Sub K-51

Discussions on all aspects of the USSR, from the Russian Civil War till the end of the Great Patriotic War and the war against Japan. Hosted by Art.
jringbom
Member
Posts: 47
Joined: 14 Sep 2016 10:40
Location: sweden

Sub K-51

Post by jringbom » 25 Feb 2019 15:27

Hi!
Just found this strange info on the K-51 on wikipedia about a vessel sunk by the K-51
See below.

12 January 1945 Ib Sweden 15 GRT Fishing boat (artillery)

I cant find any swedish source on this. No fishing boat missing either. And since theres no position is hard to know where to start. Does anybody know more about this incident? Or didnt it occur? Where was the K-51 on the 12 of january? ( Miss spelled? Its at strange name "Ib" since it doesnt mean anything relevant in swedish, I. E. its not a name that I have ever heard.) Cheers, J

Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_submarine_K-51

lupodimare89
Member
Posts: 462
Joined: 07 Mar 2013 01:32

Re: Sub K-51

Post by lupodimare89 » 26 Feb 2019 01:26

It is one of the many discrepancies/mistakes on uboat.net. A good site to start getting a general idea in english, but ultimately surpassed by others.
K-51 ended her first-ever war patrol on 15 December 1944, and begun the second(and last) war patrol only on 23 January 1945.
Modern confirmed tally it's three victories: Solling (not "Sollind"), Saar, Viborg.

lupodimare89
Member
Posts: 462
Joined: 07 Mar 2013 01:32

Re: Sub K-51

Post by lupodimare89 » 26 Feb 2019 01:28

PS: knowing your interest for Sweden, you could find interesting that on 6 February 1945 K-51 missed with two torpedo salvos two towed barges, and avoided a third attack after having identified the targets as Swedish.

igorr
Member
Posts: 769
Joined: 29 Aug 2009 02:21

Re: Sub K-51

Post by igorr » 26 Feb 2019 04:28

https://historisches-marinearchiv.de/pr ... eibung.php
Much more reliable source for soviet subs, than uboat.net and Wiki

jringbom
Member
Posts: 47
Joined: 14 Sep 2016 10:40
Location: sweden

Re: Sub K-51

Post by jringbom » 26 Feb 2019 08:53

Thanks!

Do you know the whereabouts of the K-51 on the 6 february? (This is really interesting.)

Travkin made the same mistake on the 12 of november in 1944. After a first salvo that missed he planned the second attack and identified the ship a swedish and aborted. North of Gotland.

jringbom
Member
Posts: 47
Joined: 14 Sep 2016 10:40
Location: sweden

Re: Sub K-51

Post by jringbom » 26 Feb 2019 09:08

I followed your advice Igorr!

Its a great site for my research!

So what I understand the K-51 tried to attack the Erna and missed, and then waited. Later the same night it attacked the Ramona. (Basically the same position) and missed? The aborted attack is that another ship?


Cheers, J

jringbom
Member
Posts: 47
Joined: 14 Sep 2016 10:40
Location: sweden

Re: Sub K-51

Post by jringbom » 26 Feb 2019 09:26

Sorry about all the questions...

BUT there was as an attack against another swedish ship. (From historisches marine archive)

O 01.02.1945 13:05 T sw Gute 435 BRT / 58.25n 18.04e

On the 2 of february 1945 Gute was travelling from Gotland to Nynäsmhamn and someone saw a torpedo. The ship turned and torpedo missed. But the site doesnt say who attacked? Is the attacker unknown?

The closest soviet sub would be the L-3?

lupodimare89
Member
Posts: 462
Joined: 07 Mar 2013 01:32

Re: Sub K-51

Post by lupodimare89 » 26 Feb 2019 17:02

Remember to cross-check with sovboat.ru.
Here the list of all classes with individual section submarine by submarine. All in Russian, but google-translator make a decent job.
http://www.sovboat.ru/ship/ship.php3

HM it's a very good site, but some things (mostly Black Sea late operations, but also some Baltic 1944 claims) are a bit mixedup with uncertain-unproved or discredited claims. Still it provide a good list of attacks in a easy way to read etc.

On 2-Feb-1945, L-3 laid mines without attacks reported:
On the night of February 2, the L-3 moved to the Brewsterort lighthouse, where ships from the 2nd battle group supported the defense of the coastal flank of the German army with their fire. The submarine could not attack them because of the shallow depths, but it put 2 mines on the ways of the ships’s withdrawal. Since the mine-dropping device was faulty, the remaining eight minutes could not be delivered.
I dont think the date match with activities of K submarines (re-read them a bit in rush, sorry), but you should double-check on the site.

