Interesting thread on Ammunition consumption

Discussions on all aspects of the USSR, from the Russian Civil War till the end of the Great Patriotic War and the war against Japan. Hosted by Art.
Michael Kenny
Member
Posts: 6324
Joined: 07 May 2002 19:40
Location: Teesside

Re: Interesting thread on Ammunition consumption

Post by Michael Kenny » 11 Nov 2018 18:08

Average daily ammunition expenditures for the 2nd Infantry Division, 24 August—20 September 1944 (28-day period):

Cal. 30 Carbine - 1,441.07
Cal. 30 Ball, 5 clip (BAR) - 1,553.57
Cal. 30 Ball, 8 clip (M1 rifle) - 22,050.29
Cal. 30 Ball, MG - 16,491.07
Cal. 45 Ball (M1911, M1 & M3 SMGs) - 3,578.57
Cal. 50 MG - 12,620.71

Rocket, AT HE (bazooka rounds) - 41.68
Grenade, Hand, frag. - 423.29
Adapter, Grenade Proj. - 77.93
Grenade, Rifle, Smoke, W.P. - 16.29
Grenade, Offensive (concussion) - 16.04
Grenade, smoke & colored-smoke - 37.61
Grenade, Rifle, Antitank - 89.57

60mm mortar shells - 826.71
81mm mortar shells - 1,367.04
57mm antitank rounds - 65.07
105mm howitzer, M3 - 408.25
105mm howitzer, M2 - 1,896.84
155mm howitzer, M1 - 471.82

Average daily ammunition expenditures for the 90th Infantry Division, 1—31 July 1944 (31-day period):

Cal. 30 Carbine - 7,251.52
Cal. 30 Ball, 5 clip (BAR) - 9,855.23
Cal. 30 Ball, 8 clip (M1 rifle) - 27,885.90
Cal. 30 Ball, MG - 30,382.90
Cal. 45 Ball (M1911, M1 & M3 SMGs) - 2,611.39
Cal. 50 MG - 2,627.39

Rocket, AT HE (bazooka rounds) - 42.71
Grenade, Hand, frag. - 512.06
Adapter, Grenade Proj. - 17.19
Grenade, Rifle, Smoke, W.P. - 74.52

60mm mortar shells - 511.77
81mm mortar shells - 2,209.55
57mm antitank rounds - 65.48
105mm howitzer rounds, M3 - 450.77
105mm howitzer rounds, M2 - 2,577.81
155mm howitzer rounds, M1 - 346.81

Art
Forum Staff
Posts: 5547
Joined: 04 Jun 2004 19:49
Location: Moscow, Russia

Re: Interesting thread on Ammunition consumption

Post by Art » 26 Dec 2018 10:39

Another exercise with stats. This time German expenditure in 1943.

Average number of weapons on Eastern Front in 1943 (calculated from NARA T78 R726):
8-cm mortars - 7826
12-cm mortars - 330
7.5-cm Pak 40 - 1400
8.8-cm Pak 43/41 - 292
7.5-cm Le.I.G.18 - 1935
15-cm s.I.G.33 - 615
7.5-cm Geb.G.36 - 115
10.5-cm Geb.H. 40 - 15
le.F.H. (105-mm) - 3579
s.F.H. (150-mm) - 1108
10-cm F.K. 18 - 350
17-cm K. - 44
21-cm Mrs. 18 - 182

Also some numbers of self-propelled versions were available in addition to towed, but I don't have exact numbers and assume that they were relatively small (10-15% probably)

Assuming expenditure on the Eastern Front equal to 90% of the total I arrive to the following average expenditures per barrel per day:

8-cm mortars - 3.7
12-cm mortars - 1.6
7.5-cm Pak 40 - 5.7
8.8-cm Pak 43/41 - 1.4
7.5-cm Le.I.G.18 - 9.9
15-cm s.I.G.33 - 6.0
7.5-cm Geb.G.36 - 16.3
10.5-cm Geb.H. 40 - 11.3
le.F.H. (105-mm) - 17.9
s.F.H. (150-mm) - 14.4
10-cm F.K. 18 - 13.4
17-cm K. - 6.5
21-cm Mrs. 18 - 5.5

