Attack reports on swedish ships 1940-1945

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jringbom
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Attack reports on swedish ships 1940-1945

Post by jringbom » 07 Mar 2019 11:06

Im interested to know more about attack reports.
Were any of the following ships identified as swedish in the attack reports? From what I understand they were all carried out at night/evening/dark (exept for Landsort on the 31 of feb 1945).

Was there more than one log abord the subs?

1940
5 january Fenris: SC-311, Vershinin

1942
22 june Ada Gorthon: SC-317, Mohkov
9 july Luleå, S-7, Lisin
11 july Margareta, S-7, Lisin
17 august Lijevalch, L-3, Grishchenko (replaced by Konovalov later?)
26 oktober Bengt Sture, SC-406, Osipov

1944
24 november Hansa: L-21, Mogilevskij
31 december Venersborg, K-56, Popov

1945
31 februari Landsort, L-3, Konovalov (Swedish minewseeper, torpedo missed. I included this one since it was military and the only daytime attack?
11 april Ramona, K-56, Popov

lupodimare89
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Re: Attack reports on swedish ships 1940-1945

Post by lupodimare89 » 08 Mar 2019 22:58

Code: Select all

1940
5 january Fenris: SC-311, Vershinin 
Of this i have a question for you with Swedish sources. I have read some scarce reports about a lighthouse pilot-boat used to save people from "Fenris" being also shelled. I am interested about some kind of confirmation, extra data etc. (casualties, degree of damage etc.).

31 februari Landsort, L-3, Konovalov (Swedish minewseeper, torpedo missed. I included this one since it was military and the only daytime attack?
I know about failed attacks on 31 January (off Latvia). She come back home in early February and later patrol was only in March
Area of attack also seems a bit too much close to Swedish coast for a realistic Soviet attack.

jringbom
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Re: Attack reports on swedish ships 1940-1945

Post by jringbom » 09 Mar 2019 16:15

Ill see what I can find on Fenris! My have some additional info. I will be returning to the archives (not this spring though) and have planned to look at the documents of the mentioned attacks and Fenris as well. Ill keep you posted in this matter.

Yes, its quite strange about the attack of L-3 on the 31. Found the info on HMA and had the beliefs that everything on HMA-site was accurate and double checked. As you say, it is quite close to the coast. But I would say about the same disctance (or even farther from the coast )as in with the case of Paula Faulbam?

lupodimare89
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Re: Attack reports on swedish ships 1940-1945

Post by lupodimare89 » 09 Mar 2019 17:24

HM is very good on many things but not perfect in some late events or claims (concerning Baltic, it include some Soviet old claims of mines in 1941, currently disproved. And it include also some mixed-up info of 1945 attacks: it's not really their fault considering 1945 is very poor of confirmed data due destruction of German documents and we will likely never got a 100% clear scenario).

The top site for have a detailed account of each Soviet sub. operation is sovboat.ru (based on Morozov works).
You should try to make a double work: cross-reference of HM with Sovboat. It may take you time but i think could give you the most clear view.

That specific claim of L-3 seems a complete mistake to me and I doubt some soviet sub made such attack.

If you are interested, there are some "close meeting" between Soviet submarines and Swedish warships launching depth charges during the War, but I THINK none resulted in heavy damages to the Soviet submarines. Only real loss caused was S-2 sunk on Swedish mine during Winter War. (previous claim of Finnish mine has been disproved by discovery of wreck).

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Juha Tompuri
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Re: Attack reports on swedish ships 1940-1945

Post by Juha Tompuri » 09 Mar 2019 20:28

lupodimare89 wrote:
08 Mar 2019 22:58

Code: Select all

1940
5 january Fenris: SC-311, Vershinin 
Of this i have a question for you with Swedish sources. I have read some scarce reports about a lighthouse pilot-boat used to save people from "Fenris" being also shelled. I am interested about some kind of confirmation, extra data etc. (casualties, degree of damage etc.).
varjag wrote:Swedish reports of the sinking are at divergence with the reports from Shch-311 of which there are two;
Fenris
Datum: 5 januari 1940
Klockslag: 15.32 Time 15.32 (3.52pm)
Antal omkomna: 0 Casualties 0
Sänkt av: SC-311
Ubåtschef: Vershinin
Vapeninsats: Artillerield med 73 granater (Rounds fired 73)

The translation of this report reads:

"""The ship had loaded at Stockholm for various ports on the northern Swedish coastline. By midday Jan.5th 1940 the position was near 'Sydostbrotten' Lightship - when a submarine was sighted ahead of the ship, which suddenly opened artillery fire. The Swedish flag was hoisted and the submarine was signalled that Fenris has stopped engines and awaited further instructions. The submarine did not appear 'talkative' and the firing continued. Aboard the Fenris the order to launch a lifeboat was given - and the crew abandoned ship. After the life-boat had been rowed some 200 meters away from the shipthe midships deck-house received a hit that caused a fire on board. After an hours rowing the life-boat reached the Lightship, from which the crew could witness the sinking of their ship. (Fenris)""""
http://hem.passagen.se/staste/pang.html

The second report reads

"""Under way between Örnsköldsvik and Holmsund near 'Sydostbrotten' Lightship a submarine is sighted in a distance of a few hundred meters. The submarine opens fire without warning with it's deck-gun. The crew, twelve men and two women abandon ship in the life-boat. The firing continued despite the life-boat being between the submarine and the Fenris. The burning ship drifted aground and sank. Even the Lightship came close to be hit during the cannonade, an anchoring signal-light was damaged. In the heavy seas prevailing, it took the crew about an hour to reach the Lightship.From there they were picked up by the State Ice-breaker 'Atle' and brought to Holmsund. According to reports it was the Soviet submarine SC-311, C/O Vershinin - that sank the Fenris.
A Soviet explanation for the sinking was that Fenris carried a cargo of British and French weapons and ammunition to Finland."""

http://www.faktaomfartyg.se/kalmarsund_IX_1909.htm
viewtopic.php?p=1047826#p1047826

Te first link at the varjags post seems not to work.
The same info can be found at here: http://www.nogg.se/blogg.asp?intShowMen ... ory=112528

Regards, Juha

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Juha Tompuri
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Re: Attack reports on swedish ships 1940-1945

Post by Juha Tompuri » 09 Mar 2019 20:30

lupodimare89 wrote:
09 Mar 2019 17:24
Only real loss caused was S-2 sunk on Swedish mine during Winter War. (previous claim of Finnish mine has been disproved by discovery of wreck).
From where could we learn more about this your mentioned new information?

