Was Stalin of Jewish/Hebrew descent ?

[AHLF]

The resemblence between the Miko and Joe Stalin is "interesting".

Does any one have a picture of Stalin's father(?) ( Vissaryon Stalin)?

As far as I know, no such thing in existance.

[lukeo]

Przewalski was living for a short time in Georgia beetween 1878-79. Stalin's moher worked as a maid in hotel that he stayed. The suspition, that Przewalski is Stalin's father is not so new. Stalin's official father, Vissaryon Stalin was an alcoholic, and he and his wife hated themsleslves (marriages were arranged by the parents at that time). Vissaryon was lefting his wife alone multiple times. She was forced to work then on their own in a hotel.

My God! Why no one has intervened on such thing I've written? I've written Vissaryon STALIN!!!
Of course, Stalin is a revolutionary name invented by Stalin himself! His true surname was Djugashvili!!!

My fault!

[AHLF]

Przewalski was living for a short time in Georgia beetween 1878-79. Stalin's moher worked as a maid in hotel that he stayed. The suspition, that Przewalski is Stalin's father is not so new. Stalin's official father, Vissaryon Stalin was an alcoholic, and he and his wife hated themsleslves (marriages were arranged by the parents at that time). Vissaryon was lefting his wife alone multiple times. She was forced to work then on their own in a hotel.

My God! Why no one has intervened on such thing I've written? I've written Vissaryon STALIN!!!
Of course, Stalin is a revolutionary name invented by Stalin himself! His true surname was Djugashvili!!!

My fault!

Now, when you point at it...

[ChristopherPerrien]

Whatever, We know who we are talking about and it is easier to spell. Sorry to aid such a historical mistake by being lazy and making an oversight.

[AHLF]

Whatever, We know who we are talking about and it is easier to spell. Sorry to aid such a historical mistake by being lazy and making an oversight.

Don't take it so seriously.

[ChristopherPerrien]

Whatever, We know who we are talking about and it is easier to spell. Sorry to aid such a historical mistake by being lazy and making an oversight.

Don't take it so seriously.

Actually I am quite impressed how nice and sedate this discussion
is, especially since I started it. It is in many respects it is the anti-thesis to the often "locked' topic "Was Hitler of Jewish/Hebrew descent ?". I guess old blood-thirsty "Uncle Joe" is not taken taken as seriously as blood-thirsty "Uncle Adolf".

[lukeo]

Surely there are no existing photos of Vissaryon. Stalin's family was extremely poor, and they surely hadn't any money for photos.
Even if there really was a photo of Stalin's father, it would be surely destroyed by Stalin himself, since he has cleaned almost all achives and documents concerning his family and himself personally.
Stalin was so effective in cleaning his past, that he coul make corrections in it. For example all believe that he was born in 1879. It's not true. A church book from Gori (Stalin's home city) has miracully survived (I have no idea, why) and says that Josif Djugashvili was born in 1878!!

[ChristopherPerrien]

Surely there are no existing photos of Vissaryon. Stalin's family was extremely poor, and they surely hadn't any money for photos.
Even if there really was a photo of Stalin's father, it would be surely destroyed by Stalin himself, since he has cleaned almost all achives and documents concerning his family and himself personally.
Stalin was so effective in cleaning his past, that he coul make corrections in it. For example all believe that he was born in 1879. It's not true. A church book from Gori (Stalin's home city) has miracully survived (I have no idea, why) and says that Josif Djugashvili was born in 1878!!

Thanks for all the information Lukeo,
Make me wonder more as to why he would do that?

The biggest danger, Is that if Stalin was born a "Jew", it could give
more "validity?" to some very bad tenants of Hitler's and Nazi's beliefs about the alliance of Jews and Communists. This is my "riason de' entre'"
( premise or theory) for starting this topic in the first place.

Disclaimer:
Even if it turns out to be true "Stalin was Jewish", this in itself in no way excuses Nazi actions , it just helps me to see the whole "Eastern War" in a more logical context. If you wonder why I added this you have not been in the forum long enough.

Have a good day!

