Cadet regiments in Stalingrad Front 1942

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Kelvin
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Cadet regiments in Stalingrad Front 1942

#1

Post by Kelvin » 09 Dec 2018, 14:41

I see Soviet Staingrad Front in Aug/Sept 1942 had many school units : at least have 7 units :

Ordzhonikidze No. 1, No, 2 and No.3 Infantry School Cadet Regiments

Gronzy Infantry School Cadet regiment

Zhitomir Infantry School Cadet regiment

Vinnitsa Infantry School Cadet Regiment

Krasnador Machine Gun and Mortar School

Why Soviet did not organized it as Rifle divisin but used them as separate unit ? Thank


I also see many School units in defence of Caucasus in 1942, Rostov Artillery School 's 2000 men cadet took part in defence of Mosdak and some detachement from Rostov Artillery Schook, Novocherkassk Cavalry School, Poltava Armor technical School, and Ordzhonikidze Infantry School for defence of Mineralnye Vody, are they reorganized as RD ?

I see Soviet 413rd Rifle Division was composed of Blagoveschensk Infantry
School, Kharbarovsk Infantry School and Vladivostok Artilllery Academy Cadet Regiments, Another division also like that ? Thank

Dann Falk
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Re: Cadet regiments in Stalingrad Front 1942

#2

Post by Dann Falk » 10 Dec 2018, 21:14

The_64th_Army_at_Sta_Cover_for_Kindle.jpg
Greetings,

You are correct. In mid July 42, the 64th Army had four cadet Regiments assigned to it. At the same time the 62nd Army had similar number assigned. Let me quote from my new book "The 64th Army at Stalingrad 1942-1943" Page 62-63.

"Finally, the four Cadet Rifle Regiments (officer cadets) assigned to the 64 also came from the south having been formed in the North Caucasus. These regiments came from the Zhitomir & Krasnodar machine-gun and mortar schools, and the 1 & 3 Ordzhonikidze infantry military schools. All four of these regiments were initially assigned to the 64th Army but by August 1 one of the Ordzhonikidze regiments would be transferred to the 62nd Army. Each regiment would require 2-3 trains to make the move and contained between 2,000-2,500 cadets. One of these school units received its transfer orders on the night of July 10. School personnel, staff and cadets, were called together and the announcement was made, everyone then promptly started preparing to move to the Stalingrad Front by rail, most likely leaving the next day. As some cadets had said, they “hurried to Stalingrad “. These officer cadets would ultimately pay a terrible price in blood during the coming battle. One veteran comments “Only an extreme need forced Stavka to throw these incompletely trained cadets, tomorrows lieutenants into battle.”

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Kelvin
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Re: Cadet regiments in Stalingrad Front 1942

#3

Post by Kelvin » 11 Dec 2018, 10:29

Hi, Dann Falk, thank for your information. Ordzhonikidze No. 3 Infantry school and Gronzy Infantry school Cadets also shown on 64th Army OOB on 03rd Sept 1942.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Cadet regiments in Stalingrad Front 1942

#4

Post by Sid Guttridge » 11 Dec 2018, 14:34

Hi Guys,

Only an extreme need forced Stavka to throw these incompletely trained cadets, tomorrows lieutenants into battle.” reminds me of a couple of related comments.

A US general in the first Gulf War commented that using training schools in combat was like eating seed corn intended for next year's crop.

The German Ersatzheer repeatedly had to send Lehr units to the front and deploy training units on occupation duties, all of which were detrimental to their primary function.

Albert Speer similarly commented that the 12th W-SS Hitler Jugend Division represented the waste of a lot of future junior leadership material.

And of course in 1914 the Germans suffered the "kindermord" of under trained university students who might later have proved useful junior officers.

Necessity seems to have forced short term expediency to trump longer term advantage in more cases than just this particular Soviet incidence.

Cheers,

Sid.

Art
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Re: Cadet regiments in Stalingrad Front 1942

#5

Post by Art » 11 Dec 2018, 22:07

Sid Guttridge wrote:
11 Dec 2018, 14:34
Necessity seems to have forced short term expediency to trump longer term advantage in more cases than just this particular Soviet incidence.
The reality is that more than half of cadets that ever entered Soviet infantry schools were not commissioned but were assigned as privates/sergeants to newly formed units or sent as replacements to the front. The official publications "Military cadres of the Soviet state..." gives the following numbers:
All infantry schools took 912 thousand men during the war
of them 394 thousand graduated and were commissioned
450 thousand were sent as replacements to the army
The balance are apparently transfers, unaccounted losses etc.
In 1941-42 the ratio was even higher. Other types of officers schools included (armor, artillery, naval etc) about 480 000 cadets were taken as replacements. The practice was discontinued only in 1943.
"One can make a conclusion that there was no need to have such a large capacity of infantry schools and maintain a colossal training apparatus for them"

Art
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Re: Cadet regiments in Stalingrad Front 1942

#6

Post by Art » 11 Dec 2018, 23:01

Kelvin wrote:
09 Dec 2018, 14:41
Why Soviet did not organized it as Rifle divisin but used them as separate unit ?
Because schools didn't have necessary specialist and equipment?
According to this document schools were reorganized according to the shtat 04/200 (rifle regiment of the rifle division from March 1942):
https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=135232317

Kelvin
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Re: Cadet regiments in Stalingrad Front 1942

#7

Post by Kelvin » 12 Dec 2018, 05:46

Art wrote:
11 Dec 2018, 23:01
Kelvin wrote:
09 Dec 2018, 14:41
Why Soviet did not organized it as Rifle divisin but used them as separate unit ?
Because schools didn't have necessary specialist and equipment?
According to this document schools were reorganized according to the shtat 04/200 (rifle regiment of the rifle division from March 1942):
https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=135232317
HI, Art, thank , is it 413rd RD is only divison formd from Cadet regiments ?

And obviously, in Stalingrad had many many cadet regiment than normal OOB ? is right ?

Art
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Re: Cadet regiments in Stalingrad Front 1942

#8

Post by Art » 12 Dec 2018, 10:06

"413 Rifle Division was formed according to the order of the Far East Front's military council on 28 July 1941 from elements of the 27 Replacement Rifle Brigade...Until 1 September 1941 the division was receiving reservists from the Siberian and Central Asia Military Districts, part of them served in the regular army, part in the territorial units, and part - didn't have any military training"
https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=454411438
And obviously, in Stalingrad had many many cadet regiment than normal OOB ?

What is "normal OOB" exactly?

Kelvin
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Re: Cadet regiments in Stalingrad Front 1942

#9

Post by Kelvin » 12 Dec 2018, 12:06

Hi, Art, thank, and I see OOB of Kursk does not see cadet regiment.

What I see in other OOB is in Leningrad Front in Sept 1941, I see it have Leningrad Kirov Infantry School cadet regiment and Leningrad Artillery School cadet regiment

Art
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Re: Cadet regiments in Stalingrad Front 1942

#10

Post by Art » 12 Dec 2018, 18:07

Kelvin wrote:
12 Dec 2018, 12:06
Hi, Art, thank, and I see OOB of Kursk does not see cadet regiment.
And why should you? It was an exceptional and desperate step which was not repeated anymore.

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