As general claim, witnessing a torpedo trail, doesn't necessarily means a torpedo attack really happened.
Many similar claims in the fog-of-war.

jringbom
Member
Posts: 47
Joined: 14 Sep 2016 10:40
Location: sweden

Re: Sub K-51

Post by jringbom » 26 Feb 2019 20:06

Cheers, lupodimare89!

Ill look in to it!

igorr
Member
Posts: 769
Joined: 29 Aug 2009 02:21

Re: Sub K-51

Post by igorr » 27 Feb 2019 04:08

jringbom wrote:
26 Feb 2019 08:53
Do you know the whereabouts of the K-51 on the 6 february? (This is really interesting.)
6.2.45 K-51 was on her position north from Pommern bay. From 22.38msk sub three times try to attack same target (ERNA and RAMONA). Third time was abortive attack, in first two sub fired 4 and 2 torpedoes. Place was 55.38 N - 15.01 E.

1.2.45 7 soviet subs was at sea, none attacked, so GUTE's crew made mistake. Place of this "attack" is too far NW from soviet sub's positions.

jringbom
Member
Posts: 47
Joined: 14 Sep 2016 10:40
Location: sweden

Re: Sub K-51

Post by jringbom » 27 Feb 2019 09:20

Yes, your probaby right Igorr. (About Gute) Thanks!

There has been some discussions about this incident as to be a proof that (L-21 attacked the Hansa in nov. -44) the sinking of the Hansa wasnt a mistake by Mogilevskij. GUte and Hansa were both traveling the same route and own by the same company. (There has always been a discussion on Mogilevskijs motive in swedish documents.)

Most common theory in swedish books is that because of bad campaign, and need of repair Mogilevskij attacked the Hansa just to have something to report back home...

I read I some document/ books that the S-7 after the sinking of Margarate and Luleå in july-42 reported the targets as german? Is that true?
(both were swedish but sailing on germany/ore-trade)

Thanks.

igorr
Member
Posts: 769
Joined: 29 Aug 2009 02:21

Re: Sub K-51

Post by igorr » 27 Feb 2019 10:44

AFAIK, S-7 attack transports with not defined nationality. When sub attacked finnish KARJALA at 14.7, commander wrote that ship bore finnish flag. In reality Lisin can "not see any flags" for purpose of course.
Mogilevski was returned back home after only 10 day on position because one mine stuck in her. Unlikely he was so concerned in absence of smtg to report. It was his first battle sortie.

jringbom
Member
Posts: 47
Joined: 14 Sep 2016 10:40
Location: sweden

Re: Sub K-51

Post by jringbom » 27 Feb 2019 12:07

Thanks!

Is it possible to get hands on the actuall attack report of s-7 (Luleå and margareta) or translated transcripts?

So its possible or even likely that Mogilevskij didnt recognize S/s Hansa as swedish?
(He reported german konvoy (?) if Im not mistaking)

What is smtg?

igorr
Member
Posts: 769
Joined: 29 Aug 2009 02:21

Re: Sub K-51

Post by igorr » 27 Feb 2019 16:26

jringbom wrote:
27 Feb 2019 12:07
Is it possible to get hands on the actuall attack report of s-7 (Luleå and margareta) or translated transcripts?
I have no such reports.
jringbom wrote:
27 Feb 2019 12:07
So its possible or even likely that Mogilevskij didnt recognize S/s Hansa as swedish?
(He reported german konvoy (?) if Im not mistaking)
I can't say what was in his mind. Ship was illuminated - so he must be concerned, if she swedish? But M. attack anyway, perhaps thinking "every ship in Baltic is enemy". Later he spotted little warship nearby and so think that attacks "convoy".

jringbom
Member
Posts: 47
Joined: 14 Sep 2016 10:40
Location: sweden

Re: Sub K-51

Post by jringbom » 28 Feb 2019 09:10

Thanks!

No, I understand that only Mogilievskij knows what went through his mind that morning.

But since he stated convoy there must have been at least 2 ships as you say. And according to researchers (myself included) believe that toher ship to have been the Waria/Helpcruiser 4. We have always been harrassed by military researchers that there is no proof of this.
That is why Im doing my best in trying to find some piece of the puzzle in all this.

Did Mogilevskij ever identify the warship in any way?

From what I know he didnt spot the Waria until after the attack. And since he made the log later that day I guess he stated that it was a convoy not lonely ship. (The two ships were not actually traveling together. And the Waria has since always stated that they didnt see or hear the sinking or nothing else that would reveal that the Hansa had exploded. They even stated that they passed the Hansa few hours earlier. (Not true)

If anyone could shed som more light on this incident Id be greatful...

Cheers, J

Return to “The Soviet Union at War 1917-1945”