[lukeo]

In my opinion Stalin was not a Jew. He personally hated Jews, and used them in WW2 only to propagandal purposes. His school friends (it is suprising, that Stalin ddn't killed any of them) were saying (of course after Stalin's death) that he was often taking part in anti-jewish vandalism acts when he was a child. His both parents (of course, if Vissaryon was his true father) were orthodox christians. It was not possible to hide Jewish nationality in that time in that country.
Stalin's personal hatred to Jews was possible also when he was already adult. Many of slauthered party's members were Jews (in ex. Kamieniev, Zinoviev, Trotsky). We also remember the "Jewish doctors' case" from 1952. We also remember that he opposed the idea of Jewish state in Palestine or anywhere else (on Crimean penisula, in Africa, or near Polish city of Dzierzoniov).

A kinda funny is the fact, that Stalin when he was old he started to referr himself that he is Slav. He said "We, proud Slavs" in many occasions. Perhabs he knew about his true father? Mayby Przevalski was his true father???

[ChristopherPerrien]

That is the crux of the question.

However, I would not say Stalin hated jews so therefore he was not one himself. Paranoid Mass killers seldom exclude even their own people, in fact it can be a reason in itself.

I suppose I really need to read more of what Stalin said so I can better understand the man and perhaps understand some of the root causes for his "motivations".

[AHLF]

Surely there are no existing photos of Vissaryon. Stalin's family was extremely poor, and they surely hadn't any money for photos.
Even if there really was a photo of Stalin's father, it would be surely destroyed by Stalin himself, since he has cleaned almost all achives and documents concerning his family and himself personally.
Stalin was so effective in cleaning his past, that he coul make corrections in it. For example all believe that he was born in 1879. It's not true. A church book from Gori (Stalin's home city) has miracully survived (I have no idea, why) and says that Josif Djugashvili was born in 1878!!

Well, for serious Stalin researchers (such as myself, for example )
know this fact for long time. Moreover, Stalin himself wrote this date (December 1878) when was asked to write a short bio for a foreign newspaper in 1921.

[AHLF]

In my opinion Stalin was not a Jew. He personally hated Jews, and used them in WW2 only to propagandal purposes. His school friends (it is suprising, that Stalin ddn't killed any of them) were saying (of course after Stalin's death) that he was often taking part in anti-jewish vandalism acts when he was a child. His both parents (of course, if Vissaryon was his true father) were orthodox christians. It was not possible to hide Jewish nationality in that time in that country.
Stalin's personal hatred to Jews was possible also when he was already adult. Many of slauthered party's members were Jews (in ex. Kamieniev, Zinoviev, Trotsky). We also remember the "Jewish doctors' case" from 1952. We also remember that he opposed the idea of Jewish state in Palestine or anywhere else (on Crimean penisula, in Africa, or near Polish city of Dzierzoniov).

A kinda funny is the fact, that Stalin when he was old he started to referr himself that he is Slav. He said "We, proud Slavs" in many occasions. Perhabs he knew about his true father? Mayby Przevalski was his true father???

Stalin made massive use of jews in the 30es. Half(!) of his peoples' comissars(ministers) were jews, and the every 6th member of the Central Komitee was also of jewish decent. He didn't hate jews as nationality, he just used them in different ways: in the 30es- as his chief assistants in collectivization and the great purges (where they mainly eliminated each other); in the 40es- for propagandal purposes, and for money collection from filantropes, and in the 50es- as those who Stalin could blame for the troubles of the USSR. He died not long before he was able to start massive reprisals against them.

[michael mills]

I have never read such a lot of Polish drivel!

I am presently reading a book on stalinist terror by J. Arch Getty, and it talks about the strange stories that circulated about Stalin, his birth, life and death. Both the tale that he was of Jewish origin and that his father was really Przewalski are mentioned as examples of the legends.

Other fictional tales are that Stalin was descended from Georgian or Ossetian princes, that he had secret wives and the Kremlin was full of his illegitimate children.

What evidence is there for Przewalski having a relationship with Stalin's mother, apart from the fact that he happened to be in Georgia at the time?

