941

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Der Alte Fritz
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Re: Russian Army and Red Army Horse drawn wagons and carts

Post by Der Alte Fritz » 18 Dec 2015 10:56

Art
I think it is important. Remember that the United States had 70% of the world's automotive manufacturing capacity and the UK another 15%, so that the rest of Europe had under 15% of the capacity. France, Germany, Italy and the Soviet Union all had to make do with small industries to supply both the civilian and economic spheres and equip mass armies (which neither the United States nor Britain maintained.) of several million men. The number of vehicles to equip these armies was in the millions and would have stretched even the USA. So horse drawn transport was always going to an important, and rarely studied element in the military. This leaves aside the huge demand for oil to run a fully motorised French or German or etc army.

Horses were as important in WW2 as in the Great War.

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Re: Russian Army and Red Army Horse drawn wagons and carts

Post by Art » 21 Dec 2015 15:46

Curious to note that in June 1941 the Soviet Army had 273 thousand automobiles and 498 thousands horses. 6 months later after mobilization there were twice as many men with 317 thousand automobiles (1.01.42, an increase of 13%) and 1390 thousand horses (20.12.42, an increase of 180% over original number). So horses happened to be a less scarce resource whose role in sustaining mobility of mobilized army cannot be underestimated.

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Der Alte Fritz
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Re: Russian Army and Red Army Horse drawn wagons and carts

Post by Der Alte Fritz » 21 Dec 2015 17:02

The USSR had 23 million horses in 1941. The population had been at a high point of 32 million in 1928 and had flourished under the NEP as horse sales were an additional source of income for the farmers and peasants. But the disruption caused by the Collectivisation programme of farms between 1930 and 1932 caused a lot of horses to be slaughtered and the population fell to 16 million by 1933. It grew again slowly with state assistance, such as state stud farms and had recovered 7 million by 1941.

Given the huge demands of the military for motor vehicles, the civilian economy fell back on railway trains and horse drawn vehicles as well to make up the shortfall

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Der Alte Fritz
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Re: Russian Army and Red Army Horse drawn wagons and carts

Post by Der Alte Fritz » 21 Dec 2015 17:42

It is worth noting that estimates for the Germany Army for June 1941 give total number of horses as between 600,000 and 750,000 horses depending on the source.

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Der Alte Fritz
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Re: Russian Army and Red Army Horse drawn wagons and carts

Post by Der Alte Fritz » 23 Dec 2015 18:25

Horse (4).png
Horse (3).png
Horse (1).png
Horse (5).png
Horse (2).png
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Der Alte Fritz
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Re: Russian Army and Red Army Horse drawn wagons and carts

Post by Der Alte Fritz » 23 Dec 2015 18:25

Horse (6).png
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Re: Russian Army and Red Army Horse drawn wagons and carts

Post by 28juni14 » 24 Dec 2015 17:26

Ach Fritz !! Ein juwel !!

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