The numbers are rough estimates and shouldn't be viewed as exact. It's curious to note how the numbers of barrels decreased compared with what was available two years earlier:
https://image.ibb.co/f0ArdT/German_ammo_consumption.png

Stiltzkin
Member
Posts: 1066
Joined: 11 Apr 2016 12:29
Location: Germany

Re: Interesting thread on Ammunition consumption

Post by Stiltzkin » 26 Dec 2018 23:05

The numbers are rough estimates and shouldn't be viewed as exact. It's curious to note how the numbers of barrels decreased compared with what was available two years earlier:
Do the values in the table refer to "Feldheer Osten" or Bestand des Heeres?

Art
Forum Staff
Posts: 5547
Joined: 04 Jun 2004 19:49
Location: Moscow, Russia

Re: Interesting thread on Ammunition consumption

Post by Art » 27 Dec 2018 09:55

Ges.-Bestand Osten

Hanny
Banned
Posts: 855
Joined: 26 Oct 2008 20:40

Re: Interesting thread on Ammunition consumption

Post by Hanny » 16 Jan 2019 08:32

Art wrote:
11 Jun 2018 09:58
Ok, some little exercise with numbers. German ammunition expenditure on the Eastern Front in 1941 (22.06-31.12) from KTB OKW Vol.I by major types:

37-mm AT gun - 2 778 000
50-mm AT gun - 303 000
50-mm mortar - 2 977 000
81-mm mortar - 3 119 000
75-mm light infantry gun - 2 673 000
150-mm heavy infantry guns - 457 000
75-mm mountain gun 36 - 83 000
105-mm light field howitzer - 8 297 000
150-mm heavy field howitzer - 2 441 000
105-mm gun - 684 000
150-mm gun - 55 000
210-mm Morser (heavy howitzer) - 137 000
Does anyone have a 1941 breakdown for SU munition expenditure?, so as to compare like for like in the same time frame. If it includes small arms expenditure that would also be of use, as 41 data lacks that while 42/45 is in the thread/links already.

Its all in a google doc for those interested.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

Hanny
Banned
Posts: 855
Joined: 26 Oct 2008 20:40

Re: Interesting thread on Ammunition consumption

Post by Hanny » 16 Jan 2019 10:17

Weapon system/rnds fired/weight of munition in lbs.

German ammunition expenditure on the Eastern Front in 1941 (22.06-31.12) from KTB OKW Vol.I
37-mm AT gun - 2778000*1.5=4167000
50-mm AT gun - 303000*4.5=1363500
50-mm mortar - 2977000*2.2=6549400
81-mm mortar - 3119000*7.7=24016300
75-mm light infantry gun - 2673000*12=32076000
150-mm heavy infantry guns - 457000*84=38388000
75-mm mountain gun 36 - 83000*6=498000
105-mm light field howitzer - 8297000*33=273801000
150-mm heavy field howitzer - 2441000*96=234336000
105-mm gun - 684000*33=22572000
150-mm gun - 55000*96=5280000
210-mm Morser (heavy howitzer) - 137000*250=34250000

Yes there is a range of AP HE shell weight, but we dont have that data.
Total weight 677297200 lbs, is 338648 tons.
Time frame 192 days, 1763.8 tons a day expended.

Number of Div 146. 12 tons per day per Div.

This a lower number than i would have expected.

Soviet ammunition expenditure in 1943 (from Isayev):
45-mm AT gun - 12 429000*3.2=1372800
50-mm mortar - 11 207000*2=414000
82-mm mortar - 37 808000*7.2=5817600
120-mm mortar - 10 887000*35=31045000
76-mm regimental gun - 67610000*13=878930000
76-mm divisional gun - 20781000*13=270153000
122-mm howitzer - 5745000*48=275760000
152-mm howitzer - 935000*96=89760000
122-mm gun - 701000*48=33648000
152-mm howitzer-gun - 2364000*96=226944000
203-mm howitzer - 217000*220=47740000

Total qweight 1861584400/2000 is 930792.2 tons.
Time frame 365 days, is 2550.1 tons a day.