The claim that Stalin was anti-Semitic was a falsehood spread by his enemies in the Communist Party, particularly by Trotsky. Many of his rivals for power whom he had killed were indeed Jews, Zinoviev, Kamenev, Trotsky etc; but that was just because a disproportionate number of the Old Bolsheviks were of Jewish origin. He also killed his non-Jewish rivals, such as Bukharin.

The fact is that Stalin neither hated nor loved any particular person, or race, or group of people. He used individuals, groups and nations for his own purposes, and when he no longer had any need for them, he cast them aside and destroyed them as potential rivals. That is why he liquidated the members of the Jewish Anti-Fascist Committee soon after the end of the war.

But at the same time as he was suppressing Zionism at home as a dangerous rival for the loyalty of the Soviet Jews, he was supplying arms, aircraft and trained men to the new Jewish state in Palestine, which he saw as a potential force against the British domination of the Middle East.

And the tales that Stalin was preparing a purge of the Soviet Jewish population just before his death are falsehoods invented by his successors, as part of their effort to rescue the Communist system by blaming all its crimes on the "deformation" by Stalin.

[AHLF]

...
And the tales that Stalin was preparing a purge of the Soviet Jewish population just before his death are falsehoods invented by his successors, as part of their effort to rescue the Communist system by blaming all its crimes on the "deformation" by Stalin.

Can you call an old jewish man which I had known(he died in 1997), hero of USSR, a "Stalin successor"? I think not. Once he told me about how he saw Stalin's plans of jewish deportation. He lived in the Lithuania then(1953), and as part of his job, he was inspecting railway stations. In one of the stations, it's director who believed him to be of lithuanian decent called him aside, and showed him some dozens of empty cattle train cars.
With a vicious smile he said:"It's for those jews. Comrad Stalin wants to take a good care of them!" And burst with laughing.

What can you counter to this story?

[michael mills]

AHLF wrote:

Can you call an old jewish man which I had known(he died in 1997), hero of USSR, a "Stalin successor"? I think not. Once he told me about how he saw Stalin's plans of jewish deportation. He lived in the Lithuania then(1953), and as part of his job, he was inspecting railway stations. In one of the stations, it's director who believed him to be of lithuanian decent called him aside, and showed him some dozens of empty cattle train cars.
With a vicious smile he said:"It's for those jews. Comrad Stalin wants to take a good care of them!" And burst with laughing.

What can you counter to this story?

Easy. I can counter with disciplined historical research.

I suggest consulting the book "Out of the red shadows : anti-semitism in Stalin's Russia", by Gennadi Kostyrchenko, published in 1995.

Kostyrchenko thoroughly analysed the claim that Stalin was planning the mass deportation of the Jews of the European part of the Soviet Union to Birobidjan or other destinations in Siberia, and concluded that there is no documentary evidence whatever for it. If a deportation had been planned, then there would have been many documentary traces, in particular of logistical preparations, but such traces do not exist.

Kostyrchenko also found that, apart from popular rumour, thge claim had been made by people like Malen'kov, in an obvious attempt to blacken Stalin's name and justify the process of destalinisation that was just beginning, and was difficult for the general population to comprehend. Given the official Soviet culture of philosemitism, and the decades of official condemnation of anti-Semitism, such an accusation against Stalin was particularly potent.

The account given above is a typical example of urban myth, eg a little old Jew told me that some Lithuanian told him etc etc. It cannot be given any sort of weight in comparison with documentary evidence.

There is a number of ways in which the above urban myth could have arisen:

1. The little old Jew invented it.

That is entirely possible, and the psychological motivation for it is comprehensible. The German persecution, which had destroyed some 1.5 million Jews on Soviet territory, lay only a few years in the Past, and had had a permanent effect on the way of thinking of the Jewish population.

It was common for Jews to think that the whole Gentile world was against them, and was plotting their destruction. Such a concept of course received massive reinforcement from experience of the degree to which Lithuanians and other parts of the Soviet population were willing to collaborate with the German occupiers in the destruction of the Jews. Furthermore, Soviet Jews were well aware that, despite the official repression of anti-Semitism (which in fact carried the death penalty in the Soviet Union), anti-Jewish sentiment had merely gone underground and was wide-spread among the Soviet population, even if not openly expressed.