Regards, Juha

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Re: Attack reports on swedish ships 1940-1945

Post by igorr » 11 Mar 2019 04:04

jringbom wrote:
07 Mar 2019 11:06
9 july Luleå, S-7, Lisin
11 july Margareta, S-7, Lisin
Vice versa: LULEA 11.7, MARGARETA 9.7.
LULEA was sunk in 16.58msk so i think there was enough light in july.
jringbom wrote:
07 Mar 2019 11:06
17 august Lijevalch, L-3, Grishchenko (replaced by Konovalov later?)
18.8
Konovalov take place on bridge 9.3.43
jringbom wrote:
07 Mar 2019 11:06
26 oktober Bengt Sture, SC-406, Osipov
29.10!
jringbom wrote:
07 Mar 2019 11:06
31 december Venersborg, K-56, Popov
This was 29.12. What happend with dates on your side?
jringbom wrote:
07 Mar 2019 11:06
31 februari Landsort, L-3, Konovalov (Swedish minewseeper, torpedo missed. I included this one since it was military and the only daytime attack?
There is no 31th in february. 31.1 L-3 make attack in position 57.16,5 N - 21.07,2 E - this is near Windau (Ventspils). As you see, there can't be any swedish ships. This is error which remain in HMA databank from old times. L-3 attacks transport on 31.1.45, target not identified until now.

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Re: Attack reports on swedish ships 1940-1945

Post by Sid Guttridge » 11 Mar 2019 08:11

In mid 1940 the British briefly took over four small destroyers, which the Swedes had just bought from Italy, and their escorting tanker and brought them into Stornoway (I think). Having had a close look at them they realised that even if they fell into German hands the destroyers were not much of an asset and certainly not worth the diplomatic fall out with Sweden, so they quickly released them.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: Attack reports on swedish ships 1940-1945

Post by jringbom » 11 Mar 2019 09:29

Your right about the dates.
Wrote in stress so thats why some of dates got mixed up.
Regarding the Venersborg and I forgot that there was a difference between the time in moscow and sweden. Altough That would make it 30th so I was still wrong. (Regarding Bengt Sture, reference to an old book.)

Thanks for the info on Konovalov.

What Im trying to make out is just; did the Soviet captains see what nationality they attacked? Or was it more like; These ships/convoy are heading south i.e. germany, so they must be german/german convoys.

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Re: Attack reports on swedish ships 1940-1945

Post by igorr » 12 Mar 2019 03:10

I can't say it for sure. You may ask Miroslav. I think commanders know about swedish nationality in 1942, but not in 1944-45

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Re: Attack reports on swedish ships 1940-1945

Post by lupodimare89 » 15 Mar 2019 14:33

From where could we learn more about this your mentioned new information?
I will try dig more, but sadly i have not signed who gave me this view. I am quite sure it was a Q&A, and not being my top interest i did not further explored. Will update you if i get something.

Anyway, wreck of location has been found, so if one know exactly size and position of Finnish and Swedish fields in the area, can dictate which one.

Thanks for your explain Fenris case. If i am correct, the "Sydostbrotten" was this ship: https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bergant%C ... s_Saavedra , and from reading the text it appears she was indeed hit by Soviet fire: if the anchor-light was attached to her (pole?) and got hit by sharpnel or casual hit.

As extra clarification, it's " Venersborg " or " Vänersborg " in official documents? If ship was named after city, should be "Vä"
https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%A4nersborg

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Re: Attack reports on swedish ships 1940-1945

Post by igorr » 18 Mar 2019 02:55

Lloyd Register say it was Venersborg - so this is official name.

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Re: Attack reports on swedish ships 1940-1945

Post by jringbom » 18 Mar 2019 12:34

Lupodimare.

Yes, Venersborg would be the right spelling. (Same as the Town Vänersborg) Venersborg Is the old spelling of the town.)
Even in modern works about the sinking its actually spelled wrong...

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Juha Tompuri
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Re: Attack reports on swedish ships 1940-1945

Post by Juha Tompuri » 20 Mar 2019 21:42

lupodimare89 wrote:
15 Mar 2019 14:33
From where could we learn more about this your mentioned new information?
I will try dig more, but sadly i have not signed who gave me this view. I am quite sure it was a Q&A, and not being my top interest i did not further explored. Will update you if i get something.
Usually, when a claim is made here, it has even some truth behind it.
lupodimare89 wrote:
09 Mar 2019 17:24
Only real loss caused was S-2 sunk on Swedish mine during Winter War. (previous claim of Finnish mine has been disproved by discovery of wreck).

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Re: Attack reports on swedish ships 1940-1945

Post by Juha Tompuri » 20 Mar 2019 21:52

lupodimare89 wrote:
15 Mar 2019 14:33
Anyway, wreck of location has been found, so if one know exactly size and position of Finnish and Swedish fields in the area, can dictate which one.
I think the one that has the "new information" can easily answer that.

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