Again this appears low.
Last edited by Hanny on 16 Jan 2019 16:36, edited 1 time in total.
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

Hanny
Banned
Posts: 855
Joined: 26 Oct 2008 20:40

Re: Interesting thread on Ammunition consumption

Post by Hanny » 16 Jan 2019 16:31

Link in op gives us the following for 42

SU
31078000*.5=15539000 20 mm push. ShVAK
6140000*3.2=19648000 45-mm cannon
50000*13=650000 57 mm cannon
5063000*13=65819000 76 mm regimental
654000*13=8502000 76 mm mountain
10024000*13=130312000 76 mm divisional
599000*48=28752000 122 mm cannon
4306000*48=206688000 122 mm howitzer.
706000*96=67776000 152 mm howitz.
1508000*96=144768000 152 mm howit.-push.
107000*220=23540000 203 mm howit.
13144000*2=26288000 50 mm mines/Morters
15145000*7.7=116616500 82 mm mines
294000*28=8232000 107 mm mines
3008000*35=105280000 120 mm mines
Small arms all small arms weight is 100 per type.
22843700*5=114218500 7.62 mm screw chuck
168770000*2.5=421925000 62 mm Nagan
569322000*5= 28466100007.62 mm TT
11311000*5=56555000 12.7 mm DShK
9154000*6=54924000 14.5 mm PTR

Total weight in lbs 4462643000 in tons 2231321.
Time frame 365 days, 6113 tons a day.

Germany
3953000*1.5=5929500 3.7-cm Pak of all types
1915000*4.5=8617500 5-cm Pak of all types
415000*5=2075000 7.5-cm Pak of all types
6200000*12=74400000 7.5-cm leIG
1116000*93=103788000 15-cm sIG
662000*12=7944000 GebG36
17751000*33=585783000 10-cm leFH18
1210000*40=48400000 10-cm K18
4482000*96=430272000 15 cm sFH18
339000*250=84750000 21-cm Moerser
25000*38=950000 17-cm K in Mrs.Laf.
8647000*4.5=38911500 5-cm mortar Gr.W.36
9605000*7.7=73958500 8-cm mortar Gr.W.34
Small arms
28302750*6=169816500 carbines and machine guns
2164150*3=6492450 pistols and pistols guns

Total weight in lbs 2227870950 in tons 1113935.
Time frame 365 days, 3051 tons a day.
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

Art
Forum Staff
Posts: 5547
Joined: 04 Jun 2004 19:49
Location: Moscow, Russia

Re: Interesting thread on Ammunition consumption

Post by Art » 16 Jan 2019 19:25

Hanny wrote:
16 Jan 2019 08:32
Does anyone have a 1941 breakdown for SU munition expenditure?
Expenditure in 1941 by type in thousands (total incl. losses/battle expenditure on the front)
Rifle ammo - 2 604 277/854 365
Pistol ammo (TT) - 537 378/177 226
DShK (12.7mm) - 10 642/3 298
AT rifles (14.5mm) - 720/198
Hand grenades - 39 514/10 879
50-mm mortars - 7 464/4 063
82-mm mortars - 8 408/2800
107-mm mortars - 242/141
120-mm mortars - 772/504
25-mm anti-aircraft - 260/150
37-mm AA - 4 961/2 659
76-mm AA - 6 749/1 904
85-mm AA - 2478/832
45-mm anti-tank - 12 092/4 744
57-mm AT - 435/34
76-mm mountain - 647/364
76-mm regimental guns - 4 822/2 210
76-mm divisional guns - 4 812/2 470
107-mm guns - 431/226
122-mm howitzers - 4 106/1 784
122-mm guns - 579/250
152-mm howitzers - 1 246/629
152-mm howitzers-guns - 1 184/580
203-mm howitzers - 66/15
From http://soldat.ru/doc/mobilization/mob/table43.html

Hanny
Banned
Posts: 855
Joined: 26 Oct 2008 20:40

Re: Interesting thread on Ammunition consumption

Post by Hanny » 17 Jan 2019 10:18

Thank you Art.