The above factors, coupled with rumours that spread at the time, coupled with the later official condemnation of Stalin by the Soviet Government, could well have led this Jewish Hero of the Soviet Union to believe in the reality of a plan by Stalin to deport him and his fellow Jews to Siberia. After all, many parts of the population, including famous Communists, had fallen victim to Stalin's purges, and this person would have known that being a Hero of the Soviet Union, or any other high position, was no protection against Stalin's suspicious mind and ruthless nature.

If the little old Jew did make the story up, that does not mean that he was consciously lying. He most probably believed that there was such a plan, for the reasons outlined above, and saw this story, even if not literally true, as illustrative of something he believed to be true, or wished to be true.

2. The event recounted by the Jew actually did happen.

That is equally possible. In this case, the station director would have been passing on to the Jew a rumour that he had heard, and that he (the director) wished to be true.

It appears that in 1953 there were wide-spread rumours of an impending purge of the Soviet Jewish population. There are a number of reasons why that would be so. In the first place, there was a deep-seated anti-Jewish prejudice throughout wide sectors of the population, even though it was officially repressed and could not be expressed openly. Secondly, the population had experienced only a few years previously the deportation to Siberia and Central Asia of whole ethnic minorities, eg the Volga Germans, the Crimean Tartars, the Chechen and Ingush, which established a precedent, and created in the public mind the impression that a similar deportation of the Jewish minority was entirely possible.

Furthermore, there were strong psychological reasons why such rumours would have been especially prevalent in Lithunia, and why Lithuanians would have wanted to believe them. In 1940 and 1941, the Lithuanians had experienced the horror of Soviet occupation, which involved mass deportations and persecution; the Jewish minority was to a large extent blamed for an alleged complicity in the occupation, and for collaboration. Then there had been wide-spread Lithuanian collaboration with the subsequent German occupation, including approval of and collaboration in the almost total extermination of the Jews who did not flee with the retreating Soviet occupiers.

After the Soviet reconquest of Lithuania, the official line spread by the Soviet Government was that the Lithuanian people had been liberated from the Fascist tyranny, and that they had been victims and/or heroic resisters, only a few having been traitorous collaborators. No doubt the bulk of the Lithuanian people bought that official line, as a means of escaping from their embarassing immediate Past, and Stalin now became in their eyes a "good guy".

Therefore, in the mind of the Lithuanian station director, there must have been a number of different factors at play that led him to repeat the story of the forthcoming deportation of the Jews as a form of wish-fulfilment.

On the one hand, he was no doubt, like most Lithuanians, prejudiced against Jews, and held them responsible for the misfortune that had befallen his country. No doubt he had welcomed the German persecution of the Jews in Lithuania, and may even have collaborated with them at a low level. For those reasons, he would have been inclined to wish for a renewed persecution of the Jews, and have been ready to believe that one was on the way.

On the other hand, he must have grasped the lifeline of the official Soviet attitude toward the Lithuanian people, which allowed them to be regarded once again as good Soviet citizens, and now viewed Stalin as a good person, a friend of the Lithuanian people who had their best interest at heart. No doubt, in his mind the persecution that had accompanied the first Soviet occupation in 1940 was the fault of the Jews, not of Stalin. That was a very common phenomenon among the common people of the Soviet Union; Stalin was not blamed for the repressions but rather his subordinates, and when Stalin purged those subordinates at various times (eg the execution of NKVD leaders, first Iagoda and then Ezhov), that was interpreted by the people as the "good" Stalin unmasking and punishing his "bad" subordinates who had done evil things behind his back.

Therefore, it is entirely possible that the Lithuanian station director believed that the "good" Stalin was about to punich the "bad" Jews, something which the director secretly desired.

Whichever of the above two scenarios is correct, the tale told by the old Jewish Hero of the Soviet Union is not hard evidence. It is simply an urban myth driven by wish-fulfilment.[/quote]