SU compared to German
50-mm mortars
82-mm mortars
107-mm mortars
120-mm mortars
45-mm anti-tank
57-mm AT
76-mm mountain
76-mm regimental guns
76-mm divisional guns
107-mm guns
122-mm howitzers
122-mm guns
152-mm howitzers
152-mm howitzers-guns
203-mm howitzers

Comes out to 177196.4 tons, and 922 a day.

German
1941 1764
1942 3051
SU
1941 922
1942 6113
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

Hanny
Banned
Posts: 855
Joined: 26 Oct 2008 20:40

Re: Interesting thread on Ammunition consumption

Post by Hanny » 17 Jan 2019 10:47

Some comparisons with basic combat loads.

German ID 1941 Firepower in weight of shells.
6.2 tons
German Pzr Div 1941
7.4 tons.

Germanys problem therefore was it expended 2 basic combat loads a day ( 12 tons) and could resupply on average half ( due to distance to rail dead and depots) what it had planned on spending which was 6.2 tons.

SU 1941 ID 5/41 TOE
4.3 tons
SU 1941 ID 7/41 TOE
1.4 tons
SU 1941 ID 12/41 TOE
2.4 tons
SU 1941 ID 3/42 TOE
2.7 tons
SU 1941 ID 7/42 TOE
3 tons
SU 1941 ID 12/42 TOE
4 tons
SU 1941 ID Guards TOE
4.3
SU INF Brigade
1.8 Tons
SU Tnk Brigade
1.5 Tons
SU Mech Bigade
2.1
SU Tank Corps
9.3 ton
SU Mech Corps
12.2 tons
SU Cav Corps
9.7 tons
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

Hanny
Banned
Posts: 855
Joined: 26 Oct 2008 20:40

Re: Interesting thread on Ammunition consumption

Post by Hanny » 21 Feb 2019 09:48

How much ammo interested me.
Each Div at front excepted to have a basic combat load
Basic combat load (Gew 98 5.8 lbs weight for 100 rnds/carried at Bttn/Reg/Div supply 261 rnds).
weight of combat load 15 lbs.Individual load 60 rnds.

104 ID 8000 Riflemen 832000 total
19AD 5500 104500
15Mot 7000 105000
3E 1000 3000

Total rifle equipped on East front:1044500
Einsatzgruppe:3000


Basic combat load for East Front in weight:1044500*15lbs=15667500lbs, or 7834 tons.
Basic combat load for East Front in rnds:1044500*261=272614500 rnds.
Munition expenditure per year, 850000000=3.1 combat loads.
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

User avatar
Sheldrake
Member
Posts: 2445
Joined: 28 Apr 2013 17:14
Location: London

Re: Interesting thread on Ammunition consumption

Post by Sheldrake » 21 Feb 2019 12:55

Art wrote:
11 Nov 2018 16:33
Thanks, so, again, relatively small mortar ammunition consumption compared with "normal" artillery. Can I ask about the source?
Hastings hasn't identified a specific source, but the daily consumption figures are in line with the rates given in the Administrative History of 21st Army Group published as a restricted document in Germany in 1945.
https://cheap-library.com/book/3cba50a4 ... a72db547e4

This quotes pre D Day planning figures for rounds per gun per day for artillery of 25pdr:62, 105mm:66, 5.5":50 155mm:33 7.2":35
and for mortars 2":10 3":20 4.2":16. In November 1944 the figures were revised - to add 25 white star illum per day for 2" Mortar, reduce the proportion of smoke to HE for 3" and double 4,2" to 32, The artillery figures were roughly the same, but 20 rpg per day HE was assigned to the 3.7" HAA for ground shooting.

So before D Day the British planned to fire about two or three times as many artillery rounds per gun per day as they did mortar rounds. After six months on campaign the only changes were to double the ammunition for the 4.2" mortars and a generous allowance for illumination at platoon level - while adding 20 rpg per day to the hundreds of 3.7" general purpose flak guns.

If this proportion is different to other nationalities it may reflect the British overall strategy of expending steel to save blood.

British field artillery was an industrial process controlled by a flexible C3 designed to deliver shells at speed and accuracy in concentrations across the battlefield, supported by a robust logistic system. Liberal application of multi-battery missions would use the daily allocation. 20 missions @ three rounds gunfire?

Mortars aren't concentrated in quite the same way. While in the front line expenditure might be higher than the planned daily rate, but when in reserve its nil. The infantry lacked the logistics to carry more. E.g. 2" mortar is a platoon weapon. If a platoon expends 35 x 2" mortar bombs per day everyone is carrying one. The 3" mortars were battalion weapons served by a mortar platoon. A much smaller organisation to sustain a similar number of barrels to a six gun artillery battery - but half the battery is dedicated to ammunition resupply

Art
Forum Staff
Posts: 5547
Joined: 04 Jun 2004 19:49
Location: Moscow, Russia

Re: Interesting thread on Ammunition consumption

Post by Art » 23 Feb 2019 08:59

There is another dimension in it. Mortar round is lighter and consumes less metal and powder than rifled artillery round of the same caliber. The mortar itself is a way lighter and cheaper. So economy-wise mortars offer some considerable advantage.

Art
Forum Staff
Posts: 5547
Joined: 04 Jun 2004 19:49
Location: Moscow, Russia

Re: Interesting thread on Ammunition consumption

Post by Art » 23 Feb 2019 18:09

Soviet normal rate of expenditure established in 1941 and used for production and stockpiles planning before the war:
http://www.soldat.ru/doc/mobilization/mob/table02.html

37-mm AA gun - 6000 rounds annually/16.4 daily
45-mm AT gun - 4800/13.2
45-mm tank gun - 6000/16.4
76-mm regimental/divisional gun - 6000/16.4
76-mm mountain gun - 4500/12.3
76-mm tank guns - 2400/6.6
76-85-mm AA gun - 5040/13.8
107-mm guns - 4800/13.2
122-mm gun - 3840/10.5
122-mm howitzer - 4860-5280/13.3-14.5
152-mm howitzer 4320/11.8
152-mm howitzer-gun - 4800/13.2
152-mm gun - 1920/5.3
203-mm howitzer - 1920/5.3
210-mm gun - 900/2.5
280-mm howitzer - 1020/2.8
305-mm howitzer - 900/2.5

Which seems to be far larger than "historical" rate of expenditure in the second half of the war.

Stiltzkin
Member
Posts: 1066
Joined: 11 Apr 2016 12:29
Location: Germany

Re: Interesting thread on Ammunition consumption

Post by Stiltzkin » 24 Feb 2019 02:26

If this proportion is different to other nationalities it may reflect the British overall strategy of expending steel to save blood.
Except they failed, the daily casualty rate per division (in relation to enemy strength) was similar to WW1. They just faced less troops (1/7 of the value). With higher motorization and better infrastructure, there is little to no reason to put the main emphasis on mortars.
There is another dimension in it. Mortar round is lighter and consumes less metal and powder than rifles artillery round of the same caliber. The mortar itself is a way lighter and cheaper. So economy-wise mortars offer some considerable advantage.
Cost effectiveness and mobility, but you will sacrifice firepower. Ideally you need to find the golden middle, too much may slow you down, while too little may increase sustained losses. Raising any value beyond necessary levels has diminishing returns, you need to hit more in order to suffer less.
There is also another factor to consider: Quality. Subpar ammunition will translate into misfires.

Return to “The Soviet Union at War 1917-1945”